The Frightening Reality About Sin and Repentance

[BeforeThereWas]

You wrote more, and I will go back and read it--but first, you are off down a rabbit hole. We are not the School Master, why then do you need to know the answer to all those questions? I could answer them--as from God--but you will need to take your proper place in order to receive it. For if you were the School Master, or even knew His business, you would not need to ask; and since you do not know, it is good for you to ask questions--but sincerely--as one seeking, not questioning His established method.

But that you may know that I do know the Master's business, I will answer:

• No one who does not know the answer to the questions you have asked is qualified by God to teach, reprove, correct, or rebuke.
• The basis for these things which I have been saying, I have told you already--it is because it is written that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" and to serve the purpose of God now at hand, those who do serve will not remain mulling over the words of pass services like staring into milk after drinking their fill, but for a short while. They will rather "press on", even "leaving behind the elementary principles of Christ." That is what the scriptures themselves go on to say.
• As for teaching, has God not given many examples of how teaching is accomplished, from mother and father, to teacher, to professor? Why have you not learned from those examples? And what do you think...that mother and father whose teaching skills are elementary, should also teach higher education beyond their own understanding? And is everyone who teaches, good, or even qualified? But with matters of God, He has His own order and method...and that much is written even in the scriptures that there should be no excuse.
• As for ministering to unbelievers--again, if one is not qualified by God, they have no business teaching. But even an uneducated mother knows to feed a child milk, because milk is provided. This is "natural", which is why the natural comes first..."but afterward the spiritual." And this too is provided--but those who have not, have nothing to offer.
• As for "trust"--there is One who is trustworthy. What more do you imagine is at all necessary?
• As for being in the Spirit, that is the height of which we all are to seek, for God is spirit.

What you seem to have missed is that I reject your conclusion because of the flawed premise you've put forth. You know nothing of what you're talking about here. That ethereal plane of your existence in relation to the Bible is fundamentally flawed given the clarity in language what Paul had to say on this topic. We are ALL on the same level here with nobody being any higher than any other.

I don't go around flaunting my Th.D because I'm no better than anyone else here. I refuse to use that as a battering ram to try and destroy other people's trust in the written word of God coupled with instruction from Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). Trying to destroy in the minds of others the trust we should have in what's written, that's a tool of Satan that has no place in the life of any professing believer. The voracity and superiority of the written word of God cannot become subject to your pseudo-spiritual superiority over others. Assuming you know me is a flaw that only makes you look foolish.

Sorry, but I don't buy your system of belief.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

What you seem to have missed is that I reject your conclusion because of the flawed premise you've put forth. You know nothing of what you're talking about here. That ethereal plane of your existence in relation to the Bible is fundamentally flawed given the clarity in language what Paul had to say on this topic. We are ALL on the same level here with nobody being any higher than any other.

I don't go around flaunting my Th.D because I'm no better than anyone else here. I refuse to use that as a battering ram to try and destroy other people's trust in the written word of God coupled with instruction from Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). Trying to destroy in the minds of others the trust we should have in what's written, that's a tool of Satan that has no place in the life of any professing believer. The voracity and superiority of the written word of God cannot become subject to your pseudo-spiritual superiority over others. Assuming you know me is a flaw that only makes you look foolish.

Sorry, but I don't buy your system of belief.

BTW

How is it that what is also written that I have quoted from scripture, and the greater spiritual reality of God, has escaped you? It is that system that you do not buy.

I know how, for this too is written. But you only cling to the parts you prefer, yes, this too is written.

Meanwhile, I never said the scriptures are "flawed"--you falsely accuse. I said they are elementary--which is a quote from Paul--not my system, but God's. And here I have also quoted your rejecting it. And your degree--what good is a degree in what the scriptures identify as "the teachings of men"--"false teachers" foretold of these times--the cause of "strong delusion?"

You are on notice.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

How is it that what is also written that I have quoted from scripture, and the greater spiritual reality of God, has escaped you? It is that system that you do not buy.

I know how, for this too is written. But you only cling to the parts you prefer, yes, this too is written.

Meanwhile, I never said the scriptures are "flawed"--you falsely accuses. I said they are elementary--which is a quote from Paul--not my system, but God's. And here I have also quoted your rejecting it. And you degree--what good is a degree in what the scriptures identify as "the teachings of men"--"false teachers" foretold of these times--the cause of "strong delusion?"

You are on notice.

I was going by your own words where you stated that context is misleading and not something at all that should be a part of understanding the real meaning within scripture.

Did you or did you not mean what you said?

BTW

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your experience is very similar to many other people's experiences with that prayer form. It's worth reiterating that Jesus, in that prayer form, still pointed to the Kingdom yet to come that He stated to His disciples and other people that His Kingdom would come within the lifetimes of some standing in His presence at the time He spoke about that Kingdom.

I believe that the transfiguration is misunderstood by many. This vision (as Jesus called it) came at a critical time. Jesus had started to tell his followers that he was going to suffer and die in Jerusalem, but they found his words difficult to grasp and didn’t want to believe what he was saying. (Matt 16:21-23)

The vision strengthened the faith of Jesus’ three apostles in preparation for his coming death and also for the years of hard work and testing that would follow for the Christian congregation.

Six days before the transfiguration, Jesus told his followers: “The Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.” He then said....“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Those three apostles saw Jesus in his Kingdom glory....it was a vision of the future, as the Kingdom in that vision was represented by Jesus, (its glorious king) Moses, (the law) and Elijah, (the prophets) the very things upon which the Kingdom was founded. Right from the very beginning, God Yahweh knew how to rescue mankind from the situation that the three rebels in Eden had plunged the human race into. He was prepared for every eventuality.

The apostle Peter identified Jesus as as the sacrificial “Lamb of God”, who was “foreknown before the founding [form of Greek ka·ta·bo·leʹ] of the world [koʹsmou]”, which is construed by advocates of predestinarianism to mean that God exercised such foreknowledge before mankind’s creation. (1 Pet 1:19-20) But in Greek, that is not what Peter said.

The Greek word “ka·ta·bo·leʹ”, translated “founding,” literally means “a throwing down” and can refer to the ‘conceiving of seed,’ as at Hebrews 11:11. This refers to “the founding” of the world of mankind when God created the first human pair, and whose sin occurred before they conceived children.....and who thereafter, forfeited their position as children of God, taking all their offspring with them.

There was no need for a savior before the humans chose to sin. Jesus’ sacrifice was a response to the fall... to their choice of action....it was not planned to take place in advance as if it was inevitable. Had the humans chosen to obey God instead of the devil, we would not be having this conversation.

God’s first purpose for the human race here on planet Earth was wonderful!

That prayer taught the Jews to focus upon that Kingdom yet to come after the tribulation...a Kingdom through which Israel was to rule, and will rule, the whole world with Christ on its throne.

Now we have to ask which “Israel” is that? Whom did Paul identify as “the Israel of God”? (Gal 6:16)
It was not fleshly Israel, but the disciples of Christ who came from both Jewish and gentile origins in accord with God’s promise to Abraham that “all the nations would be blessed” through his seed....who was Jesus. (Gal 3:16)
Paul also said.....”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

So now we have God choosing a new “Israel” upon whom the promises would be delivered....

“However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.” (Rom 9:6-8)

That Kingdom, however, was delayed for these two millennia. The mystery that remained hidden in God and not revealed to any creature was through Paul, a mystery that, as scripture declares, had the princes of this world known to if they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. We today are benefitting from that delay. Isn't that wonderful?

Paul was used in an amazing way by Jesus who chose him for a different reason to the 12. As an “apostle to the nations”, Paul would be used extensively to take Christ’s teachings to the gentile nations. He was not an uneducated fisherman, whom God appointed to preach to the common folk in Israel...to “the lost sheep” Those who were sent to the “lost sheep” were one of their own.....lost and found.

Paul would be “hailed before kings and governors” as a well educated (former) Pharisee....his audience would not have accepted much of anything proffered by an uneducated man.

Paul was not one of the 12, but was accepted by them as an apostle (one sent forth). He was an asset in many ways because his former conduct kept him humble, always mindful of the depth of the forgiveness offered to him by his God. He served tirelessly and endured much hardship in the service of his Lord Jesus.

Paul’s speech to the “men of Athens” was masterful. (Acts 17:16-32)

As an Israeli, I would normally delight in the Law as did the twelve, but I do not because I, like all my Gentile brother and sister in Christ, are dead to the Law.

As an Israeli, were you raised Jewish? If so, what created in you a desire for knowledge of the Christ, Jesus.....a Messiah who never came to fleshly Israel, and for whom they still wait, whilst most of the “Christian” world is waiting for his return.

The law was “a tutor leading to the Christ”...so once the Christ came, there was no need for the tutor. A new covenant was instituted as Jeremiah foretold (Jer 31:31-33) and the old one was abandoned as it served its purpose.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I believe that the transfiguration is misunderstood by many. This vision (as Jesus called it) came at a critical time. Jesus had started to tell his followers that he was going to suffer and die in Jerusalem, but they found his words difficult to grasp and didn’t want to believe what he was saying. (Matt 16:21-23)

The vision strengthened the faith of Jesus’ three apostles in preparation for his coming death and also for the years of hard work and testing that would follow for the Christian congregation.

Six days before the transfiguration, Jesus told his followers: “The Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.” He then said....“Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Those three apostles saw Jesus in his Kingdom glory....it was a vision of the future, as the Kingdom in that vision was represented by Jesus, (its glorious king) Moses, (the law) and Elijah, (the prophets) the very things upon which the Kingdom was founded. Right from the very beginning, God Yahweh knew how to rescue mankind from the situation that the three rebels in Eden had plunged the human race into. He was prepared for every eventuality.

The apostle Peter identified Jesus as as the sacrificial “Lamb of God”, who was “foreknown before the founding [form of Greek ka·ta·bo·leʹ] of the world [koʹsmou]”, which is construed by advocates of predestinarianism to mean that God exercised such foreknowledge before mankind’s creation. (1 Pet 1:19-20) But in Greek, that is not what Peter said.

The Greek word “ka·ta·bo·leʹ”, translated “founding,” literally means “a throwing down” and can refer to the ‘conceiving of seed,’ as at Hebrews 11:11. This refers to “the founding” of the world of mankind when God created the first human pair, and whose sin occurred before they conceived children.....and who thereafter, forfeited their position as children of God, taking all their offspring with them.

There was no need for a savior before the humans chose to sin. Jesus’ sacrifice was a response to the fall... to their choice of action....it was not planned to take place in advance as if it was inevitable. Had the humans chosen to obey God instead of the devil, we would not be having this conversation.

God’s first purpose for the human race here on planet Earth was wonderful!

Now we have to ask which “Israel” is that? Whom did Paul identify as “the Israel of God”? (Gal 6:16)
It was not fleshly Israel, but the disciples of Christ who came from both Jewish and gentile origins in accord with God’s promise to Abraham that “all the nations would be blessed” through his seed....who was Jesus. (Gal 3:16)
Paul also said.....”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

So now we have God choosing a new “Israel” upon whom the promises would be delivered....

“However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.” (Rom 9:6-8)

Paul was used in an amazing way by Jesus who chose him for a different reason to the 12. As an “apostle to the nations”, Paul would be used extensively to take Christ’s teachings to the gentile nations. He was not an uneducated fisherman, whom God appointed to preach to the common folk in Israel...to “the lost sheep” Those who were sent to the “lost sheep” were one of their own.....lost and found.

Paul would be “hailed before kings and governors” as a well educated (former) Pharisee....his audience would not have accepted much of anything proffered by an uneducated man.

Paul was not one of the 12, but was accepted by them as an apostle (one sent forth). He was an asset in many ways because his former conduct kept him humble, always mindful of the depth of the forgiveness offered to him by his God. He served tirelessly and endured much hardship in the service of his Lord Jesus.

Paul’s speech to the “men of Athens” was masterful. (Acts 17:16-32)

As an Israeli, were you raised Jewish? If so, what created in you a desire for knowledge of the Christ, Jesus.....a Messiah who never came to fleshly Israel, and for whom they still wait, whilst most of the “Christian” world is waiting for his return.

The law was “a tutor leading to the Christ”...so once the Christ came, there was no need for the tutor. A new covenant was instituted as Jeremiah foretold (Jer 31:31-33) and the old one was abandoned as it served its purpose.

Sorry, but it appears you believe in some level of replacement theology under the auspices of some "new" Israel. I don't agree with your interpretation of the passages you cited as pointing to some "new" Israel since Israel is...Israel, period.

Jeremiah 3:12-14
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

So, after the Lord divorced Israel, He still considered Himself married to her after having divorced her in verse three of that same chapter. He was never finished with Israel. Reading that entire section of scripture shows to us the reconciliation the Lord desired for Israel, and there's no other section of scripture anywhere the Lord ever declared His absolute denial of Israel forever. This is part of what paints replacement theology for the wicked and evil system of belief that it is.

So, if I have misunderstood your post, please clarify. If I have understood it, then we will simply disagree.

BTW

 

[ScottA]

I was going by your own words where you stated that context is misleading and not something at all that should be a part of understanding the real meaning within scripture.

Did you or did you not mean what you said?

BTW

That is indeed what I said, and is true of the scriptures. Need examples?

 

[ScottA]

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in 1 John 2:27 for what it says, but that has more to do with pointing to the final authority over all debates and questions posed, but never a basis for casting doubt upon our ability to read scripture and accept what it states in its literal sense and on the basis of grammatical pointers and rules. Many cults exist because of their having been launched from a very similar platform of doubts cast upon the written word of God as it stands.

No thanks, my friend. What your positing here is unacceptable on the basis of not only the written word of God but also what Holy Spirit has shown to us through the multitudes of ways by which He communicates to us both internally and externally. The results of this hyper-spiritual jargon has led many down the paths of falsehoods and pseudo-spiritual subjectivism.

According to the scriptures I have cast no doubt upon the ability to read the scriptures, as they are not the end all, but rather the beginning, while the end all is the Spirit. Is that not how you see it?

As for what is actually "literal"--God is literal, and this creation is merely contrived--by God--giving both good and evil form and self-witness before the Judgement. As for "grammatical pointers and rules", they are contrived by men based on their own understanding of language confused by God. Filthy rags under a microscope are still filthy rags.

As for me causing "doubt"--again, this is backwards. On the contrary, what causes doubt is preaching that the words of scripture are not confused by God, when indeed they are--by His own word. After all, what caused Israel to doubt the prophets, or the Pharisees to doubt that Jesus was the Christ? I tell you--it was their learned abilities and their rules! And now, what, you claim your learned abilities and grammatical rules are different? I tell you--they are not! But just as they were offended, you are likely to be also. So...let me ask you, What was missing in the Pharisee's learned abilities--how is it that they missed what was greater? I have given you the answer--but you by your own resentment have lashed out in rejection with accusations of "hyper-spiritual jargon...paths of falsehoods...and pseudo-spiritual subjectivism." Which is history repeating--you (and most of Christendom) repeating their error of missing what is greater--which is to say--you are rejecting the Spirit just as they were--whom is God.

Alternatively, instead of falling further into the trap of confused language and your own learned ability and understanding, it would be better to be silent in church expecting the Holy Spirit to speak having been sent by Jesus, as He said...and how He said.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry, but it appears you believe in some level of replacement theology under the auspices of some "new" Israel. I don't agree with your interpretation of the passages you cited as pointing to some "new" Israel since Israel is...Israel, period.

Paul disagrees with you, as the quoted scriptures show.....why would you disagree with Paul?
“The “Israel of God” was a new “Israel”....sons by adoption, not by birth.

Jeremiah 3:12-14
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

So, after the Lord divorced Israel, He still considered Himself married to her after having divorced her in verse three of that same chapter. He was never finished with Israel.

Jeremiah was speaking about natural Israel here.....what was God’s plea to Israel? He called Israel, ‘back sliders’ and promised not to be angry with them forever.....but there was a proviso....

“Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion”......

Did they repent and turn back to God as a nation, or were Jeremiah’s words speaking about the odd one or two here and there? A “remnant” of the nation whom God abandoned because they had proven to be incorrigible. (Matt 23: 13, 15) Not only did they disqualify themselves, but all who listened to them.

When Israel was released from captivity in Babylon because of their wickedness, (after God orchestrated their release through a conquest by Medo-Persia that no one saw coming,) did they return to their God and to their land? Only a remnant did so, as it was prophesied. (Isa 10:21-23)

The Jewish nation was the leopard who never changed its spots. In all their history, it was one fall into apostasy and false worship after another. Not a history to be proud of. God took them back only because of his promise to Abraham....so, once that promise was fulfilled and his Messiah came, only to be rejected and silenced like all the other prophets sent to her...God was done with Israel.

Jesus told them....
“The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”
That new nation was spiritual Israel...the “Israel of God”....a nation that would keep his commands and obey his laws.

Paul was the one who wrote....
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

So now we have God choosing a new “Israel” to whom the promises would be delivered....

“However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.” (Rom 9:6-8)

Reading that entire section of scripture shows to us the reconciliation the Lord desired for Israel, and there's no other section of scripture anywhere the Lord ever declared His absolute denial of Israel forever. This is part of what paints replacement theology for the wicked and evil system of belief that it is.

What is wicked about God giving Israel so many chances to repent, only for them to fall into apostasy again and again....Jesus gave them the proviso once again...the final one....

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD”! ’” (Matt 23:37-39 CSBA)

What was required of Israel in order to see Jesus again? They had to accept him as their Messiah....the one who came “in the name of the LORD”.
For 2000 years, the natural Jews have rejected Jesus, as strongly today as they always have.....but some will wake up spiritually, and see what the first century Jews saw in their religious leaders.....hypocrisy and false expectations. Individuals will come to Christ out of natural Israel, but the majority will not.

So, if I have misunderstood your post, please clarify. If I have understood it, then we will simply disagree.

We will then have to agree to disagree as I have studied this scenario carefully and do not find anything that convinces me that the leopard will shed its spots in the end.....a “remnant” certainly will, but not the ones who stubbornly deny Christ was and is, the Messiah.

We learn more about Yahweh from his treatment of Israel when they rebelled against him, than in the few times when they actually did the right thing.....what a patient and loving God, not to have done what he threatened to do in his angry response to the golden calf incident.

He said....”So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.”. (Exodus 32:10)....there was offer to make Moses into a great nation instead of disobedient Israel....so don’t get carried away thinking like those first century Jews of whom John the Baptist spoke...

“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8  Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9  Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10  The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Being a ‘son of Abraham’ is meaningless unless you obey God’s commands, accept Jesus as your savior, and become his disciples.
All humans living have been given ample opportunity to repent and follow Jesus.....but not even those who profess to follow Jesus, actually do. They talk the talk...but do not walk the walk...as you are well aware.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

According to the scriptures I have cast no doubt upon the ability to read the scriptures, as they are not the end all, but rather the beginning, while the end all is the Spirit. Is that not how you see it?

Yes, I do.

As for what is actually "literal"--God is literal, and this creation is merely contrived--by God--giving both good and evil form and self-witness before the Judgement. As for "grammatical pointers and rules", they are contrived by men based on their own understanding of language confused by God. Filthy rags under a microscope are still filthy rags.

Wait, now you're intermixing concepts in a confusing fashion. The filthy rags analogy has to do with self-righteousness, not the reliability of the scriptures. I am of the belief the Lord gave to us a reliable translation among many that are not so trustworthy. I don't allow the controversies among them all to sway me from believing the Lord has given to us what is reliable...as a beginning as you pointed out. Yes, the Bible is a starting point, like a sign pointing the way to the One with whom we must have relationship.

Tell me, if not for the written word, how else would we all converse with others in places like this on the various doctrinal topics and point to something more reliable than the claims for spiritual insight in each individual? Many people claim, "The Lord showed to me...," while others will themselves have strong inclinations about an entirely different path of understanding about that same doctrinal topic. What then? If we're to have unity, how do you propose we all weed out those who are pseudo-spiritual and those who are genuine if not for a reliable, textual source that we can point to as authoritative?

As for me causing "doubt"--again, this is backwards. On the contrary, what causes doubt is preaching that the words of scripture are not confused by God,

That is not what I said. My statements, dare you go back and read them for what I said, it was the parables Jesus stated as being "confused" as you say, in order to hide their meaning from the religious leadership. Nowhere it is declared that ALL of scripture is enigmatic or confused...or whatever other descriptor you may cast upon them as a whole. The differences in idiomatic expressions between Greek - English and Hebrew - English, et al, they do exist but are not so far out of reach that we are left to flounder about blindly in relation to the scriptures themselves.

If you're going to lay claim to there being prophets and prophetesses standing among us to filter through the alleged "confusions" in scripture, that too is an appeal to subjective sourcing since you have no way of testing those who lay claim to being of the prophetic genre. I've tested men who were lauded as being prophets and found every one of them to be shams and charlatans...false in every sense of the word, with all their milk toast and wet noodle prophecies they have yammered over the lives of others. Call me a cessationist if you wish, but I have yet to meet up with the genuine article in all my years of ministry and church building.

when indeed they are--by His own word. After all, what caused Israel to doubt the prophets, or the Pharisees to doubt that Jesus was the Christ? I tell you--it was their learned abilities and their rules!

No. you clearly are deviating away from the very narratives of the scriptures as to the cause of those anomalies. That clearly was not a spiritual insight. I have that on good authority from the written texts for what they say about those spiritual deviations of which you speak.

And now, what, you claim your learned abilities and grammatical rules are different? I tell you--they are not!

Then where have I deviated from absolute truth in relation to your personal soap box of spiritual insights? Education is only a tool, not an absolute guide. Your alleged ability to think from spiritual insights has failed you in our conversations because you're not even holding to what I have actually said. In other words, perhaps it's a good thing that you don't teach from the texts given your demonstrated inabilities in your reading comprehension skills right here in this thread.

But just as they were offended, you are likely to be also.

You do indeed conflate your stature in any ability to effectively offend me. Let's stick to the topical discussion rather than to pretend you have some pseudo-spiritual insights into my state of mind and emotions, of which you know nothing.

So...let me ask you, What was missing in the Pharisee's learned abilities--how is it that they missed what was greater? I have given you the answer--but you by your own resentment have lashed out in rejection with accusations of "hyper-spiritual jargon...paths of falsehoods...and pseudo-spiritual subjectivism."

No lashing was perpetrated on my part. The Pharasees were blinded by their own devices such as their state of mind cluttered with pride in their standing among the people, ignoring of the scriptures about Messiah they knew well but did not appeal to by way of allowing those scriptures to hold a higher place in their beliefs, hearts hardened by their own subjective reliance upon superior, educational pride and many, many other items rooted in human, fallen nature. Not all of them were so blind, indifferent, prideful and set upon the path of sinful rejection. If you knew the scriptures, you would know this as well.

Which is history repeating--you (and most of Christendom) repeating their error of missing what is greater--which is to say--you are rejecting the Spirit just as they were--whom is God.

Alternatively, instead of falling further into the trap of confused language and your own learned ability and understanding, it would be better to be silent in church expecting the Holy Spirit to speak having been sent by Jesus, as He said...and how He said.

You do indeed exude the pride of fleshly indifference to what others actually say. By filtering out key items I have stated so that you can harangue and yammer about my inferiorities in relation to your pseudo-spiritual mountain, that is indeed an insult, but not one that will control me into a reactional stance. I pity you.

In summary, I point to this:

2 Timothy 3:13-17
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So, where I have agreed with you to an extent, that seems to not ring a bell in your limited understanding and memory of the things I have actually said. You are free to believe whatever you want and to present yourself as some spiritual giant if you so choose, but I'm not taking the bait to fall in lock-step with your bent upon harangues about the scriptures. They are a tool, the acid test if you will, whereby we can all become useful in the Hand of Holy Spirit for reaching others with the Gospel and uplifting fellow believers into higher stature of doctrinal purity toward unity in the body.

Your bent is simply nonproductive and even counter-productive in a number of ways. I've met others who think as you seem to think from what I have seen thus far, and they are in groupings who pride themselves on their alleged spiritual superiority to the point of cultic frenzy in the realm of exclusivity. No thanks. I will keep my heart and my mind set upon scripture for what it provides while also keeping my total reliance upon Holy Spirit for guiding me in all things as the final authority over it all, and Holy Spirit has not affirmed to me your squeals and whines against the scriptures that are inspired and trustworthy in ways that you seem to reject. That's fine for you but not for me.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Paul disagrees with you, as the quoted scriptures show.....why would you disagree with Paul?
“The “Israel of God” was a new “Israel”....sons by adoption, not by birth.

Jeremiah was speaking about natural Israel here.....what was God’s plea to Israel? He called Israel, ‘back sliders’ and promised not to be angry with them forever.....but there was a proviso....

“Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion”......

Did they repent and turn back to God as a nation, or were Jeremiah’s words speaking about the odd one or two here and there? A “remnant” of the nation whom God abandoned because they had proven to be incorrigible. (Matt 23: 13, 15) Not only did they disqualify themselves, but all who listened to them.

When Israel was released from captivity in Babylon because of their wickedness, (after God orchestrated their release through a conquest by Medo-Persia that no one saw coming,) did they return to their God and to their land? Only a remnant did so, as it was prophesied. (Isa 10:21-23)

The Jewish nation was the leopard who never changed its spots. In all their history, it was one fall into apostasy and false worship after another. Not a history to be proud of. God took them back only because of his promise to Abraham....so, once that promise was fulfilled and his Messiah came, only to be rejected and silenced like all the other prophets sent to her...God was done with Israel.

Jesus told them....
“The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”
That new nation was spiritual Israel...the “Israel of God”....a nation that would keep his commands and obey his laws.

Paul was the one who wrote....
”For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29  But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

So now we have God choosing a new “Israel” to whom the promises would be delivered....

“However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.” (Rom 9:6-8)


What is wicked about God giving Israel so many chances to repent, only for them to fall into apostasy again and again....Jesus gave them the proviso once again...the final one....

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD”! ’” (Matt 23:37-39 CSBA)

What was required of Israel in order to see Jesus again? They had to accept him as their Messiah....the one who came “in the name of the LORD”.
For 2000 years, the natural Jews have rejected Jesus, as strongly today as they always have.....but some will wake up spiritually, and see what the first century Jews saw in their religious leaders.....hypocrisy and false expectations. Individuals will come to Christ out of natural Israel, but the majority will not.


We will then have to agree to disagree as I have studied this scenario carefully and do not find anything that convinces me that the leopard will shed its spots in the end.....a “remnant” certainly will, but not the ones who stubbornly deny Christ was and is, the Messiah.

We learn more about Yahweh from his treatment of Israel when they rebelled against him, than in the few times when they actually did the right thing.....what a patient and loving God, not to have done what he threatened to do in his angry response to the golden calf incident.

He said....”So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation.”. (Exodus 32:10)....there was offer to make Moses into a great nation instead of disobedient Israel....so don’t get carried away thinking like those first century Jews of whom John the Baptist spoke...

“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8  Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9  Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10  The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Being a ‘son of Abraham’ is meaningless unless you obey God’s commands, accept Jesus as your savior, and become his disciples.
All humans living have been given ample opportunity to repent and follow Jesus.....but not even those who profess to follow Jesus, actually do. They talk the talk...but do not walk the walk...as you are well aware.

It appears we need some clarification here. I agree with you in some sense of what you're saying. The "new" Israel, as you call it, is "new" in relation to ancient Israel, but that difference is simply a matter of Gentiles having been graft into the same Vine, which is Christ whose original coming was ONLY unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Ancient Israel is still fully and centrally rooted in the plans God has for mankind, especially throughout Revelation and into the Millennial Kingdom. They never ceased to be who they were in God's plans.

Additionally, Gentiles in Christ and through Christ are also children of Abraham in a spiritual sense of that concept. Gentiles were not graft into Israel, but rather into Christ who is that Vine.

Does that help?

BTW

 

[ScottA]

Yes, I do.

Okay, great, we're communicating!

Wait, now you're intermixing concepts in a confusing fashion. The filthy rags analogy has to do with self-righteousness, not the reliability of the scriptures. I am of the belief the Lord gave to us a reliable translation among many that are not so trustworthy. I don't allow the controversies among them all to sway me from believing the Lord has given to us what is reliable...as a beginning as you pointed out. Yes, the Bible is a starting point, like a sign pointing the way to the One with whom we must have relationship.

Confusing yes, and that is the confusion that I have been hoping you would see is from the words in their literary form. That confusion is simply a part of "all language" including scripture. It is a reality imposed upon us by God, allowing only for passage or understanding by and from the Spirit. Which is that "flaming sword" set by God between the kingdom and this world. Even so, passage and understanding then is attainable, but only by those/His terms.

As for my seemingly intermixing concepts--there is no such mix or conflict within God (in Spirit). On the other hand, the forbidden mix is between the communion of light and darkness, which is therefore divided. Hence the problem of men's rules not allowing for things that simply seem confusing. To the contrary, all that is good and of God is to be mixed--as One. This is also why the scriptures actually include examples of what men would commonly see as a break or violation of context--meaning, such a rule is of men and not of God.

As for the Lord giving us what is reliable--the words of scripture are indeed reliable, but elementary, and yes, beyond that are only pointing to what is greater by the Spirit. A simple perspective, is to look at the words of scripture as what are given and exist "below" and therefore looking "deeper" into the words, is to look downward, rather than upward to God which is done by looking up and lift up our heads. So our nose (down) in the books is only good to a point.

Tell me, if not for the written word, how else would we all converse with others in places like this on the various doctrinal topics and point to something more reliable than the claims for spiritual insight in each individual? Many people claim, "The Lord showed to me...," while others will themselves have strong inclinations about an entirely different path of understanding about that same doctrinal topic. What then? If we're to have unity, how do you propose we all weed out those who are pseudo-spiritual and those who are genuine if not for a reliable, textual source that we can point to as authoritative?

By the written word we are to converse, knowing that the scriptures are elementary as compared with the word in Spirit, elementary discussion is not an issue. And it is also not an issue to express what we only imagine of what we don't actually know but hope for. The only issue then, is making claims based on speculation (unfounded conjecture) based on what we only believe or only think we know. Leaving only those actually sent by God to make claims or proclamations.

As for discerning the difference between what or who is true or false--is it not stated how in the scriptures? Indeed it is--as I am sure you know: "You shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently", "You will know them by their fruits", and "test the spirits, whether they are of God." But know also that "there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction", and also that during this age of the church, the "teachings of men" and the believing of a "lie"--"strong delusion" was foretold. Meaning, that the greatest portion of what has been taught is wrong, while very little is true.

But do take care not to quench the Spirit, for by the authority of Christ, these are the times of His bringing forth the "greater works" He promised.

 

[ScottA]

That is not what I said. My statements, dare you go back and read them for what I said, it was the parables Jesus stated as being "confused" as you say, in order to hide their meaning from the religious leadership. Nowhere it is declared that ALL of scripture is enigmatic or confused...or whatever other descriptor you may cast upon them as a whole. The differences in idiomatic expressions between Greek - English and Hebrew - English, et al, they do exist but are not so far out of reach that we are left to flounder about blindly in relation to the scriptures themselves.

If you're going to lay claim to there being prophets and prophetesses standing among us to filter through the alleged "confusions" in scripture, that too is an appeal to subjective sourcing since you have no way of testing those who lay claim to being of the prophetic genre. I've tested men who were lauded as being prophets and found every one of them to be shams and charlatans...false in every sense of the word, with all their milk toast and wet noodle prophecies they have yammered over the lives of others. Call me a cessationist if you wish, but I have yet to meet up with the genuine article in all my years of ministry and church building.


No. you clearly are deviating away from the very narratives of the scriptures as to the cause of those anomalies. That clearly was not a spiritual insight. I have that on good authority from the written texts for what they say about those spiritual deviations of which you speak.


Then where have I deviated from absolute truth in relation to your personal soap box of spiritual insights? Education is only a tool, not an absolute guide. Your alleged ability to think from spiritual insights has failed you in our conversations because you're not even holding to what I have actually said. In other words, perhaps it's a good thing that you don't teach from the texts given your demonstrated inabilities in your reading comprehension skills right here in this thread.


You do indeed conflate your stature in any ability to effectively offend me. Let's stick to the topical discussion rather than to pretend you have some pseudo-spiritual insights into my state of mind and emotions, of which you know nothing.


No lashing was perpetrated on my part. The Pharasees were blinded by their own devices such as their state of mind cluttered with pride in their standing among the people, ignoring of the scriptures about Messiah they knew well but did not appeal to by way of allowing those scriptures to hold a higher place in their beliefs, hearts hardened by their own subjective reliance upon superior, educational pride and many, many other items rooted in human, fallen nature. Not all of them were so blind, indifferent, prideful and set upon the path of sinful rejection. If you knew the scriptures, you would know this as well.


You do indeed exude the pride of fleshly indifference to what others actually say. By filtering out key items I have stated so that you can harangue and yammer about my inferiorities in relation to your pseudo-spiritual mountain, that is indeed an insult, but not one that will control me into a reactional stance. I pity you.

In summary, I point to this:

2 Timothy 3:13-17
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So, where I have agreed with you to an extent, that seems to not ring a bell in your limited understanding and memory of the things I have actually said. You are free to believe whatever you want and to present yourself as some spiritual giant if you so choose, but I'm not taking the bait to fall in lock-step with your bent upon harangues about the scriptures. They are a tool, the acid test if you will, whereby we can all become useful in the Hand of Holy Spirit for reaching others with the Gospel and uplifting fellow believers into higher stature of doctrinal purity toward unity in the body.

Your bent is simply nonproductive and even counter-productive in a number of ways. I've met others who think as you seem to think from what I have seen thus far, and they are in groupings who pride themselves on their alleged spiritual superiority to the point of cultic frenzy in the realm of exclusivity. No thanks. I will keep my heart and my mind set upon scripture for what it provides while also keeping my total reliance upon Holy Spirit for guiding me in all things as the final authority over it all, and Holy Spirit has not affirmed to me your squeals and whines against the scriptures that are inspired and trustworthy in ways that you seem to reject. That's fine for you but not for me.

Below is what I was referring to about "casting doubt":

Don't get me wrong, I fully believe in 1 John 2:27 for what it says, but that has more to do with pointing to the final authority over all debates and questions posed, but never a basis for casting doubt upon our ability to read scripture and accept what it states in its literal sense and on the basis of grammatical pointers and rules. Many cults exist because of their having been launched from a very similar platform of doubts cast upon the written word of God as it stands.

As for having "no way of testing"...I have already answered and given the scriptures. But yes, many are false--but One is true...and He has outlined in scripture His plans for sending some as His prophets, sending the Holy Spirit even to speak by the mouth of those sent. Meaning that to categorically dismiss every one of those who speak--is anti-Christ.

As for "Nowhere it is declared that ALL of scripture is enigmatic or confused"--you are incorrect. "All language" confused by God, does indeed include the scriptures. You don't have to believe it, but "all" means all.

As for my "clearly ... deviating away from the very narratives of the scriptures"-- How did you imagine that "being guided unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit would come? It is obvious you have preconceived notions. But tell me--if "Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever"...just how would "all truth" come--what is His established method? --I tell you, it is not I who is out of line.

As for your "deviation"-- The deviation is not yours, but those who first taught it--those of "false teachers" early on in the church just as it was foretold to occur--and now you have become "blind" to their devises. Which are those teachings by which you now gauge me rather than they as being off the mark, for which you are now even entered into name-calling. And why? Because you question me...and not those whom you have believed from long ago.

As for the rest--you are not wrong on everything, but obviously have not reconciled all taking into account the foretold "strong delusion" of "false teachers" that came between the time soon after the scriptures were given and what you have come to believe some 2,000 years later. But you have alternatively--obviously--referred rather to the literary meaning of the words that are more importantly spirit. And I have called you on it. Should I not warn you of impending disaster?

Again, just how did you imagine "all truth" was to come? If Christendom was to be lead first into their own Egypt--by what established method would God draw them back--for fulfilling the promise of "all truth?" The reason I brought up the Pharisees...is because this is the part they got wrong.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It appears we need some clarification here. I agree with you in some sense of what you're saying. The "new" Israel, as you call it, is "new" in relation to ancient Israel, but that difference is simply a matter of Gentiles having been graft into the same Vine, which is Christ whose original coming was ONLY unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Fleshly Israel got first opportunity to become part of that “priesthood and a holy nation”, because they alone were God’s chosen nation.....but “chosen” for what?

Yahweh had to bring his Messiah into the world, and he chose Abraham’s descendants to do that. But he promised Abraham that “all the nations” would be blessed by this seed, who was Jesus Christ. So Israel were not the only ones to receive that blessing.....it was always God’s intention to include “all the nations” in his blessings.

Peter wrote to fellow believers...

“As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling,and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”

Those who reject Christ stumble because God said they would....he foretold it.
But to believers he goes on to say....

“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” (1 Pet 2:4-10 ESV)

What do you read there? Who were now, “God’s people”? And who proved by their conduct NOT to be?

Ancient Israel is still fully and centrally rooted in the plans God has for mankind, especially throughout Revelation and into the Millennial Kingdom. They never ceased to be who they were in God's plans.

I disagree...fleshly Israel, as long as they remain alienated from the God they profess to serve, will not ever feature in God’s plans....but the foretold “remnant” of natural Jews, certainly will. They are “one people” with their gentile brothers....one nation, now made up of many nations, who all serve one God, preach one truth, and work shoulder to shoulder to accomplish what Christ taught them to do. (Matt 28:19-20)

Additionally, Gentiles in Christ and through Christ are also children of Abraham in a spiritual sense of that concept. Gentiles were not graft into Israel, but rather into Christ who is that Vine.

Christ is the only “Vine” into which all worshippers of the true God need to be grafted.....no one outside of that grafting are even in God’s spiritual vision until they search for the true God and are “drawn” by him into one truth by the preaching work that they were assigned...bringing them into one united global brotherhood. (John 6:44, 65; Matt 24:14; 1 Cor 1:10)

All must be “no part of the world” (John 18:36) and they must have ‘no blood on their hands’ by supporting their nations wars and political conflicts. (Isa 1:15)

If Jesus told us that in the future there would no longer be any geographical locations involved in the worship of the true God, we can understand that literal Jerusalem and Israel’s former geographical territory is no longer considered “holy” to God...it is polluted because of the bloodshed that has taken place there.....it is to this day, a hotbed of hatred, which makes it abhorrent to Yahweh...hardly a holy land at all. It will be cleansed along with the whole earth, when God steps in with the rulership of his Kingdom under Christ, and fixes everything the devil broke.

God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”....as Jesus taught us to pray for.

Does that help?

It helps me see that we hold some common ground, which is heartening....

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Okay, great, we're communicating!


Confusing yes, and that is the confusion that I have been hoping you would see is from the words in their literary form. That confusion is simply a part of "all language" including scripture. It is a reality imposed upon us by God, allowing only for passage or understanding by and from the Spirit. Which is that "flaming sword" set by God between the kingdom and this world. Even so, passage and understanding then is attainable, but only by those/His terms.

As for my seemingly intermixing concepts--there is no such mix or conflict within God (in Spirit). On the other hand, the forbidden mix is between the communion of light and darkness, which is therefore divided. Hence the problem of men's rules not allowing for things that simply seem confusing. To the contrary, all that is good and of God is to be mixed--as One. This is also why the scriptures actually include examples of what men would commonly see as a break or violation of context--meaning, such a rule is of men and not of God.

As for the Lord giving us what is reliable--the words of scripture are indeed reliable, but elementary, and yes, beyond that are only pointing to what is greater by the Spirit. A simple perspective, is to look at the words of scripture as what are given and exist "below" and therefore looking "deeper" into the words, is to look downward, rather than upward to God which is done by looking up and lift up our heads. So our nose (down) in the books is only good to a point.


By the written word we are to converse, knowing that the scriptures are elementary as compared with the word in Spirit, elementary discussion is not an issue. And it is also not an issue to express what we only imagine of what we don't actually know but hope for. The only issue then, is making claims based on speculation (unfounded conjecture) based on what we only believe or only think we know. Leaving only those actually sent by God to make claims or proclamations.

As for discerning the difference between what or who is true or false--is it not stated how in the scriptures? Indeed it is--as I am sure you know: "You shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently", "You will know them by their fruits", and "test the spirits, whether they are of God." But know also that "there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction", and also that during this age of the church, the "teachings of men" and the believing of a "lie"--"strong delusion" was foretold. Meaning, that the greatest portion of what has been taught is wrong, while very little is true.

But do take care not to quench the Spirit, for by the authority of Christ, these are the times of His bringing forth the "greater works" He promised.

So, if I may ask, in the circles of people you move about within your chosen church and/or denominational affiliation, be it Pentacostal or otherwise, does your grouping practice modern-day "prophet(s)" in your meetings together? If so, do they teach to you this stuff you've been saying here?

BTW

 

[ScottA]

So, if I may ask, in the circles of people you move about within your chosen church and/or denominational affiliation, be it Pentacostal or otherwise, does your grouping practice modern-day "prophet(s)" in your meetings together? If so, do they teach to you this stuff you've been saying here?

BTW

The church my wife and I are presently attending is a bit Pentecostal, yes, but we don't go there for that reason. We go because the Pastor is very good at teaching through the Bible.

As for practicing modern-day prophets, yes they do practice it...but I would not approve of everything they do. And yes, part of that is teaching it as if it were a learned skill--which it is not.

As for whether they have taught me "this stuff" I have been saying--no, they have not. On the contrary, they would not approve of many things I say. But "this stuff" I have been saying--it would be wrong of me to say that it is even me who has been speaking. It's not, and I have no other teacher than God--whom I did not before know but cried out to when I came to the end of myself and my many other attempts at having something to live for--and He answered. In that moment I was caught up to the third heaven--on whose authority I can say that and more--where I heard what for a time was not lawful to speak. After which He returned me to this body and this world, and set me on a course of learning. Then after nearly 40 years, He who had restrained me from speaking freely, released me, prompting me to rewrite the words that were sealed spoken of by Daniel and John--like tablets first broken, to be written again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The church my wife and I are presently attending is a bit Pentecostal, yes, but we don't go there for that reason. We go because the Pastor is very good at teaching through the Bible.

As for practicing modern-day prophets, yes they do practice it...but I would not approve of everything they do. And yes, part of that is teaching it as if it were a learned skill--which it is not.

As for whether they have taught me "this stuff" I have been saying--no, they have not. On the contrary, they would not approve of many things I say. But "this stuff" I have been saying--it would be wrong of me to say that it is even me who has been speaking. It's not, and I have no other teacher than God--whom I did not before know but cried out to when I came to the end of myself and my many other attempts at having something to live for--and He answered. In that moment I was caught up to the third heaven--on whose authority I can say that and more--where I heard what for a time was not lawful to speak. After which He returned me to this body and this world, and set me on a course of learning. Then after nearly 40 years, He who had restrained me from speaking freely, released me, prompting me to rewrite the words that were sealed spoken of by Daniel and John--like tablets first broken, to be written again.

Since you were at a very vulnerable time in your life when this happened….how do you know that what you received was from God, and not from the deceiver, taking advantage of your weak mental state?
He is an impersonator you know. Deception is not discerned until it is….and by then, it’s usually too late.

Do you really believe that you alone are a ‘chosen vessel’? It’s nice to believe that you are ‘special’, but what if your experience has another explanation?

Why do you attend a church whose beliefs you don’t hold to be truth? If the pastor is good at teaching the Bible, then why would God not just reveal it all straight to you via his direct line?

Your story sounds illogical….why would God silence you for 40 years? And what can he reveal to you that he hasn’t already revealed in his word? What more do we need to know?

 

[ScottA]

Since you were at a very vulnerable time in your life when this happened….how do you know that what you received was from God, and not from the deceiver, taking advantage of your weak mental state?
He is an impersonator you know. Deception is not discerned until it is….and by then, it’s usually too late.

Do you really believe that you alone are a ‘chosen vessel’? It’s nice to believe that you are ‘special’, but what if your experience has another explanation?

Why do you attend a church whose beliefs you don’t hold to be truth? If the pastor is good at teaching the Bible, then why would God not just reveal it all straight to you via his direct line?

Your story sounds illogical….why would God silence you for 40 years? And what can he reveal to you that he hasn’t already revealed in his word? What more do we need to know?

Each point one at a time:

• Yes, I know that Satan is a deceiver and an impersonator.
• I know that the One who answered me was God, because the first order of direction (after changing or removing every other obstacle) was to connect me to a Bible and the time to read it cover to cover. Wherein He gave me confirmation that He was the Author of the Bible and also of my experience, as One and the same.
• As for believing I "alone am a 'chosen vessel'"--heavens no, the number of chosen vessels of God are too great to count! But what it would seem that you are really asking is, do I believe I am the one chosen for the task that I have been speaking of? The answer to which, is I have no need to 'believe" it, for He has given me every reason to "know" it to be so. Which, many would just roll their eyes at in response--while at the same time staking their life on the fact that God has been doing just that with individuals since the beginning. Those are who I would question--for to do as they do is a showing of double-minded, hypocrisy.
• As for attending churches whose beliefs I don't hold to be true-- It is because "strong delusion" is epidemic during these times. But, for example, ask also: Why would anyone sent by God go among those whom God sent them--or why would Jesus go to the house of Israel, knowing most wanted to kill Him? It is because, that is the very reason God sends who He sends.
• As for the Pastor, he too is under the foretold "strong delusion" just as has been foretold regarding Christendom in general--much as it was during many historic biblical events where all were affected.
• As for silence for 40 years--it is confirmation according to many biblical events. But I myself, or we of the gentiles--it is we who are not ready and in need of waiting, not God. It is by His grace that He restrains until the times are fulfilled.
• What was not already in His word, was mentioned, in fact foretold as not to be revealed until the time of the end. The question then, is: How does God reveal what He has foretold in His good time? What is His established method(s)? And knowing that He has foretold the revealing of things mentioned but sealed until the times are fulfilled--should every child of God not actually expect it to come--and come according to His method?
• The more that was to come, was the finish of the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets--that was sealed, and only to be revealed at the time of the end.

PS, If you are at all sincerely interested in knowing the details, you should really click on the link in my signature below. Thanks--your questions were good!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Fleshly Israel got first opportunity to become part of that “priesthood and a holy nation”, because they alone were God’s chosen nation.....but “chosen” for what?

Yahweh had to bring his Messiah into the world, and he chose Abraham’s descendants to do that. But he promised Abraham that “all the nations” would be blessed by this seed, who was Jesus Christ. So Israel were not the only ones to receive that blessing.....it was always God’s intention to include “all the nations” in his blessings.

Peter wrote to fellow believers...

“As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling,and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”

Those who reject Christ stumble because God said they would....he foretold it.
But to believers he goes on to say....

“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” (1 Pet 2:4-10 ESV)

Have you noticed how that Peter was speaking to natural and proselyte Israel given that he was not the apostle to the Gentiles? Paul, who was/is the apostle to the body of Christ comprised of Jews and Gentiles,

do you read there? Who were now, “God’s people”? And who proved by their conduct NOT to be?

I disagree...fleshly Israel, as long as they remain alienated from the God they profess to serve, will not ever feature in God’s plans....but the foretold “remnant” of natural Jews, certainly will. They are “one people” with their gentile brothers....one nation, now made up of many nations, who all serve one God, preach one truth, and work shoulder to shoulder to accomplish what Christ taught them to do. (Matt 28:19-20)

Christ is the only “Vine” into which all worshippers of the true God need to be grafted.....no one outside of that grafting are even in God’s spiritual vision until they search for the true God and are “drawn” by him into one truth by the preaching work that they were assigned...bringing them into one united global brotherhood. (John 6:44, 65; Matt 24:14; 1 Cor 1:10)

Romans 11:17-21 — And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:23 — And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

They will indeed be graffed in once again, after He deals with their millennia of rejection of Christ. The Tribulation will serve that ultimate end.

BTW

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for the detailed reply….

Each point one at a time:

• Yes, I know that Satan is a deceiver and an impersonator.
• I know that the One who answered me was God, because the first order of direction (after changing or removing every other obstacle) was to connect me to a Bible and the time to read it cover to cover. Wherein He gave me confirmation that He was the Author of the Bible and also of my experience, as One and the same.

What vested interest could the devil have in picking someone at random who was having an emotional crisis to mislead them into thinking that they were chosen for a role in the big scheme of things?
You say you know….but deception is deception, and an altered reality can appear to be very real indeed.
Do you see how easily a person could be deceived under those circumstance? It would be the cruelest deception....but sadly, that would be typical of the devil.

• As for believing I "alone am a 'chosen vessel'"--heavens no, the number of chosen vessels of God are too great to count! But what it would seem that you are really asking is, do I believe I am the one chosen for the task that I have been speaking of? The answer to which, is I have no need to 'believe" it, for He has given me every reason to "know" it to be so. Which, many would just roll their eyes at in response--while at the same time staking their life on the fact that God has been doing just that with individuals since the beginning. Those are who I would question--for to do as they do is a showing of double-minded, hypocrisy.

I understand what you mean, but I would still have to ask who are your brotherhood? Certainly not the church you attend, if you know that they do not teach the truth of God’s word….

Unless you have a brotherhood, how can you meet with other like-minded Christians? (Heb 10:24-25) We are to meet with our brethren regularly in order to support one another in these difficult days.

• As for attending churches whose beliefs I don't hold to be true-- It is because "strong delusion" is epidemic during these times. But, for example, ask also: Why would anyone sent by God go among those whom God sent them--or why would Jesus go to the house of Israel, knowing most wanted to kill Him? It is because, that is the very reason God sends who He sends.

How did Jesus make sure that his message went out to the people? He sent his disciples out to find them.
He did not tell them wait in a building for the sheep to wander in....it was an urgent search and rescue mission....people were reached ”publicly and from house to house”. (Acts 20:20)

• As for the Pastor, he too is under the foretold "strong delusion" just as has been foretold regarding Christendom in general--much as it was during many historic biblical events where all were affected.

Then why are you going along to hear his “delusion”? If we are to separate from those who teach false doctrine, what is your purpose there, especially if you have been “restrained” for 40 years?
What did you do for those 40 years?

• As for silence for 40 years--it is confirmation according to many biblical events. But I myself, or we of the gentiles--it is we who are not ready and in need of waiting, not God. It is by His grace that He restrains until the times are fulfilled.

That begs the question.....”where do you think we are in the stream of time”? What has your 40 years of silence accomplished?

In the 50+ years that I have been a student, a preacher and teacher of Christ’s message of “the Kingdom”, and I have helped countless people to learn what their own Bibles teaches about that Kingdom of God and what it will mean for the citizens of that Kingdom, on a cleansed “new earth” ruled by the best “government” that mankind have ever had. (Rev 21:2-4; Isa 9:6)

As you are no doubt aware, Jehovah’s Witnesses are very active in this work that Jesus commanded his disciples to do....something he said he would support. (Matt 28:19-20)
Who else are out there publicly visible, and preaching Christ’s message door to door?
The church I grew up in never even mentioned that this preaching work was a command from Christ because they cannot seem to do it in any sustained manner....Most have no idea exactly what God’s Kingdom is, so how can they preach about it in any reasoned or united way?

• What was not already in His word, was mentioned, in fact foretold as not to be revealed until the time of the end. The question then, is: How does God reveal what He has foretold in His good time? What is His established method(s)? And knowing that He has foretold the revealing of things mentioned but sealed until the times are fulfilled--should every child of God not actually expect it to come--and come according to His method?

Yes, what was foretold for this time of the end, when Christ was to return so as to “separate the sheep from the goats”....so, in what way are people expecting him, if they expect him at all?
We have so much information in the book of Daniel where it plainly states that he was to seal up his prophesies until the time of the end, when it would all be revealed. (Daniel 12:9)

How has Jesus revealed it? He spoke of a “faithful and wise slave” whom he would appoint at this time to give his true disciples “their food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) This slave is not one individual but a class of men who occupy that position, to educate (spiritually feed) and direct Christ’s disciples in the greatest preaching campaign in the history of the world....(Matt 24:14)....as in the first century and in Israel, there was one group appointed by God who led his people in worship. It was never left to just one man...God has always gathered his people into one body, nation, or brotherhood....with qualified leaders.These are to be united in every way....(1 Cor 1:10)...which I believe rules out Christendom completely....where is their unity?

Jehovah is an organised God who does things in an organised way......he always has.

• The more that was to come, was the finish of the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets--that was sealed, and only to be revealed at the time of the end.

It is “the last days” of this world’s present form of corrupt rulership, and we are deep into “the time of the end”......an “end” that will catch the world by surprise as they will not be expecting it. (Matt 24:44)

It is likened to “the days of Noah” (Matt 24:37-39) where Noah had been warning the people all the time He was building the means of his own salvation and that of his family....probably for decades....so by the time Noah entered the ark, his message had fallen on deaf ears for a very long time.....but it wasn’t Noah who determined when those last days ended back then.... it was God who closed the door of the ark.

So again Jesus warned that the response to the warning message his disciples delivered, would fall on equally deaf ears. They would not only be ignored but hated by the world as well. (John 15:18-21) The “good news” is that, just as a minority listened to Jesus, so a minority would respond to the preaching of his disciples. (Matt 7:13-14)

PS, If you are at all sincerely interested in knowing the details, you should really click on the link in my signature below. Thanks--your questions were good!

Thank you for your response....my questions are usually ignored or are given weak excuses for answers.
It’s good when people know what they believe and why....but caution is needed if things don’t fit into the big picture....I find that most people don’t have a big picture.....the picture they have is not the whole story.

 

[ScottA]

What vested interest could the devil have in picking someone at random who was having an emotional crisis to mislead them into thinking that they were chosen for a role in the big scheme of things?
You say you know….but deception is deception, and an altered reality can appear to be very real indeed.
Do you see how easily a person could be deceived under those circumstance? It would be the cruelest deception....but sadly, that would be typical of the devil.

I called Him by name...and He answered, with confirmations innumerable.

Are you convinced that those who sincerely call out to God in their hour of need, have no idea who they are talking to, and that God is not faithful and would allow Satan to step in?