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Featured The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Phoneman777, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    If the Christ has set him free, then he is free indeed. So, no he can't. What I mean by this is he won't go back to living a life devoid of repentance. The saved sin, and some fall into grievous sinning. However, they will eventually repent. That's the thrust of John's statement when he wrote Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.[1 John 3:5-10]

    So, if God saves Bob, Bob will sin. Yet, he won't live a lifestyle rife with sin and devoid of repentance. I feel like I am watching the show 'Becker'. :)
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    We deny that Bob will freely choose God before God quickens him. Bob hates God in his fallen state and would never choose to seek Him. That's the thrust of Paul's argument in Romans 8:5-9 and also Romans 3:10-18.
     
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  3. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Recaping this:
    Bob the athiest did nothing wrong. He was just born in a horrible situation with zero way out. God never forces himself on Bob, therefore Bob dies an atheist and burns in Hell for... having bad luck?

    Meanwhile, Mike also doesn't have any freewill either. God did force himself on Mike, something Mike had no choice in, and still doesn't have any real will, cause it's never an option for him to say "no". He's just carted into this life. And gets to watch his brother Bob burn forever.
     
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Why are you so hung up on free will????? You act as if this is your God. You mention this way more than you do the scriptures, and moreso, God.

    God didn't force Himself on Mike, He quickened him and saved him. He was dead in sin and had to be revived before he could love God. Those who love God are born of Him.[John 1:13 & 1 John 4:7]
     
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  5. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Philosophy and devoid of scripture yet again.
     
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sissy, I have done my level best to answer your questions. Now, I kindly ask you to address this...


     
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  7. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    True love is not forced. When you love someone, you give them the choice to be with you or not. Bob doesn't have the choice to be with/love God or not, and neither does Mike. There is no real love here, only force.
     
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  8. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    When God sets a person free- He sets them free. They are slaves NO more. The can stay and love Christ, or they can jump back in the pig pen and worship sin. God so loved the world, that He frees every single person-- so that they have a choice whether to stay with Him or not. He does not force, He does not cage.

    He loves Bob and Mike the same- He offered Bob that gift, that love, pleaded with Him, and Bob declined Him. He offered Mike that gift, that love, pleaded with Him, and Mike accepted Him freely. God's love of Bob and Mike is real. Mike's love of God is real. God is love.
     
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  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Another post devoid of scripture. :(
     
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    More philosophy. You need to learn to exegete more.
     
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  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    John sees his child playing outside the house in the middle of the road. An 18 wheeler is barreling down the road towards his child. In a frenzy, he runs to the edge of the yard, starts yelling, "Boy, get out of the road, a truck is coming!" His child ignores him and keeps on playing. "Son, get over here before you get killed!" He ignores him and keeps on playing in the middle of the road. One last time he pleads, "Son, I love you! If I didn't love you, I would not warn you of the impending doom. Now, PLEASE, get out of the road!" The child ignores and gets ran over and is killed.

    By using your logic, the dad did the right thing. By not coming onto the road and dragging his child out of harm's way, he warned him and left him to make the choice himself. Should the dad be lauded for this? Absolutely not. In reality, he should be imprisoned for being an unfit parent.

    Not everyone is a child of God, salvifically, that is. God sent His Son to die for His elect sheep.[John 10:11, John 10:15 & Ephesians 5:25]
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    You have ZERO scriptural support that God has set everybody free to make a choice. You are making free will your God. Good bye.
     
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    And here we have it people. We see what @Jane_Doe22 teaches. She teaches God came to set us free to make a choice, but not to save us. :(

    Romans 9:13 shoots down her "He loves Bob and Mike the same" schtick. If they're both elect, sure He does, but if not? Not so much.
     
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  14. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    But you add to Revelation and scripture trying to make the passage refer to anything but national preservation.
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    This is about national preservation of unbelievers mostly. Not about salvation of believers who were already saved but few in number.
     
  16. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    But, I thought you guys thought that every choice is made by God...?
     
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  17. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The law measures sinfulness which is followed by wrath. Do you think the way America votes has anything to do with God's wrath on this nation?
     
  18. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    God is LOVE. True love does not enslave or force! True love much be freely given! God is not God without true love, which requires each person to choose. A slaver can never be God.

    As to playing scriptural BB-guns, here's how that will go: I cite "For God so loved the world..." and then you go "no- the world doesn't mean the world, it just means some people", and I say "it literally says world, that means everyone." And you reply "no it doesn't". And it's just people degrading the words of God into BB guns as they fire them back and forth to "prove" their point. I find it to be incredibly disrespectful to scripture and a waste of time. Hence, my not playing BB-guns. Instead I'm going to take a wholistic approach.

    Now would you care to respond to what I said?
     
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  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Anthony,

    I'd still maintain that I'm the one that holds these words to their historical grammatical meaning, that is, the standard way that they were used at the time to the best of our knowledge.

    What did the speaker mean when He said it?

    "Confusing and conflating", love that word set!

    God foreknew what would happen. Isn't that plainly seen?

    God knows all things, omniscience, and has knowledge in advance, foreknowledge. These are fully compatible with each other, and neither causes us to need to change the meaning of the other from the normally understood meaning. One is to know all things, the other to know things ahead of time.

    To change the meaning of foreknowledge into "forechoosing" is in my opinion unwarranted, unsupportable, and does not lead to correct conclusions.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It depends on how old his child is. if his child is old enough to understand the fact that a truck is coming, and he should get out of the way, then the father did everything that he needed to do; and the son in the analogy is completely responsible for not getting out of the way of the truck and for his own death.

    If the child is too young to understand this, what is he doing in the middle of the road in the first place? Seems to me like he should have been kept in the house, in a crib or something.
     
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