The Garden

[aspen]

So what if the fruit of the Tree was a poppy. The flowers are beautiful to look at, but if misused, they produce opium. The poppies are there everyday and used by Adam and Eve as intended for eternity (time does not exist in perfection); and then, a drug dealer shows up and tells them about opium; without the presence of time, his instructions and temptation is ever present. When Adam and Eve misuse this form of creation, their decision to do so seems great at first, but, eventually, it robs them of all intimate relationships including with their true self. God, knowing all addicts need to face their addiction and repent (turning away) before they can find intimacy and life, once again. He also knows they cannot do it alone.

First He sets boundaries (loss of intimacy), then expectations (the law) and then, unconditional love and complete empathy (living the experience unto death), and then giving the Great Counselor to guide and redeem and transform us.

According to this telling of the story, it is not necessary for A&E to learn how to misuse creation - they learn nothing from the experience but loss of everything - death.

God never wanted us to Fall. He never wanted us to die. The only result from misuse of creation is always loss, never freedom.

Giving us unconditional love and forgiveness was Gods way of redeeming the entire experience because like in the story of Job, God redeems everything

 

[101G]

So what if the fruit of the Tree was a poppy. The flowers are beautiful to look at, but if misused, they produce opium.

Aspen, ........ (smile)...... Ok, good analogy.... LOL. but you sounded like the old serpent himself in your opening. "So what if the fruit of the Tree was a poppy". U sounded Just like the old serpent, saying, "have God said" . but anyway, there is a point I would like to address in earnest. I'm not so sure about God not wanting us to die. you said, "God never wanted us to Fall. He never wanted us to die. The only result from misuse of creation is always loss, never freedom". well listen to this, Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope". now on the death part, there are two death. 1. physical, or natural. 2. spiritual, temporary, and the other eternal. now don't take me wrong here, sometime a separation/a death can be a freedom in some cases, depending on the subjection one might be in. now the never falling, but he did made us vanity. now I do agree with you on this, "the misuse of creation is always loss". U have some good arguments, which I'm willing to hear. especially on the misuse of creation.

be blessed in the Lord.

 

[Helen]

God never wanted us to Fall. He never wanted us to die. The only result from misuse of creation is always loss, never freedom.

That is something that I have often wondered about!
If that were really true , then God would not have allowed the serpent into the Garden!!! Neither would He have planted the "tree" of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst!
Surly, He is not a cruel God that puts a snake in the play-pen and then punishes the baby for getting bitten?

My only answer to myself is...He being God, knew the end at the same moment as the beginning, it is only us who are stuck "In Time" , He is not.
In less than a blink ( for us) God knew the Fall and the Glorious END at the same time.
He knew Adam's end, and ours too.

The Garden is still a mystery to me...Some people think it was a "Perfect environment." It never was...could not be, not with the Serpent and Tree of TKOGAE in it's midst of it!!

I'm interested, and following this thread.

 

[aspen]

This is my speculation - and I cannot back it up, but I have often wondered if the serpent was Eve's false self. Snakes don't talk, but the false self rarely shuts up.

 

[Helen]

This is my speculation - and I cannot back it up, but I have often wondered if the serpent was Eve's false self. Snakes don't talk, but the false self rarely shuts up.

Too true...It could well be...nothing "in God" would surprise me...
...He is working His perfect plan.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, ........ (smile)...... Ok, good analogy.... LOL. but you sounded like the old serpent himself in your opening. "So what if the fruit of the Tree was a poppy". U sounded Just like the old serpent, saying, "have God said" . but anyway, there is a point I would like to address in earnest. I'm not so sure about God not wanting us to die. you said, "God never wanted us to Fall. He never wanted us to die. The only result from misuse of creation is always loss, never freedom". well listen to this, Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope". now on the death part, there are two death. 1. physical, or natural. 2. spiritual, temporary, and the other eternal. now don't take me wrong here, sometime a separation/a death can be a freedom in some cases, depending on the subjection one might be in. now the never falling, but he did made us vanity. now I do agree with you on this, "the misuse of creation is always loss". U have some good arguments, which I'm willing to hear. especially on the misuse of creation.

be blessed in the Lord.

Great post.

I hope speculating about this part of scripture is not seductive like the serpent! I appreciate you referencing Romans - I need to read it and think about it for a bit.

As far as the 'two types of death' I get it. I just picture the spiritual as always manifesting into the material - as a weak copy. Almost like the material world is a poor picture or ghost of the real, the spiritual

 

[aspen]

Too true...It could well be...nothing "in God" would surprise me...
...He is working His perfect plan.

Furthermore, it sure sounds 'human' to demonize a snake instead of taking responsibility!

 

[101G]

As far as the 'two types of death' I get it. I just picture the spiritual as always manifesting into the material - as a weak copy. Almost like the material world is a poor picture or ghost of the real, the spiritual

good point, but remember this world is a creation, it's not REAL, only a creation. what have gotten me is this, Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations". I'm aware of the consciousness aspect of this from God but not from our perspective. this time of unknowing is just like the garden. there's so much to learn about the garden and creation itself.
but back to the garden, I have a theory from a physical aspect of what Adam and Eve ate and how it might effect their offspring in relating to the trees in the garden. don't get me wrong, I'm aware of the fruit and it's characteristic in nature, or may I say spiritual nature. but my theory on the effect of what they ate physically might be interesting.

 

[bbyrd009]

but the false self rarely shuts up.

but here you are crediting...or whatever, Eve with an ego that it seems to me she could not have, pre-Knowledge?

 

[bbyrd009]

Furthermore, it sure sounds 'human' to demonize a snake instead of taking responsibility!

"scapegoat," yes.

 

[aspen]

but here you are crediting...or whatever, Eve with an ego that it seems to me she could not have, pre-Knowledge?

Yeah, doesn't quite fit

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, doesn't quite fit

i'm not sure, tbh. We say that animals lack an ego, yet they can still be willful, do things that they know are wrong, at least so to speak.

 

[aspen]

i'm not sure, tbh. We say that animals lack an ego, yet they can still be willful, do things that they know are wrong, at least so to speak.

You mean like domesticated animals? I am not sure a dog peeing on the carpet really counts....we are training and breeding them to please us by acting against their nature

 

[aspen]

Yeah, I think the clothing God made for A&E fits more with Ego

 

[101G]

This is my speculation - and I cannot back it up, but I have often wondered if the serpent was Eve's false self. Snakes don't talk, but the false self rarely shuts up.

@aspen, looking back over what you said, I have had the same thoughts. because even knowing the Romans 8:20 scripture, I wondered why myself, but just shrugged it off as to his, God, own reason. but looking back again as to what you just said here in this reply. it made me re-visit something.
#1. I know that evil is not sin. #2. there are two types of wisdom's above and below. but what you said makes the point. because if it was Just God, Adam, and Eve. and the serpent, the devil angels here on EARTH. which (I never believed that the devil was ever in heaven, only have a place in heave, but not residing there). even we have a place in heaven but not residing there physically, or spiritually yet, see Eph 2:6. so to be seated, in heaven or to have authority in heaven do not mean one is from heaven. Eph 2:6 proves this out. so even the lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, which was not the actual king of Tyrus, but but in reference to Satan himself was in Eden. now, if Satan the Light bearer, not the Light, but the bearer of the Light (Isa 14:12) was on earth all the time, my question also is, where did the LACK of God wisdom come from for the serpent to speak. for the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is complete. remember evil is not sin but it can cause one to sin. so the Lack of Knowledge in wisdom concern me (your false self about Eve). but the TREE was of God, "Good", and "Evil". so what else or not came into play on Eve decision. I see what you're saying, "if the serpent was Eve's false self". this is a good insight, but was it us all the time, or in us all the time?, or...... was this falseness something else. so if it was Eve false self, where did the falseness come from?.

I going over what you said. because that caught my attention. if there is anything you might come across please post it, as before, "your thought". because there are great thinkers. keep on thinking.

 

[bbyrd009]

so if it was Eve false self, where did the falseness come from?

desire, imo. Opium is not evil; desire for abusing it is.

 

[101G]

desire, imo. Opium is not evil; desire for abusing it is.

where then did the desire come from. remember they are innocent, no crimes have been committed before.

 

[bbyrd009]

where then did the desire come from. remember they are innocent, no crimes have been committed before.

hmm, where does a toddler's desire to stick his finger in a fire after he has been abundantly warned about the danger come from? I guess. don't see any holes in the analogy, i'd have to think on it a bit more.

 

[101G]

First thanks for the reply, but I do understand that she had a desire, but the desire was based on seeing that the tree was "GOOD" for food. but here's the catcher, seeing/saw is to know. listen
Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat". see, the desire was based on the KNOWLEDGE which the tree is itself, "GOOD" and "EVIL". it bring us right back to the basic question.

 

[101G]

aspen make a great point, it was not the tree of Good and Evil itself, but was it as aspen said, something about Eve, I'm not so sure now, because re-reading Romans 8:20, "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope".

by understanding Romans 8:20, it was neither the tree, nor Eve. because as said before, "but by reason of him". and that's where I'm going to leave it.