The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

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SovereignGrace

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...or obligation.

And to "them" if he doesn't do this, he can't be God because God must bow to what rules they've given him. If not, they pull their Romans 9:20 card, because there is no way God is fair.

In other words, they can't be having God be God.
Yes. Obligation is the better word choice. Spot on post.
 

marks

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...or obligation.

And to "them" if he doesn't do this, he can't be God because God must bow to what rules they've given him. If not, they pull their Romans 9:20 card, because there is no way God is fair.

In other words, they can't be having God be God.

The fallacy here is declaring this doctrine to be rules that I've made up, instead, I declare it to be what I've learned from Scripture.

Argue against making up rules as if anyone could force God into anything, and I will argue with you.

That's what makes this a Straw Man.

I'm not proposing making up rules to Lord over God - how ridiculous the idea!

But argue against what I post from Scripture, then we're having discussion.

Much love!
 
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SovereignGrace

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You are posting passages that say God chooses, but I'm asking what is the criteria by which He chooses? I believe the Bible tells us. He loves us all, and so He reconciled all of us. Having reconciled all of us, and said that He wants all of us, this is His choice, and His criteria is who will actually want to be with Him.

Much love!
God’s choices are based upon Himself, not fallen mankind. Not all are reconciled my friend. To be reconciled means to be made friends when once they were enemies. Many die lost.
 

marks

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God is not beholden to man. Faith and grace are both gift of God. God doesn’t offer grace, He bestows it to whomever He wills.

Yes, on whom He wills. Whom does He will? And where do you find this taught?

You already know my answer. I believe Scripture teaches us God's criteria. Do you?

Much love!
 

SovereignGrace

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Yes, on whom He wills. Whom does He will? And where do you find this taught?

You already know my answer. I believe Scripture teaches us God's criteria. Do you?

Much love!
Whom He wills. Yes. But it’s not, “Well, God sees this one has faith, so He bestows grace upon them.” Those who have faith have His grace already bestowed upon them.
 

marks

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God’s choices are based upon Himself, not fallen mankind. Not all are reconciled my friend. To be reconciled means to be made friends when once they were enemies. Many die lost.

But God says all were reconciled. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And having reconciled all, He gives the open invitation, more than that, urging you, the reader, the hearer, be reconciled to God. He truly loves us all! But not all love God.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Whom He wills. Yes. But it’s not, “Well, God sees this one has faith, so He bestows grace upon them.” Those who have faith have His grace already bestowed upon them.

Then what? Where is it?

And btw . . . "Well, God sees this one has faith, so He bestows grace upon them", that's not what I'm saying . . . rather, God offers faith to us, the opportunity to believe in Him, wanting that we would want Him though He knows not all do.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Let me ask a general question . . . should this doctrinal disagreement divide?

Not saying anyone is being divisive, but what is the importance level of this doctrine?

Much love!
 
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SovereignGrace

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But God says all were reconciled. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And having reconciled all, He gives the open invitation, more than that, urging you, the reader, the hearer, be reconciled to God. He truly loves us all! But not all love God.

Much love!
Not everyone is reconciled to God.

Reconciled:

—restore friendly relations between.
—cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.

The lost are at enmity(have an ill-will towards) with God. They hate God, are hostile towards God. Those who die lost we not reconciled to God.
 

SovereignGrace

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Then what? Where is it?

And btw . . . "Well, God sees this one has faith, so He bestows grace upon them", that's not what I'm saying . . . rather, God offers faith to us, the opportunity to believe in Him, wanting that we would want Him though He knows not all do.

Much love!
Ephesians 2:8-9

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a gift of God, just as much as grace is. It is given, not offered.
 

SovereignGrace

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Let me ask a general question . . . should this doctrinal disagreement divide?

Not saying anyone is being divisive, but what is the importance level of this doctrine?

Much love!
Yes. Theology brings ppl together, but it also divides. We teach salvation is all of God, the other side posits God + what they do = salvation.

Huge chasm betwixt the two.
 

marks

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Ephesians 2:8-9

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is a gift of God, just as much as grace is. It is given, not offered.

In Ephesian 2, if you use the syntax to interpret the passage, the free gift referred to in the verse is salvation itself.

Why are you so very certain that God does not want all to be saved?

What did He make people for?

Much love!
 
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marks

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Yes. Theology brings ppl together, but it also divides. We teach salvation is all of God, the other side posits God + what they do = salvation.

Huge chasm betwixt the two.

Is it possible that one side can be mistaken on the mechanics, but still reborn?
 
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marks

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Not everyone is reconciled to God.

Reconciled:

—restore friendly relations between.
—cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.

The lost are at enmity(have an ill-will towards) with God. They hate God, are hostile towards God. Those who die lost we not reconciled to God.

2 Corinthian 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Here God says that He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and now urges us to be reconciled to Him. Why does He say this?

Much love!
 
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Phoneman777

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But you add to Revelation and scripture trying to make the passage refer to anything but national preservation.
I can well assure you that a "right to the "Tree of Life" and permission to "enter in through the gates into the city" ain't talking about no Earthy city, and it's dishonest to insist that. The Tree of Life is in the "paradise" of God and the "paradise" of God is from which the "River of Life" flows (not some underground chamber of the dead, as some teach), so yes, Revelation 22:14 is most definitely talking about the heavenly hereafter, not the here and now.
 
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Nancy

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Let me ask a general question . . . should this doctrinal disagreement divide?

Not saying anyone is being divisive, but what is the importance level of this doctrine?

Much love!

To me, personally speaking, the "importance level of this doctrine" is that is can and does strip many of hope! Not to mention that, even IF they raised their child up "in the way they should go", it would matter not as, the decision has already been made for that child. IF that child is one of the "elect", they will come to Christ and if not, they will burn in hell, as...it was foreordained that that child should burn in hell way before they were born, whether or not they ask Jesus and the Spirit of God to come into their hearts. And yes, even baby's still born...straight to Hell if they were NOT chosen as "the elect" before the foundations of the earth.
It also really minimizes evangelism...some proponents refuse to evangelize, not all...but some.
 
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SovereignGrace

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2 Corinthian 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Here God says that He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and now urges us to be reconciled to Him. Why does He say this?

Much love!
World does not mean everybody w/o exception.

We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.[1 John 5:19] It says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. That’s the lost in proper context, not everybody w/o exception.
 
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marks

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To me, personally speaking, the "importance level of this doctrine" is that is can and does strip many of hope! Not to mention that, even IF they raised their child up "in the way they should go", it would matter not as, the decision has already been made for that child. IF that child is one of the "elect", they will come to Christ and if not, they will burn in hell, as...it was foreordained that that child should burn in hell way before they were born, whether or not they ask Jesus and the Spirit of God to come into their hearts. And yes, even baby's still born...straight to Hell if they were NOT chosen as "the elect" before the foundations of the earth.
It also really minimizes evangelism...some proponents refuse to evangelize, not all...but some.
And to what purpose the suffering in the present time?
 

SovereignGrace

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In Ephesian 2, if you use the syntax to interpret the passage, the free gift referred to in the verse is salvation itself.

Why are you so very certain that God does not want all to be saved?

What did He make people for?

Much love!
You missed my point. Faith is just as much a gift of God as grace is.
 
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