The Frightening Reality About Sin and Repentance

[BeforeThereWas]

There's a frightening reality in the Christian life these days that few dare to admit nor discuss.

So many cry over their sins, feel deeply moved in a religious services, walk to the front while moved by an emotional song; they even soak their rarely opened Bibles with tears and still never actually repent (change of mind).

They know how to be broken in the moment, but they don't change enough to refrain from the same sins in the week or month that follow. They feel real bad inside. They say to the Lord that they're so very sorry. They promise God that this time, this time indeed, it will all be different, and yet the pattern of their sinful lives repeats again and again and again.

The emotions are always so strong at the realization that they've yet fallen again from those same sins, but the chains of bondage remain intact and constraining. The sin returns like a familiar visitor, like an unwelcome guest, and yet they open the door wide because, in truth, they've never moved out of the house where all those sins live.

They have grown fluent in sorrowful shows before the eyes of others and even their own image in the mirror, but they are still a stranger to true, lasting repentance.
Charles Spurgeon once warned that there is a pseudo-repentance that needs to be repented of in so many lives. He wasn't necessarily mocking all the shed tears, he was exposing a shallow kind of sorrow that leaves the heart untouched to the depths of one's being. Sin-scape overflowing through so many lives can fill altars, but it doesn't empty strongholds. It can produce convulsive weeping without killing a single sin. This kind of false repentance is not a minor weakness. It's a deadly self-deception to a life desiring righteousness, but never seeming capable of finding and embracing it.

What are your experiences with this phenomenon? I'm not looking for open confessions here. It's between you and the Lord, but speaking of this ever so common problem in these bodies of death and sin we occupy, what have you learned about yourself in how to beat down and utterly defeat the sins in your life that were so hard to defeat...IF you have indeed defeated those recurring sins?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Our desperately wicked hearts convince us that because we feel convicted, we must be changing for the good. We mistake pain for progress, emotion for conversion, a trembling moment for a transformed life.

Think about how this has played out in your own story. How many times have you cried over the same failure, lust, bitterness, dishonesty, compromise, only to return to some or all of it as soon as the feelings of shame fade? How many late night prayers, how many never again promises? How many emotional worship moments have we all lived without any real change in our habits, our boundaries, our choices in secret?

If our repentance is always intense but never effective, the problem isn't that grace is weak. The problem is that our repentance is not real. We have learned to feel crushed without ever learning to be changed.

The Bible makes a sharp distinction between two kinds of sorrow. In 2 Corinthians 7:10, Paul wrote, "Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation not to be regretted, but the sorrow of the world produces death."
Worldly sorrow cries over consequences, exposure, shame and discomfort. It's sorry that sin hurts, but not sorry enough to leave it.

Godly sorrow, however, doesn't stop at tears. It moves into a decisive turn, a holy divorce from the sin that once defined us. One sorrow weeps at the foot of the cross and goes back to the old life while the other weeps and then burns the bridges that lead back to Egypt.

If you want to know which sorrow lives in you, don't look first at how much you cry. Look at how much you change.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

We have a tendency to build our assurance on the strength of our emotions instead of the fruit of repentance. Tell yourself, "I must be serious about God. Look how much I feel," while heaven asks, "Where is the change?"

The devil is more than happy to let you cry, sing, exude all the religious fervor imaginable, even collapse at the "altar" as long as you get up and walk back to the same darkness afterward. He doesn't fear your tears. He fears your obedience. He doesn't tremble at your feelings. He trembles when the word of God finally moves you to cut off the hand that makes you stumble. Before going any further, let's come to a different kind of honesty. Not, "Did I feel something," but, "Have I left something?" Not,, "Did I cry," but, "Did I actually break with the sin I cried about?"

This may be painful to face, but it is far more merciful to face it now than to discover at the judgment that you mistook emotion for conversion your whole life. If this message is reaching you where you are, take a first small step of light right now. Don't wait, because all of our lives hand from a very, very thin thread, even the lives of the most ardent athletes in the best shape of their lives.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Romans 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Romans 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You answered your own thread, seeing many people weak in their faith who stumble and backslide. This is why the word encourage is mentioned 40 times. The Bible educates us how to deal with this battle going on between the spirit and the flesh. Paul had it -- we all do. We are all in different stages of spiritual walk and maturity. Thankfully, Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. If it depended soley on us, we'd all fail. It is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH that we are saved, itnis a GIFT NOT BY WORKS of our own. The Jews think they can keep the Law. They easily point the finger at the Gentiles as if since chosen by God, they have the goods, they are repentant ... justified. Christ quickly rebuked some of them, called them white-washed tombs, brood of vipers ... and finally cursed them ... "Who will save you from the Gehenna?"
My Dad was an atheists for most of his life or so he claimed. I think he was mire angry at God for not saving his father's; when at ten years old, he got on his knees and prayed to God to spare his father from dying of TB -- and God said no! So this little boy figured there wasn't a God since he did not answer his prayer in the way he wanted. Still, he chose to live by Christian principals all his life ... the Golden rule ... it is better to give than receive, etc. He was a gentleman, mild mannered and did not say a ad word about anyone. You see God did not forsake him. He guided him towards a righteous and good behavior, and was there all along til he came full circle on hisn80's prior to death. He finally turned to God once again, repented.
So, all these folks you see who are weak, making half hearted attempts to repent, die to sin but appear to be returning to their vomit are in a longer process - a work in progress, making incremental advances.
>> If they are His sheep, they will be saved! Jesus is the Author. So it may take a lifetime of failures and then just prior to death, enlightenment and then they fully surrender.
My mother was a rebellious, left-wing, conceded, self- righteous woman who would not submit to God or any man. Oj she was kind, loving and caring for people and her children, but too permissive with me, to liberal, no boundaries and so I became a reblliois hippy back in the 70's. But I butte heads with her ways, left hime andmoved to the opposite coast.I think God separated me from my parents for a reason; though it took me 15 years to have that divine appointment with Christ.
You would rate all these people in your thread more spiritually mature than my Mom. She was into Reincarnation, Astrology, having a spiritual smorgasbord of her own. She thought her goodness could earn salvation. I chipped away at those beliefs for 35 years and a few all days before her death, she was singing about Jesus, telling me His hand was on her shoulder, has been their all along ... we were all shocked! I just about gave up hope. Some people need to stare death in the face before they surrender and God gets their attention.
MOST reprobates rarely go to church, they stay far away from Christ and so Satan has them where he wa to them. There are tares in the Church though, so yes some pretend, put on a show, and are working for Satan - unbeknownst to them.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You answered your own thread, seeing many people weak in their faith who stumble and backslide. This is why the word encourage is mentioned 40 times. The Bible educates us how to deal with this battle going on between the spirit and the flesh. Paul had it -- we all do. We are all in different stages of spiritual walk and maturity. Thankfully, Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. If it depended soley on us, we'd all fail. It is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH that we are saved, itnis a GIFT NOT BY WORKS of our own. The Jews think they can keep the Law. They easily point the finger at the Gentiles as if since chosen by God, they have the goods, they are repentant ... justified. Christ quickly rebuked some of them, called them white-washed tombs, brood of vipers ... and finally cursed them ... "Who will save you from the Gehenna?"
My Dad was an atheists for most of his life or so he claimed. I think he was mire angry at God for not saving his father's; when at ten years old, he got on his knees and prayed to God to spare his father from dying of TB -- and God said no! So this little boy figured there wasn't a God since he did not answer his prayer in the way he wanted. Still, he chose to live by Christian principals all his life ... the Golden rule ... it is better to give than receive, etc. He was a gentleman, mild mannered and did not say a ad word about anyone. You see God did not forsake him. He guided him towards a righteous and good behavior, and was there all along til he came full circle on hisn80's prior to death. He finally turned to God once again, repented.
So, all these folks you see who are weak, making half hearted attempts to repent, die to sin but appear to be returning to their vomit are in a longer process - a work in progress, making incremental advances.
>> If they are His sheep, they will be saved! Jesus is the Author. So it may take a lifetime of failures and then just prior to death, enlightenment and then they fully surrender.
My mother was a rebellious, left-wing, conceded, self- righteous woman who would not submit to God or any man. Oj she was kind, loving and caring for people and her children, but too permissive with me, to liberal, no boundaries and so I became a reblliois hippy back in the 70's. But I butte heads with her ways, left hime andmoved to the opposite coast.I think God separated me from my parents for a reason; though it took me 15 years to have that divine appointment with Christ.
You would rate all these people in your thread more spiritually mature than my Mom. She was into Reincarnation, Astrology, having a spiritual smorgasbord of her own. She thought her goodness could earn salvation. I chipped away at those beliefs for 35 years and a few all days before her death, she was singing about Jesus, telling me His hand was on her shoulder, has been their all along ... we were all shocked! I just about gave up hope. Some people need to stare death in the face before they surrender and God gets their attention.
MOST reprobates rarely go to church, they stay far away from Christ and so Satan has them where he wa to them. There are tares in the Church though, so yes some pretend, put on a show, and are working for Satan - unbeknownst to them.

That's quite a testimony. As to an answer, I don't think I gave one because there's no singular answer for all people at all times. Experiences in life for different people span such a large field of specifics, and yet it's one Lord who died for us all, whether a man murdered a million people and was forgiven or lived a saintly life by the standards of fallen man, being saved to the uttermost, sealed by Holy Spirit, no matter what, that is what makes the Lord worthy of our praise and worship. Gentiles no longer have to join with Israel for salvation, but now salvation is come unto the Gentiles and Jews alike.

Glad to hear that your folks responded to the calling of the Lord upon them. Unfortunately, such gives many young people the idea they have until their old age to make up their minds to give their lives over to the Lord, which has proven untrue for many through the centuries given that all of life hangs from a very thin thread for all, and putting off that decision until some future point that none ever know for sure they will arrive at, that's just plain foolishness.

TODAY is the day of decision, not tomorrow or in old age. believing in Paul's Gospel of Grace is paramount for this very day for all who are not there and for those who are not yet stablished.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

We have been afforded such great and glorious deliverance for all who believe upon the gospel as preached by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. No demands for works of effort, just believing and allowing His sanctifying Power to work in each life. Backsliding and all the other jargon of religious clichés we hear so much about, the one thing that's most important is:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Some transliterate that into oblivion in order to try and make scripture out to say what they want it to say in alignment with their personal beliefs rather than to accept what scripture says in the clarity of its inspired words.

My aim, then, wasn't to give an answer to sin so much as to help others with the struggle against the sin in our members, which the Lord helps us to fight so long as we ask.

Amen

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I'm still waiting for anyone, and I mean anyone who believes salvation is not everlasting through the seal of Holy Spirit but can be lost, what is that threshold? The belief in that concept of that alleged loss is strong and prolific among Evangelicals and Charismatics elike and yet its defenders continue to fail in showing to us that threshold!

Tell you what...all who believe in loss of salvation please write down every thought you have throughout each day for a month and then read them to your churchianity congregation at the end of that month (IF your pastor would allow such, which he won't as an attempt at a backing to his own false teachings) and watch how fast your sainthood disappears in the eyes of all those around you with THEM doubting YOUR salvation...that is, IF you were honest enough to write down all your thoughts, good and bad, and read them out loud for all to hear. Do you think that would gauge your level of self-righteousness in any ability to demonstrate a continuance in any assurance of your salvation on the basis of YOUR efforts of works?

Dare anyone in that camp be honest, they have no clue where that alleged threshold can be legitimately drawn in the sands of each individual's subjective measure for salvation apart from grace through faith alone.

Everybody is expert at coming up with extreme hypotheticals as to sin and "obvious" loss of salvation (robbing banks, murder, rape, et al) but dare they look at their own works of effort, the only honest assessment to admit is that their beliefs cannot be anything but based upon abstinence from sins, which leads only to a works-based salvation system of belief. The followers of works-based salvation have no way of knowing if they are saved by even the subjective standard of their own beliefs, may of whom had it taught to them by their false teaching pastors who know so little about the scriptures from which they do NOT preach.

Come on! Where are you people? Where's your courage and your assurance for your beliefs? Are you lacking in that much of the voracity to back it all up out in the open for all to see?

If you had anything whatsoever to add to the TOTAL sufficiency in the shed Blood of Christ Jesus, where's your courage and your assurance in your beliefs?

Where's that threshold? You can't possibly be serious about your own salvation dare you hang from the cliffs of that false belief system that you can't even defend from the scriptures you claim to believe without pointing back to those who were under the Mosaic Law all the way up to the cross!

School us all on just how righteous you are on the basis of your alleged abstinence from sin that theoretically assures your salvation on the basis of your own efforts! What manner of righteousness is that? Please explain it to us all.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

There's a frightening reality in the Christian life these days that few dare to admit nor discuss.

So many cry over their sins, feel deeply moved in a religious services, walk to the front while moved by an emotional song; they even soak their rarely opened Bibles with tears and still never actually repent (change of mind).

They know how to be broken in the moment, but they don't change enough to refrain from the same sins in the week or month that follow. They feel real bad inside. They say to the Lord that they're so very sorry. They promise God that this time, this time indeed, it will all be different, and yet the pattern of their sinful lives repeats again and again and again.

The emotions are always so strong at the realization that they've yet fallen again from those same sins, but the chains of bondage remain intact and constraining. The sin returns like a familiar visitor, like an unwelcome guest, and yet they open the door wide because, in truth, they've never moved out of the house where all those sins live.

They have grown fluent in sorrowful shows before the eyes of others and even their own image in the mirror, but they are still a stranger to true, lasting repentance.
Charles Spurgeon once warned that there is a pseudo-repentance that needs to be repented of in so many lives. He wasn't necessarily mocking all the shed tears, he was exposing a shallow kind of sorrow that leaves the heart untouched to the depths of one's being. Sin-scape overflowing through so many lives can fill altars, but it doesn't empty strongholds. It can produce convulsive weeping without killing a single sin. This kind of false repentance is not a minor weakness. It's a deadly self-deception to a life desiring righteousness, but never seeming capable of finding and embracing it.

What are your experiences with this phenomenon? I'm not looking for open confessions here. It's between you and the Lord, but speaking of this ever so common problem in these bodies of death and sin we occupy, what have you learned about yourself in how to beat down and utterly defeat the sins in your life that were so hard to defeat...IF you have indeed defeated those recurring sins?

BTW

God has set before ALL people "life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19 first by Moses unto Israel, then by Jesus unto all nations and people Matthew 16:13-17).

In other words--We all have a choice to make--and that choice should be apparent in our life after we have made it. After which we are known "by our fruits"--even, or especially, by God for salvation.

Which does not mean we are actually able to "go and sin no more." That saying was said by Jesus before salvation had come...and certainly, that is what we should all try our best to do. But even Paul expressed his lack of success in the struggle to actually be holy even though that was what he wanted to do (Romans 7:15). However, he also eluded to why he too found it to be impossible, which he did speaking of the order by which salvation would come to those saved, with the phrase, "we who are alive and remain" specifically regarding those of us who are born again of the spirit of God. Which is to say, we who are alive in God and yet remain in this world in our bodies of sin. This--in all of God's greater salvation plans for humanity--is a totally unique existence requiring "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27)--walking with you--to even endure to the end. Interestingly, "enduring to the end" is a quote from Jesus speaking to Israel--speaking of the end of His own life and theirs, soon to come. Not such a long wait, but it did end thousands of years of waiting before salvation eventually came. After which came "Christ in you" to see us through, beginning at Pentecost.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

God has set before ALL people "life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19 first by Moses unto Israel, then by Jesus unto all nations and people Matthew 16:13-17).

In other words--We all have a choice to make--and that choice should be apparent in our life after we have made it. After which we are known "by our fruits"--even, or especially, by God for salvation.

Which does not mean we are actually able to "go and sin no more." That saying was said by Jesus before salvation had come...and certainly, that is what we should all try our best to do. But even Paul expressed his lack of success in the struggle to actually be holy even though that was what he wanted to do (Romans 7:15). However, he also eluded to why he too found it to be impossible, which he did speaking of the order by which salvation would come to all people, with the phrase, "we who are alive and remain" specifically regarding those of us who are born again of the spirit of God. Which is to say, we who are alive in God and yet remain in this world in our bodies of sin. This--in all of God's greater salvation plans for humanity--is a totally unique existence requiring "Christ in you" (Colossians 1:27)--walking with you--to even endure to the end. Interestingly, "enduring to the end" is a quote from Jesus speaking to Israel--speaking of the end His own life and theirs, soon to come. Which ended thousands of years of waiting for salvation. After which came "Christ in you" to see us through, beginning at Pentecost.

When the text spoke of ALL people, that was inclusive of unbelievers. The test doesn't contain the definite article "the" people, but speaks of people in a totally expansive grammatical construct. Those who were instructed that they must endure unto the end are those who will live during the tribulation and who were under the Law. That is not for us today since we will not be in the tribulation nor are living under the Law.

I just wanted to inject the distinctions that are actually laid out in the contexts from which you quoted and referenced only in small part. It's too easy for others to be misled in the exclusions of contextual detail.

In other words, salvation in the lives of the truly saved is not a matter of retention through endurance.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

When the text spoke of ALL people, that was inclusive of unbelievers. The test doesn't contain the definite article "the" people, but speaks of people in a totally expansive grammatical construct. Those who were instructed that they must endure unto the end are those who will live during the tribulation and who were under the Law. That is not for us today since we will not be in the tribulation nor are living under the Law.

I just wanted to inject the distinctions that are actually laid out in the contexts from which you quoted and referenced only in small part. It's too easy for others to be misled in the exclusions of contextual detail.

In other words, salvation in the lives of the truly saved is not a matter of retention through endurance.

BTW

Indeed, "salvation in the lives of the truly saved is not a matter of retention through endurance."

However, I would caution the use of "context" in defining biblical matters, as seemingly breaking context is biblically acceptable by example in the scriptures themselves.

As far as the law goes, God's law was broken in the garden, and thus is applicable to all. The same is true of tribulation--and "great tribulation" such as has ever been or shall ever be--that "great tribulation" came upon Christ, for there is none that could or should be considered greater. But "context" would seem to deny that, against the greater truth from God.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Indeed, "salvation in the lives of the truly saved is not a matter of retention through endurance."

However, I would caution the use of "context" in defining biblical matters, as seemingly breaking context is biblically acceptable by example in the scriptures themselves.

As far as the law goes, God's law was broken in the garden, and thus is applicable to all. The same is true of tribulation--and "great tribulation" such as has ever been or shall ever be--that "great tribulation" came upon Christ, for there is none that could or should be considered greater. But "context" would seem to deny that, against the greater truth from God.

Context is king within the realm of Hermeneutics. Exclusion of that renders the texts totally subjective, which does indeed appeal to our flesh.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

Context is king within the realm of Hermeneutics. Exclusion of that renders the texts totally subjective, which does indeed appeal to our flesh.

BTW

No, that's backwards. It is the flesh that gravitates toward literary rules as if this world and it's rules were not subject to God's greater rules. Which then becomes like the law and the complete misunderstanding of the greater meaning and purpose for it. It becomes a measure of fences and cross fences, not governed by God, but by men's rules and teaching according to their own understanding.

Context comes from literary study--the study of language--language "confused" by God. Why? So, those who would climb up by such means would be confounded.

To the contrary, the New Testament / Church age was to be one of the Spirit. The words are spirit.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

No, that's backwards. It is the flesh that gravitates toward literary rules as if this world and it's rules were not subject to God's greater rules. Which then becomes like the law and the complete misunderstanding of the greater meaning and purpose for it. It becomes a measure of fences and cross fences, not governed by God, but by men's rules and teaching according to their own understanding.

Context comes from literary study--the study of language--language "confused" by God. Why? So, those who would climb up by such means would be confounded.

To the contrary, the New Testament / Church age was to be one of the Spirit. The words are spirit.

So, how do you know what scripture is saying? How can anyone else know for sure that your understanding of a passage or passages is true to God's intent? It's one thing for the parables of Jesus being cryptic to hide the meaning from His enemies, but quite another to say that He also inspired cryptic passaging to confound His followers. Why would He inspire what cannot be trusted to mean what it says? Where is that taught in scripture because I can quote Paul stating the exact opposite.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

So, how do you know what scripture is saying? How can anyone else know for sure that your understanding of a passage or passages is true to God's intent? It's one thing for the parables of Jesus being cryptic to hide the meaning from His enemies, but quite another to say that He also inspired cryptic passaging to confound His followers. Why would He inspire what cannot be trusted to mean what it says? Where is that taught in scripture because I can quote Paul stating the exact opposite.

BTW

The key or cypher to scripture is not literary (confused language study), but is spiritual. That is His flaming sword of guarding.

But God does not confound or confuse His followers, but rather has come to give us the keys to the kingdom...and what does He say? "Not flesh and blood", not "language", but only what is revealed by "My Father who is in heaven"; and of course by those whom He sends..."some prophets", to one by "the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit"--but with the warning that many are also false.

Which means by God's own example and word, saying, "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual"--the scriptures were "first" ("natural") and thus to be considered elementary and foundational, but the spiritual "afterward" and the finish of "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." --Which Paul did not contradict himself to say.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So, how do you know what scripture is saying? How can anyone else know for sure that your understanding of a passage or passages is true to God's intent? It's one thing for the parables of Jesus being cryptic to hide the meaning from His enemies, but quite another to say that He also inspired cryptic passaging to confound His followers. Why would He inspire what cannot be trusted to mean what it says? Where is that taught in scripture because I can quote Paul stating the exact opposite.

BTW

Excellent thread...following with interest...

It’s amazing how people pull back when you get personal.....it’s easy to judge others from a safe distance but when it all hits the wire....it’s really only about us....how are we personally adhering to Christ’s teachings in our own lives 24/7?
Do the crocodile tears mean anything if the behaviour doesn’t change?

We will all be judged individually, not just collectively, so wearing a label or belonging to a certain denomination is not what Christianity is all about....but it’s not about the ‘lone rangers’ either.

Paul said that we need a brotherhood with whom to meet for worship and to share a love we have in common for the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Heb 10:24-25) We would all hold to the same beliefs and practices (1 Cor 1:10) because God is the one who “draws” us to his truth. (John 6:44; 65) There is only one.

Those drawn to that truth will then develop a strong distaste for what God hates. They will fortify themselves with a truth that makes the practice of sin abhorrent to them....but always mindful that the flesh is inherently weak....a strong faith can conquer any desire for the sin of the flesh....but only if we continue to feed ourselves on good, healthy spiritual food.

The Father has a spiritual family who come together in worship that is untainted by the false doctrines of Christendom....and being “no part of the world or its false religion.....they are a small, hated minority (John 15:18-21; Matt 7:13-14)...so, who are out there preaching the message that Jesus gave them....”the good news of the Kingdom”....(Matt 24:14...only genuine Christians know what that Kingdom is, why it has to “come”....how it “comes”...to whom it “comes”....and what it accomplishes.
What does the Lord’s Prayer really mean?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The key or cypher to scripture is not literary (confused language study), but is spiritual. That is His flaming sword of guarding.

But God does not confound or confuse His followers, but rather has come to give us the keys to the kingdom...and what does He say? "Not flesh and blood", not "language", but only what is revealed by "My Father who is in heaven"; and of course by those whom He sends..."some prophets", to one by "the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit"--but with the warning that many are also false.

Which means by God's own example and word, saying, "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual"--the scriptures were "first" ("natural") and thus to be considered elementary and foundational, but the spiritual "afterward" and the finish of "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." --Which Paul did not contradict himself to say.

Indeed? Then you believe the written word, the very word Paul stated is scripture good for teaching, reproof, correction and rebuke, you're saying that all can only be done through some spiritual means? What's the basis for that? How can anyone teach it and from it without relying upon some spiritual work in the minds of others to ensure everyone is on the same wavelength (so to speak)? How can we minister to unbelievers what can only be understood through some spiritual means? How do we reprove another on the basis of distrust in the written word on account of it allegedly being only understood and agreed upon by way of everyone being in the "spirit"?

I know many people who claim to be walking and thinking in the spirit, and yet who don't agree upon many things. Where's the common grounding they can meet if not upon and within the inspired, written word of God we call the scriptures? You're proposing something not at all encouraged within scripture. This smacks of Charismatic mumbo-jumbo that's more in the realm of anti-intellectualism than it is in a pursuit of truth along all the avenues the Lord has provided for us.

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in 1 John 2:27 for what it says, but that has more to do with pointing to the final authority over all debates and questions posed, but never a basis for casting doubt upon our ability to read scripture and accept what it states in its literal sense and on the basis of grammatical pointers and rules. Many cults exist because of their having been launched from a very similar platform of doubts cast upon the written word of God as it stands.

No thanks, my friend. What your positing here is unacceptable on the basis of not only the written word of God but also what Holy Spirit has shown to us through the multitudes of ways by which He communicates to us both internally and externally. The results of this hyper-spiritual jargon has led many down the paths of falsehoods and pseudo-spiritual subjectivism.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Excellent thread...following with interest...

It’s amazing how people pull back when you get personal.....it’s easy to judge others from a safe distance but when it all hits the wire....it’s really only about us....how are we personally adhering to Christ’s teachings in our own lives 24/7?
Do the crocodile tears mean anything if the behaviour doesn’t change?

We will all be judged individually, not just collectively, so wearing a label or belonging to a certain denomination is not what Christianity is all about....but it’s not about the ‘lone rangers’ either.

Paul said that we need a brotherhood with whom to meet for worship and to share a love we have in common for the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Heb 10:24-25) We would all hold to the same beliefs and practices (1 Cor 1:10) because God is the one who “draws” us to his truth. (John 6:44; 65) There is only one.

Those drawn to that truth will then develop a strong distaste for what God hates. They will fortify themselves with a truth that makes the practice of sin abhorrent to them....but always mindful that the flesh is inherently weak....a strong faith can conquer any desire for the sin of the flesh....but only if we continue to feed ourselves on good, healthy spiritual food.

The Father has a spiritual family who come together in worship that is untainted by the false doctrines of Christendom....and being “no part of the world or its false religion.....they are a small, hated minority (John 15:18-21; Matt 7:13-14)...so, who are out there preaching the message that Jesus gave them....”the good news of the Kingdom”....(Matt 24:14...only genuine Christians know what that Kingdom is, why it has to “come”....how it “comes”...to whom it “comes”....and what it accomplishes.
What does the Lord’s Prayer really mean?

Interesting post indeed. Thanks for the thoughtful things you brought up.

In your final question, you asked what the meaning is within the Lord's Prayer.

If we read it carefully, apart from trespasses and forgiveness, it's also about the coming of His Kingdom...a Kingdom we will not be here to enter since our dwelling place is in the Heavenly places, as scripture declares. I don't need to assume that I can't trust what the scriptures and therefore an alleged need to try and become "more spiritual" to understand something other than what's stated emphatically and clearly. I'm not speaking of the parables, but rather the clear and precise instruction given to us through Paul in his epistles and the rest of scripture in where it points.

Thanks for sharing. This is really good stuff and I enjoy your thoughts.

BTW

 

[Aunty Jane]

Interesting post indeed. Thanks for the thoughtful things you brought up.

In your final question, you asked what the meaning is within the Lord's Prayer.

If we read it carefully, apart from trespasses and forgiveness, it's also about the coming of His Kingdom...a Kingdom we will not be here to enter since our dwelling place is in the Heavenly places, as scripture declares. I don't need to assume that I can't trust what the scriptures and therefore an alleged need to try and become "more spiritual" to understand something other than what's stated emphatically and clearly. I'm not speaking of the parables, but rather the clear and precise instruction given to us through Paul in his epistles and the rest of scripture in where it points.

Thanks for sharing. This is really good stuff and I enjoy your thoughts.

BTW

As a young person, I often wondered about the Lord’s Prayer because I parroted off the words in church but never understood what I was praying for....I just thought that since everyone said it, it must be important.

Not until someone sat down with me and explained it, did I know what it was all about....it wasn’t a prayer to be rattled off on every occasion as if the words themselves went to God from us with no understanding.

Jesus said “pray this way”...he didn’t say “pray this prayer”...so it was a model prayer, and begins with an address to not just his Father, but to “Our Father in heaven”. Our God was Jesus’ God too. ...and he went on to highlight the sanctification of God’s name.

No one had ever told me that God had a name, but my friend told me to open my little illustrated KJV (given to me by my grandmother when I was 10 years old ) and told me to turn to Psalm 83:18. She helped me find it. And I couldn’t believe what I was reading...God had a name and it was right there in my own Bible, but no one had ever shown it to me before. What else was in this prayer that I needed to know? I wanted to know everything!

The next phrase was “thy kingdom come”....so the Kingdom “comes” to us...we don’t go to it. How does it come? My curiosity was in overdrive now....what is it that comes?

What is a “Kingdom”...?....it is a domain that is ruled over by a king. So where is this domain and who is the King of it?

We know that Jesus has been “given all authority both in heaven and on earth” because he said so. (Matt 28:18) So giving Jesus this authority means that he did not have it before.....and it was given for a reason.

When humans alienated themselves from their Creator, he was right onto it.....there in the garden he uttered the very first prophesy in Gen 3:15. It was a far reaching prophesy that was not to be fulfilled for over 4000 years from the fall in Eden....and then only the first part was fulfilled....with the second not actually fulfilled for another 2000 years into the future. No one knew for sure who the players were in that prophesy, but with the coming of the Messiah, things became clearer.
As Proverbs 4:18 says....

“The way of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, which shines ever brighter until the full light of day”. (NLT)
As time went on more illumination could be expected.

Genesis said that there would be a conflict between two powerful entities...God and the devil....these were to have figurative offspring who would be at enmity with each other over a long period of time.

The devil woul deal a “heel” wound (painful and temporarily disabling, but not fatal) to the son of God at his execution, but God raised his son from the dead, healing the wound and in the process, his blood redeemed the cursed human race from sin and death inherited from Adam....but not immediately.

As time went on, other identities of the prophesy became clearer. The woman, once thought to be Eve was not her at all. The woman who gave birth to the Messiah was the woman...but it wasn’t Mary either.....it was God’s wife-like spiritual family in heaven...the place of the son’s origin. He had come from heaven to give his life for mankind. Mary was the earthly vehicle, but the Son was sent from heaven. God also likened his people Israel to a wife....at times accusing her of adultery when worshipping other gods.

We know who the children of the devil are, because Jesus identifies them too.

To the religious leaders of his day Jesus said....John 8:44-45...HCSB
“You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.“

Again we live in a world where the the religious leaders of Christendom are also teachers of lies, formulated by a corrupted church that began their apostasy at the end of the first century. The people listened to them, and were led away from God, just as they listened to the Pharisees in Jesus’ day....and clamoured for the execution of their own Messiah....and persecuted his disciples. (John 15:18-21)

But Jesus went on to say....
“The one who is from God listens to God’s words. This is why you don’t listen, because you are not from God.”
This has application again today. Those who teach what God’s word does not, are in the same category as Christ’s enemies in the first century. They don’t listen even when God’s own word corrects them....for the same reason that Christ stated.

There is a death blow to be dealt to the devil once all creation has been restored to what God intended at the beginning. The kingdom will “come” and fix all the things that the devil broke.
It is “the government” that is “on the shoulders” of the “Prince of Peace” foretold in Isaiah 9:6-7.
Fulfilling what is written in Rev 21:2-5...

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

Worth waiting for....

 

[ScottA]

Indeed? Then you believe the written word, the very word Paul stated is scripture good for teaching, reproof, correction and rebuke, you're saying that all can only be done through some spiritual means? What's the basis for that? How can anyone teach it and from it without relying upon some spiritual work in the minds of others to ensure everyone is on the same wavelength (so to speak)? How can we minister to unbelievers what can only be understood through some spiritual means? How do we reprove another on the basis of distrust in the written word on account of it allegedly being only understood and agreed upon by way of everyone being in the "spirit"?

You wrote more, and I will go back and read it--but first, you are off down a rabbit hole. We are not the School Master, why then do you need to know the answer to all those questions? I could answer them--as from God--but you will need to take your proper place in order to receive it. For if you were the School Master, or even knew His business, you would not need to ask; and since you do not know, it is good for you to ask questions--but sincerely--as one seeking, not questioning His established method.

But that you may know that I do know the Master's business, I will answer:

• No one who does not know the answer to the questions you have asked is qualified by God to teach, reprove, correct, or rebuke.
• The basis for these things which I have been saying, I have told you already--it is because it is written that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" and to serve the purpose of God now at hand, those who do serve will not remain mulling over the words of pass services like staring into milk after drinking their fill, but for a short while. They will rather "press on", even "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ." That is what the scriptures themselves go on to say.
• As for teaching, has God not given many examples of how teaching is accomplished, from mother and father, to teacher, to professor? Why have you not learned from those examples? And what do you think...that mother and father whose teaching skills are elementary, should also teach higher education beyond their own understanding? And is everyone who teaches, good, or even qualified? But with matters of God, He has His own order and method...and that much is written even in the scriptures that there should be no excuse.
• As for ministering to unbelievers--again, if one is not qualified by God, they have no business teaching. But even an uneducated mother knows to feed a child milk, because milk is provided. This is "natural", which is why the natural comes first..."but afterward the spiritual." And this too is provided--but those who have not, have nothing to offer.
• As for "trust"--there is One who is trustworthy. What more do you imagine is at all necessary?
• As for being in the Spirit, that is the height of which we all are to seek, for God is spirit.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

As a young person, I often wondered about the Lord’s Prayer because I parroted off the words in church but never understood what I was praying for....I just thought that since everyone said it, it must be important.

Not until someone sat down with me and explained it, did I know what it was all about....it wasn’t a prayer to be rattled off on every occasion as if the words themselves went to God from us with no understanding.

Jesus said “pray this way”...he didn’t say “pray this prayer”...so it was a model prayer, and begins with an address to not just his Father, but to “Our Father in heaven”. Our God was Jesus’ God too. ...and he went on to highlight the sanctification of God’s name.

No one had ever told me that God had a name, but my friend told me to open my little illustrated KJV (given to me by my grandmother when I was 10 years old ) and told me to turn to Psalm 83:18. She helped me find it. And I couldn’t believe what I was reading...God had a name and it was right there in my own Bible, but no one had ever shown it to me before. What else was in this prayer that I needed to know? I wanted to know everything!

The next phrase was “thy kingdom come”....so the Kingdom “comes” to us...we don’t go to it. How does it come? My curiosity was in overdrive now....what is it that comes?

What is a “Kingdom”...?....it is a domain that is ruled over by a king. So where is this domain and who is the King of it?

We know that Jesus has been “given all authority both in heaven and on earth” because he said so. (Matt 28:18) So giving Jesus this authority means that he did not have it before.....and it was given for a reason.

When humans alienated themselves from their Creator, he was right onto it.....there in the garden he uttered the very first prophesy in Gen 3:15. It was a far reaching prophesy that was not to be fulfilled for over 4000 years from the fall in Eden....and then only the first part was fulfilled....with the second not actually fulfilled for another 2000 years into the future. No one knew for sure who the players were in that prophesy, but with the coming of the Messiah, things became clearer.
As Proverbs 4:18 says....

“The way of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, which shines ever brighter until the full light of day”. (NLT)
As time went on more illumination could be expected.

Genesis said that there would be a conflict between two powerful entities...God and the devil....these were to have figurative offspring who would be at enmity with each other over a long period of time.

The devil woul deal a “heel” wound (painful and temporarily disabling, but not fatal) to the son of God at his execution, but God raised his son from the dead, healing the wound and in the process, his blood redeemed the cursed human race from sin and death inherited from Adam....but not immediately.

As time went on, other identities of the prophesy became clearer. The woman, once thought to be Eve was not her at all. The woman who gave birth to the Messiah was the woman...but it wasn’t Mary either.....it was God’s wife-like spiritual family in heaven...the place of the son’s origin. He had come from heaven to give his life for mankind. Mary was the earthly vehicle, but the Son was sent from heaven. God also likened his people Israel to a wife....at times accusing her of adultery when worshipping other gods.

We know who the children of the devil are, because Jesus identifies them too.

To the religious leaders of his day Jesus said....John 8:44-45...HCSB
“You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.“

Again we live in a world where the the religious leaders of Christendom are also teachers of lies, formulated by a corrupted church that began their apostasy at the end of the first century. The people listened to them, and were led away from God, just as they listened to the Pharisees in Jesus’ day....and clamoured for the execution of their own Messiah....and persecuted his disciples. (John 15:18-21)

But Jesus went on to say....
“The one who is from God listens to God’s words. This is why you don’t listen, because you are not from God.”
This has application again today. Those who teach what God’s word does not, are in the same category as Christ’s enemies in the first century. They don’t listen even when God’s own word corrects them....for the same reason that Christ stated.

There is a death blow to be dealt to the devil once all creation has been restored to what God intended at the beginning. The kingdom will “come” and fix all the things that the devil broke.
It is “the government” that is “on the shoulders” of the “Prince of Peace” foretold in Isaiah 9:6-7.
Fulfilling what is written in Rev 21:2-5...

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

Worth waiting for....

Your experience is very similar to many other people's experiences with that prayer form. It's worth reiterating that Jesus, in that prayer form, still pointed to the Kingdom yet to come that He stated to His disciples and other people that His Kingdom would come within the lifetimes of some standing in His presence at the time He spoke about that Kingdom. That prayer taught the Jews to focus upon that Kingdom yet to come after the tribulation...a Kingdom through which Israel was to rule, and will rule, the whole world with Christ on its throne. That Kingdom, however, was delayed for these two millennia. The mystery that remained hidden in God and not revealed to any creature was through Paul, a mystery that, as scripture declares, had the princes of this world known to if they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. We today are benefitting from that delay. Isn't that wonderful?

As an Israeli, I would normally delight in the Law as did the twelve, but I do not because I, like all my Gentile brother and sister in Christ, are dead to the Law.

Amen

BTW