The GENDER Issue again :)

[VictoryinJesus]

But even though Eve was culpable, God held Adam responsible.

“God held Adam responsible” makes me think of “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It is significant that all the apostles were men,

is it significant also that they were all Jewish men? What does that mean for gentile men? Are gentile men excluded as well? Since all were men and all of them were Jewish …then gentile men and women seem to be in the same “gender” of exclusion: where only men, more precisely only Jewish men …

 

[michaelvpardo]

Eve's sin was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God. It is amazing to me that Paul didn't even mention this to Timothy. Why not speak against men seeing as they are the most likely to be rebellious. Why just against women here and to the Corinthians? It was actually part of Jewish culture, not New Covenant. Jesus liberated women.

Rebellion is obvious to all.The decieved believe and teach lies. If you "take sides" against men or women, you demonstrate to all that you're still living under a curse and not above it.

16 To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.” Genesis 3:16

You've said that God teaches you and You've given me no reason to disbelieve you, so how do you read this?
What's your honest understanding?

 

[michaelvpardo]

The first Adam is a foreshadowing of the Last Adam. The Beginning and the End, are not Christ, but both are His story. But the point is, that mankind has been identified by the appointed portrayals given to men and women by God in the scriptures, as having been taken out of the Head of the church whom is Christ the Bridegroom (as foreshadowed by the first Adam), with the Master plan being to return again in the Oneness of marriage.

Interesting info on men's brains, vs. women's. Here's another: The brain feels no pain.

The brain has no neuroreceptors to sense damage, but all pain is experienced by the brain. God is Spirit and has no physical body other than Jesus and the saints, and Jesus, being fully man could "feel" everything and did (or He couldn't have been tempted in all ways as we are and be perfected as our high priest.)
Adam is identified by scripture as Son of God, but created not Begotten. He is a biblical type of Christ as were Joshua, son of Nun, Samson, and perhaps others, but he didn't foreshadow Christ anymore than Samson or Joshua, because Adam, though created "good", sinned while Jesus always did that which was pleasing to God. No created being could foreshadow the creator, and no type of Christ could be a perfect type after the fall of man and the curses laid upon creation for the sake of man.

 

[Oceanprayers]

I'm not sure from your post, but you may have missed the point.

The point is that in the greater eternal context that Paul's commandment to women eludes to, is both men and women are to be silent in church--which is in accord with Bridegroom, saying, "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

In other words, in the greater context of being the bride of Christ, men have no more advantage, and women have no less advantage, other than the roles assigned to them. Roles that should be kept, but both as unto the Lord in marriage.

I think you mean to address your observation to those two men here who condemn the meaning of Paul's teaching in order to divide the Christian church using gender as a fulcrum.

 

[Oceanprayers]

@Oceanprayers is right. They still didn't know they were naked after Eve ate, but did once Adam ate. Why? Eve's was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God.

Exactly so.Well said.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Eve's sin was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God. It is amazing to me that Paul didn't even mention this to Timothy. Why not speak against men seeing as they are the most likely to be rebellious. Why just against women here and to the Corinthians? It was actually part of Jewish culture, not New Covenant. Jesus liberated women.

Amen! Praise God.
That's precisely the import behind Paul's observation. No male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Except women aren't quiet in the church. They're pastors, Sunday school teachers, members of the choir, prayer leaders, elders, and pastor's wives.

Paul being misunderstood isn't to say God agrees. Else he wouldn't call women to serve now, as he did when they walked with Jesus, and served as apostles alongside Paul.

And God's design insures women are the gateway by which new God given life enters this world.

Gender roles? God made Adam and Eve equals in their origin. Both created of and from God.

God said in marriage the two become one.
It's man's sin that calls women deficient because of their sex. Not God who made them to serve as mothers of to the future.

And it's women's sin to reject the authority God gave men and refuse to submit to their guidance, just as you are doing now.
Women are taking leadership roles in the church, but in opposition to the word of God, not in agreement with it.
I've heard men preach lies from the pulpit and clearly for personal gain. I've heard women preach lies from the pulpit, but they believed what they were saying because they were decieved.

Women do not think in the same manner as men. This is not culturally determined, but biologically determined because of their role as mothers, not an accident or choice, but by the will of God.

 

[Oceanprayers]

God help me, I can't stay out of these things completely sometimes.

The parallel between husband and wife is Christ and the church, and was it or was it not foreshadowed through Adam and Eve? As Paul said in one place, "the mystery is great, but I speak of Christ and the church," and in another, "the woman being deceived was in transgression." It means that according to orthodox Christianity, Adam ate knowing full well what he was doing, but like Christ after him, he ate out of love for his wife so that she might not be alone in her sin, but have an advocate standing with her before God. So too with Christ. He was made sin for us that we might be joined to Him, and have an Advocate before God, and judgment might be turned away from us. And as a result, God honored both Christ and His bride, and they will be victorious over sin and death when all is said and done, and it was through this victory that Adam and Eve are in Heaven today, and enjoying Paradise together once again.

@Oceanprayers: I'm not staying in this long because I know how round and round it can go, but why the dishonor to either Adam OR Eve in the narrative? Why is it always, "She was the bad guy" or "He was the bad guy"? Why not rather honor to them both as examples of Christ and His bride, that out of love for one another they overcame the penalty of sin together, and in refusing to be apart from one another God had compassion upon them in the end?

And that's enough for me. Gets a little too mushy-gushy even for Mr. Emotional, but honestly, the whole Biblical narrative ends up being a story of redemption and victory. Why the focus on when they suffered their terrible defeat?

The divisive assault against the church is a constant perpetrated by MichaelP. And his mirror Allie in this thread.

Insisting women are deficient due to their sex,etc ...
Even attempting in one thread to berate me with a personal attack due to my opining contrary to Michaels errant statements in an effort to correct for others his misrepresentation of a passage. Telling me I need submit in quietude to an elder. Presumably himself.

The fact is the Genesis narrative is clear. Both Adam and Eve were unaware of what it meant to obey.
Because they did not know what that meant being they had no knowledge of obedience and disobedience in order to make a choice to eat or not eat of the tree that would imbue them with that awareness like unto that of God.
They were coerced by the serpent to eat. The serpent knew full well what was at stake.

And it was by God's will and decree that their ignorant acts damned future generations for all time. Even after the deluge, the new race was condemned. When that was the global baptism that truly washed away the sins in the world because it drowned all but 8 sinners. Including innocent animals and foul that weren't saved by the ark.
Yet another allegory for the future gospel.

So the cause of our present condition is predicated on human responsibility second to that of God predetermining the whole thing to occur
And it was by that authority that God made the responsibility for sin that already existed entering this world .
Adam didn't consciously choose to sin so Eve wouldn't be alone in her sin. Eve didn't know she'd sinned. Because that knowledge didn't yet exist in them in order to make a conscious choice to sin together.

And if the man is to be the head of the woman, as Adam was made to be in the beginning, and for some that is what makes men in authority,superior to women today, he failed! Willfully. Because had he known his place he would have led Eve from temptation. Not agreed to be persuaded into it right beside her.

They could not overcome God's will.

By one man sin entered this world. Sin preexisted Eden in Heaven. Where Lucifer sinned in rebellion against God.
Then Lucifer,supposedly the serpent of Eden, brought the opportunity to sin into the earthly paradise. Because God let him be Lord of this world. As he remains to this day.

I have a sticker on my truck. "Eve was framed!"

Because it's true.
Emotional topic? Of course! We're all destined to damnation at birth because of the Genesis plan of God.

Odd, given Jesus became sin on the cross and took the sins of the whole world, for all time, upon himself on the cross. Paying the sin debt in full.

But sin is still in God's created world. And humans are still destined to live and die as sinners.
Unless it until they are those God predestined to save from their sins.

That's an odd narrative right there.
Jesus took the sins of the whole world for eternity upon himself on the last altar where he paid with his blood to wipe sin out of the world as the last or 2nd Adam.
Yet, sin is still here. And Satan-Lucifer is still the earthly lord that exploits it by God's will

Emotional issue? How could it not be? It's our life and future we're talking about. Based on a foundation of a scriptural narrative as to why that is.

And it has an impact because we believe.

 

[reformed1689]

That's fine, I'm not going to argue with you on it. But I hear God's voice and have learned to obey Him explicitly. And I have asked Him questions and have received answers immediately. I believe what He said.

God doesn't say things against his word so you are making things up.

 

[reformed1689]

Eve's sin was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God.

And this is why women cannot teach. What do you base this on? She DELIBERATLY disobeyed.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Rebellion is obvious to all.The decieved believe and teach lies. If you "take sides" against men or women, you demonstrate to all that you're still living under a curse and not above it.

16 To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.” Genesis 3:16

You've said that God teaches you and You've given me no reason to disbelieve you, so how do you read this?
What's your honest understanding?

Unfortunately, you example and repeatedly the behavior you describe as a fault in that first part of your post.

Now, your effort is to take 1stCL to task for her observations that in no wise rise to the level you claim, yet are guilty of yourself.

You don't even understand that scripture you've posted. Because what you believe it says is actually countering what you stated against gender divisions in the first part of your post. You're contradicting yourself in an effort to chastise a woman.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Bible record shows that Eve was NOT ignorant of what God had said, but (1) she misrepresented the words of God and then (2) she voluntarily and wilfully submitted to her lusts rather than obey God. But even though Eve was culpable, God held Adam responsible.

GENESIS 3: THE FALL
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that [1] the tree was good for food, and that [2] it was pleasant to the eyes, and [3] a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

All the words of Eve in red are MISREPRESENTATIONS of what God had actually said to Adam (which he no doubt conveyed to Eve otherwise she could not have made those statements):

GOD SAID: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"
EVE SAID: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden"
Conclusion: the omission of "freely" minimized the free grace of God

GOD SAID: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."
EVE SAID: "the tree which is in the midst of the garden"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to obfuscate exactly which tree was forbidden

GOD SAID: "thou shalt not eat of it" (no mention of touching)
EVE SAID: "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to misrepresent was was actually said

GOD SAID: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
EVE SAID: "lest ye die" (even Satan admitted, but contradicted, what God actually said)
Conclusion: this was an attempt to minimize the certainty of the penalty for disobedience

Then we have the three lusts of Eve laid out, and after that we have Eve persuading Adam to also disobey God.

You do understand that Adam and Eve hadn't seen death before the curse (in the context of scripture). They were given the fruit of the garden as their food with only 1 exception. Before the curse they had no prohibition against eating from the tree of life. If you're careful in your reading, you'll see that Eve had not yet been created when Adam received the commandment.

The implication is that Eve ignored Adam, but believed the serpent which is emblematic of female rebellion for all time. We even find a representation of this in the prophetess of Baal, Jezebel. She sought to kill God's prophet. Her name is repeated in the book of the Revelation in a rebuke of the church and in a similar context (Baal worship included the ritualistic practice of sexual immorality.)

20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:20-23

It should be understood that Jezebel is held accountable even though deceived herself.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well...Jesus did say that "it was not so from the beginning." But, yes, it was permitted by grace.

Where did Jesus use the word "grace" in such a way - the opposite of the true meaning of God's grace.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Unfortunately, you example and repeatedly the behavior you describe as a fault in that first part of your post.

Now, your effort is to take 1stCL to task for her observations that in no wise rise to the level you claim, yet are guilty of yourself.

You don't even understand that scripture you've posted. Because what you believe it says is actually countering what you stated against gender divisions in the first part of your post. You're contradicting yourself in an effort to chastise a woman.

More deceived babel.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Bible record shows that Eve was NOT ignorant of what God had said, but (1) she misrepresented the words of God and then (2) she voluntarily and wilfully submitted to her lusts rather than obey God. But even though Eve was culpable, God held Adam responsible.

GENESIS 3: THE FALL
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that [1] the tree was good for food, and that [2] it was pleasant to the eyes, and [3] a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

All the words of Eve in red are MISREPRESENTATIONS of what God had actually said to Adam (which he no doubt conveyed to Eve otherwise she could not have made those statements):

GOD SAID: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"
EVE SAID: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden"
Conclusion: the omission of "freely" minimized the free grace of God

GOD SAID: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."
EVE SAID: "the tree which is in the midst of the garden"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to obfuscate exactly which tree was forbidden

GOD SAID: "thou shalt not eat of it" (no mention of touching)
EVE SAID: "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to misrepresent was was actually said

GOD SAID: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
EVE SAID: "lest ye die" (even Satan admitted, but contradicted, what God actually said)
Conclusion: this was an attempt to minimize the certainty of the penalty for disobedience

Then we have the three lusts of Eve laid out, and after that we have Eve persuading Adam to also disobey God.

She was ignorant of lies. When had she ever heard a lie before? So far, everything she has heard was the truth. The serpent explained it in such a way that she would be as wise as God. Who wouldn't want that?

 

[reformed1689]

is it significant also that they were all Jewish men? What does that mean for gentile men? Are gentile men excluded as well? Since all were men and all of them were Jewish …then gentile men and women seem to be in the same “gender” of exclusion: where only men, more precisely only Jewish men …

Seeing as how we don't have anymore apostles....

 

[reformed1689]

She was ignorant of lies. When had she ever heard a lie before? So far, everything she has heard was the truth. The serpent explained it in such a way that she would be as wise as God.

And that somehow gives her a pass?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Where did Jesus use the word "grace" in such a way - the opposite of the true meaning of God's grace.

Jesus taught God's grace from the Old Testament. He was a rabbi and taught the law and the prophets from the perspective of grace. I thought that you said that you were taught by God. Why don't you then understand His grace?

 

[michaelvpardo]

And this is why women cannot teach. What do you base this on? She DELIBERATLY disobeyed.

But, if you believe the order of Revelation in Genesis, she deliberately disobeyed Adam. She wasn't yet created when Adam received the commandment and the scripture doesn't tell us that Eve had any direct Revelation or contact with God before her contact with the serpent. Her rebellion was against Adam (the head of their relationship) and indirectly against God.