The Gospel Of Grace

[fivesense]

Mt 26:51-54 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

1C 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

To recommend departure from this forum in order to avoid coming into an awareness of God through someone elses apprehensions is a failure to understand what is truly happening in the spiritual realms. Satan must and will be deposed. We have been called to participate in that dislodging of him in his misrepresentation and imitation of God. It is through the powerful operation of Holy Spirit through the vessels God has chosen that this is occurring. Seeking to avoid that confrontation by pushing it away, is cowardly and selfish. There is no submission to one another in the fear of the Lord where one has the option to dismiss as irrelevent or in error another brother or sister in Christ. Such a stance is proof of not recognizing the Body, and is the fruit of death working in ones members.

Those who will deal out invectives and slanders will reap what they sow. For a season they may prosper in their folly, but there will come a time when God will cut it off. It is pitiable and sad. With all the grace and mercy that has been shown us, that there are members of the Body of Christ that refuse to minister the same. God is more than able to bring His sons and daughter to a knowledge of the truth through those qualified to teach. Those who are not qualified, will be discovered for their posturing and encroachment.

fivesense

 

[RichardBurger]

LOL...This is the 'Christian Debate Forum'. If you wanted full agreement with your unbiblical positions, post somewhere else where no one actually studies the Bible. That way, you might get away with your Bible illiteracy. Your reaction to having your understanding proven false as to why Christ was sent by God is very childish.

Obviously, by way of your comment, "here we go again", it is fair to conclude that others have found your understandings/beliefs to be unbiblical as well.

2Ti 3:16​

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


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Pulling out one set of scriptures in support of one's position does not mean that one is necessarily correct. One's position needs to meet the burden of reproof in the totality of the Bible, as well, before the Bible-believing Christian can accept such position as Bible Truth. In my previous post in this topic, I demonstrated that your position does not meet that burden of reproof -- and, hence, your position is false. Accordingly, for those who actually believe the Bible, the only conclusion that can be reached is that you are in error.

I hope this helps you with your future posts -- do your homework first.




Thank you for proving yourself in error! Look at v. 7 -

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

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God's plan for salvation in this second age, through the shed blood of Christ, was ordained [meaning predetermined] before the world [meaning age -- See Strong's]. God ordained it without witnessing the sinful nature of flesh mankind. The position you took in the OP could not be more in error. As I indicated in my prior post, you are remiss in your failure to consider the first age, and that which transpired therein.

Your conclusion [Satan would not let Jesus shed His blood on the cross] is certainly heretical -- even bordering on blasphemy!! You act as if salvation was ever available to Satan in this second age. Have you not read Eze. 28?? In v. 8 and v. 10, Satan's death sentence was pronounced [in the first age]. Satan knows of his death sentence. So, of course, Satan, with knowledge of the Son of God in the flesh of Christ, would want Him crucified. For you to contend that such foreknowledge of Christ would preclude Satan from having Christ crucified can only mean that you think salvation is available to Satan, which implies that Christ shed blood for Satan too. That is a dangerous belief that you have.

The reference to 'rulers' ['princes' in the KJV] pertains to mankind -- not Satan. Your confusion of the term 'rulers' with Satan, and, thereby, conclude that salvation exists for Satan, is further proof of your Bible illiteracy -- leading to heretical, and, perhaps, blasphemous beliefs. Again, I suggest that you do your homework before posting.



Once again, you demonstrate your complete lack of knowledge and your complete Bible illiteracy. Your position is so easily defeated. See Acts 10 and Peter's ministering onto Cornelius, a Gentile.

Act 10:28 And he [Peter] said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

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Christ certainly did come to save Gentiles too! Your ignorance of the three ages, the purpose for this age, and Christ's mission speaks to your heresy. Again, I urge you to study and do your homework before posting.

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Nothing in what I wrote indicated that salvation is available to Satan. That is your smear of what I said. It works in politics so you do it here.

No where do I try to indicate that I am smarter in scriptures than someone I am posting with but you seem to take great pride in doing it to me. Well so be it.

I take heart in the fact that there are others on this thread that agree with my OP.

 

[brionne]

Nothing in what I wrote indicated that salvation is available to Satan. That is your smear of what I said. It works in politics so you do it here.

No where do I try to indicate that I am smarter in scriptures than someone I am posting with but you seem to take great pride in doing it to me. Well so be it.

I take heart in the fact that there are others on this thread that agree with my OP.

I dont think that no one agrees with your OP. You are correct to say that we are not saved by works...thats true and its what Paul preached.

But the problem is that there needs to be some balance and thats where James and John come into the picture. They both taught that christianity is as much about showing love and acting in harmony with Christ that works of faith must be apparent.

A person with true faith in God will imitate the example Jesus set BECAUSE of their faith.


It is not balanced to focus only on Pauls words and assume that we dont need to do anything at all as christians.

 

[fivesense]

I dont think that no one agrees with your OP. You are correct to say that we are not saved by works...thats true and its what Paul preached.
But the problem is that there needs to be some balance and thats where James and John come into the picture. They both taught that christianity is as much about showing love and acting in harmony with Christ that works of faith must be apparent.
A person with true faith in God will imitate the example Jesus set BECAUSE of their faith.
It is not balanced to focus only on Pauls words and assume that we dont need to do anything at all as christians.

While I value your opinion highly Pegg, since you have good knowledge of the word, I must bring to your attention a remiss on your part. Your claim that those who seek to acquire truth by focusing on Paul's words alone are imbalanced christians is not acceptable in the light of revelation. God has placed a great deal of emphasis upon Paul's teachings and doctrine, and I deliver the most direct statements to you here. You are obliged to consider them, as the come from the Source.

Ro 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost

Ga 1:16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might proclaim him good news among the nations, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood,

Gal 2:8 for He who did work with Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, did work also in me in regard to the nations,

Eph 3:1 . For this cause, I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you the nations,

Eph 3:8 to me-the less than the least of all the saints-was given this grace, among the nations to proclaim good news-the untraceable riches of the Christ,

1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Where, in all of God's word, does anyone else make such claims? Does Peter make such a claim? Where? Why is it so important to God to have Paul emphasize this point? Why is it you do not see it?

Paul assign the source of HIS gospel to one place, from the Father. He did not obtain HIS gospel from the Lord's disciples or apostles. It came to him directly out of heaven, carried by the Chief Messenger Himself, sent by His Father in heaven. It did not originate on the earth, nor was it testified to in the law or Prophets. It was a secret kept hidden from the generations, revealed to him and his fellow workers apart from the Promises to Israel according to the Covenant. Although he tried to connect with the Jewish believers, they would not have it, and it never happened in his lifetime. The "christian" Jews despised Paul's gospel.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ro 16:25 . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 . Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Why the distinction if it has no place in the plan and perspective of God? Are you not even intrigued as to what this is all about? Would you rather resist the truth and retain "theological correctness", and forego potentially being in the wrong? I can understand that, that is every persons weakness, admitting error. There is nothing wrong with that, it just takes a large portion of Holy Spirit to replace what is corrupted and darkened, which is always welcome by the sincere student and worker.

Those who will not accept God's plan for the nations, to receive Paul as they would receive from Christ Himself, is following a dark path. Just as the Twelve had pre-eminence among the Jewish saints by right of their commission, and " continued stedfastly in the apostles'doctrine and fellowship", so too, we are no less required to submit to God through that office that Paul was the sole dispenser of.

Paul is not the Christ of God. He did not give himself up for our sins. That is not the issue. It is the refusal to follow the plan of God as outlined in the Scriptures, and leading ourselves according to our own opinions and thinking. To refuse to give to Paul the proper place of the only Apostle to the nations is a huge mistake, and God has made that very clear in every passage I have quoted to you. Your only other option is to be leaning on your own understandings, and that has a reward as well.

This is all so simple even a child should not be suffered from knowing it. No doubt a child could readily apprehend the differences easily, as long as he or she did not become polluted with theology first. He would read the verses, and believe, because they are plain and direct. It is us, the "learned" ones, who cannot allow God to be God, and rely on Him, Who is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe.

fivesense

 

[brionne]

Those who will not accept God's plan for the nations, to receive Paul as they would receive from Christ Himself, is following a dark path. Just as the Twelve had pre-eminence among the Jewish saints by right of their commission, and " continued stedfastly in the apostles'doctrine and fellowship", so too, we are no less required to submit to God through that office that Paul was the sole dispenser of.

Paul is not the Christ of God. He did not give himself up for our sins. That is not the issue. It is the refusal to follow the plan of God as outlined in the Scriptures, and leading ourselves according to our own opinions and thinking. To refuse to give to Paul the proper place of the only Apostle to the nations is a huge mistake, and God has made that very clear in every passage I have quoted to you. Your only other option is to be leaning on your own understandings, and that has a reward as well.

This is all so simple even a child should not be suffered from knowing it. No doubt a child could readily apprehend the differences easily, as long as he or she did not become polluted with theology first. He would read the verses, and believe, because they are plain and direct. It is us, the "learned" ones, who cannot allow God to be God, and rely on Him, Who is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe.

fivesense

But Paul was not the sole dispenser of Gods grace to the nations. Peter also played a role in that for he was the first one to baptize a gentile.

I regard all of the writings of the NT as inspired and relevant for christians to obey and comprehend....not just the writings of Paul alone.

Paul himself said "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving and setting things straight" .... ALL scripture included the writings of the other apostles and disciples of Jesus. James writing is just as worthy of our attention as is Pauls because they were both inspired by God to write it.

 

[fivesense]

But Paul was not the sole dispenser of Gods grace to the nations. Peter also played a role in that for he was the first one to baptize a gentile.

I regard all of the writings of the NT as inspired and relevant for christians to obey and comprehend....not just the writings of Paul alone.

Paul himself said "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving and setting things straight" .... ALL scripture included the writings of the other apostles and disciples of Jesus. James writing is just as worthy of our attention as is Pauls because they were both inspired by God to write it.

The two instances, the only two, that are recorded by Holy Spirit concerning Jewish outreach to the nations, are the depictions of fulfilment. The sons of Noah, Ham and Japheth, are represented in Cornelius and the Ethiopian eunuchs conversions. The heralding of the King and the Kingdom of the Lord came to those who were of the sons of Noah, besides Shem, of whom are the Israelites. They are figures and complete the just judgment of God, revealing His desire for all men to be saved. That was the end of their conversion activities, according to the Holy Record. Anything you may add is conjecture and not truth. I plead with you to uphold the truth as it is revealed and cease adding to it with conjecture. I would not expect to receive anything from God should I consider adding to His Writings things that are not there. That the Hebrew believers went unto the nations is not true and not recorded. Please refrain from adding things that are not there. I want to keep you in the highest esteem and regard, hoping to derive some blessing, but if you insist on practicing this unfaithful method of teaching something that is not there, I am sure that things will change.

The inspiration and value of the Writings is not at issue, Pegg. It is the failure to believe what God said about Paul, our apostle, which I faithfully posted for your consideration and that you have decided amount to nothing. That is what you prefer to do, and you must find out the perils and drawbacks of unbelief in this area. I am willing to help you and give you my heart in the matter, but I will not relent. Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, and Paul is the only teacher and apostle we have, and that is the Word of God.

It is only unbelief, that is causing this problem.

fivesense

 

[brionne]

The two instances, the only two, that are recorded by Holy Spirit concerning Jewish outreach to the nations, are the depictions of fulfilment. The sons of Noah, Ham and Japheth, are represented in Cornelius and the Ethiopian eunuchs conversions. The heralding of the King and the Kingdom of the Lord came to those who were of the sons of Noah, besides Shem, of whom are the Israelites. They are figures and complete the just judgment of God, revealing His desire for all men to be saved. That was the end of their conversion activities, according to the Holy Record. Anything you may add is conjecture and not truth. I plead with you to uphold the truth as it is revealed and cease adding to it with conjecture. I would not expect to receive anything from God should I consider adding to His Writings things that are not there. That the Hebrew believers went unto the nations is not true and not recorded. Please refrain from adding things that are not there. I want to keep you in the highest esteem and regard, hoping to derive some blessing, but if you insist on practicing this unfaithful method of teaching something that is not there, I am sure that things will change.

The inspiration and value of the Writings is not at issue, Pegg. It is the failure to believe what God said about Paul, our apostle, which I faithfully posted for your consideration and that you have decided amount to nothing. That is what you prefer to do, and you must find out the perils and drawbacks of unbelief in this area. I am willing to help you and give you my heart in the matter, but I will not relent. Jesus Christ is the Lord of all, and Paul is the only teacher and apostle we have, and that is the Word of God.

It is only unbelief, that is causing this problem.

fivesense

I have to admit that im failing completely to comprehend what you are trying to say.

If what you are saying is that we should only acknowledge and accept Pauls teachings, then tell me what are we to do with Jesus teachings?

And tell me what are we to do with the Gospel accounts?

And tell me what are we to do with the letters of John and James and Jude and Peter?


Are you saying that none of the letters of anyone else or the gospels are to apply to christians today?

 

[RichardBurger]

I dont think that no one agrees with your OP. You are correct to say that we are not saved by works...thats true and its what Paul preached.

But the problem is that there needs to be some balance and thats where James and John come into the picture. They both taught that christianity is as much about showing love and acting in harmony with Christ that works of faith must be apparent.

A person with true faith in God will imitate the example Jesus set BECAUSE of their faith.


It is not balanced to focus only on Pauls words and assume that we dont need to do anything at all as christians.

I see that fivesense has replied to you about the nature of Paul's gospel so I will not add to his work about Paul. There is something else you should consider. All through history the children of God have been persecuted by Satan's dominions. To think that you are in the main stream of truth, and because of it you are at peace with religion, ignores the record of history. Another on this forum seems to think that teaching the othodox theology of the Christian churchs will lead to acceptance by all others in religion.

What does history teach us? What does the Bible teach us? When I opened my eyes I saw that the religious persecute the children of God. Jesus was persecuted by the religious in His time. Stephen and the Apostles were persecuted by the religious and so was Paul. In my Bible it says the children of God will be persecuted because we are not of this world. So why would it be any different now?

IMHO your statement that we must balance the teachings of the Bible is wrong. My scripture tells me to "rightly divide" the word of truth, not balance it. All of it was written "for us" but not all of it is written "to us." --- Jesus came preaching to the Jews that the promised kingdom was at hand. No where in the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. do I see that the Gentiles were promised a kingdom on earth ruled by a Messiah. --- But the Jews rejected Jesus and His promised kingdom. So is it rational to think that the gospel of the kingdom at hand is for the Gentiles?

It is because of the fact that not even God's elect, the Jews, could keep the law of Moses that we enjoy a salvation that has been bought and paid for by God Himself in the work of His Son on the cross. It says in the scripture that God has put all men uder sin so that He can be fair in offering salvation by faith, no works involved. -- No we are not to offer our works, which God has said are as filthy as dirty rags. -- The religious idea that we can do any works to please God is an affront to God's plan of salvation by His Son only. God wants to glorify His Son's work on the cross. We do that by preaching the pure and simple gospel of God's grace. -- However it seem that mankind wants to glorify himself by insisting on his/her works as necessary for salvation.

Now if a person wants to claim they have faith because they have works then it beggs the question, do their works help buy their salavtion? -- If you look out into the world with open eyes you will see that it is those that promote works that persecute the children of God. --- Satan wants men/women to do works so that they can be religious and lost. IMHO to claim works is a slap in God's face and He will deal with it.

It will now be said that I disappove of good works but I don't. I just disapprove of the way they are taught as being a part of God's plan of salvation when they are not. Since some seem to think James writings are for us how does it stack up with this?

Matthew 6:1-4
6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
NKJV

Seems to me we are not supposed toi make a great deal about our works before men.

 

[fivesense]

I have to admit that im failing completely to comprehend what you are trying to say.
If what you are saying is that we should only acknowledge and accept Pauls teachings, then tell me what are we to do with Jesus teachings?
And tell me what are we to do with the Gospel accounts?
And tell me what are we to do with the letters of John and James and Jude and Peter?
Are you saying that none of the letters of anyone else or the gospels are to apply to christians today?

My heart aches for you Pegg, and for the other saints of God, who do not apprehend this simple truth. Paul was Christ's minister to the nations. He was priest, interceding in our behalf; he was a prophet, declaring things out of heaven and establishing God's word through his activities among us; he was a servent to the nations, pouring out his life for our sakes. In his life and works, which were more than all the rest of the apostles of the Lord, God has proven who and what he is to us. Study of the Scriptures to feed our spirits and souls on the feast that it contains is all well and good. It is what God would have us do to bring glory to Himself and into reality. But the simple and profound truth of Paul's commission has been lost in Christendoms mimicry of the religiousness and self-justifying nature of the human soul. It is a truth that is "in-your-face", and must be personally concluded or dismissed in order to advance in the Kingdom of His Beloved Son.

There are only Twelve apostles commissioned by the Lord. Paul does not qualify as a "thirteenth" apostle. There are no "thirteen tribes of Israel". There is a significance to having another commission outside the original twelve.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil (plerosai, complete) the word of God;

His appointment came out of the insufficiency of the others to complete the word of God. Without his apostleship, conversely, the word of God would not have been consummated.

I ask you, if it possible for you to do this small exercise, to remove from the Divine Record all of Paul's writings. and view the Scriptures in the light of these absenses. If you can do this, it will have to be honestly admitted that there is nothing to give to us from God, it is all Jewish and we are merely secondary as a feature of Israels inheritance in the earth. All the blessings, all the promises, all the good things promised to mankind from God are to come through the superior race chosen to rule over the nations. There is nothing that God has promised to the Gentiles that does not first come through and out of Abrahams children of the flesh, nothing. We, the nations, have no inheritance, no blessings, no laws, no convenants, no peace, no promises, and no Messiah to call our own. It is all about Israel.

If you succeed in this effort, of removing Paul's teachings from what you know of Scripture, and honestly examining the Writings without his influence, it will become obvious you are looking at a Jewish record and testimony. We are merely mashed potatoes and a side dish in the glory that awaits the earth through the royal priesthood of God's chosen priesthood.

1C 4:14 . I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn [you].

What Paul writes next is difficult for those who desire to remain independent of the order God has arranged in salvation through Jesus Christ:

1C 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

You and I have nothing, absolutely nothing, to base our approach unto God the Father through Jesus Christ other than the Gospel which Paul preached and we believed. Believing what the Lord said, and reading the Gospel accounts will provide you nothing to base your approach upon. There is nothing in the Greek Scriptures outside of Paul's writings that mention justification for the nations through grace and faith in the Cross of Christ. You will look in vain.

1C 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

In earnest, Paul beseeches us to recognize this fact. Outside of his commission and dispensation given to him from the Christ of heaven, we have nothing but knowledge of God and His dealings with Israel. Until Paul, we, in the eyes of the Lord were puppies, waiting for crumbs from the children's table, with Israel still the main players on the scene, awaiting the promises of God.

Many, many are the souls that seek to copy and imitate the Christ of God, holding His teaching close to themselves, bearing fruit identical to the best of all the sons of God, and yet are not at all "saved". I have, in 50 odd years, known many whose belief in the "Golden Rule", whose works and belief in the Lord's teachings, put me to shame, and yet, are not of the elect and deny His death and resurrection. Following Jesus can be faked and imitated by anyone. Try to follow Paul, and you will receive a reproach and trouble, even from the elect.

This is the test of those who would claim "I am of the Body". By what authority, and whose commission? What Gospel did you believe to conclude you are a Body member, The Lord's? It is not in His teachings, Peter's Gospel? You will not find justification with God by faith, only "if you do this, you shall be saved". It is only Paul who is the apostle for us, with the message of grace and election by faith. The others offer us nothing.

 

[brionne]

IMHO your statement that we must balance the teachings of the Bible is wrong. My scripture tells me to "rightly divide" the word of truth, not balance it. All of it was written "for us" but not all of it is written "to us." --- Jesus came preaching to the Jews that the promised kingdom was at hand. No where in the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. do I see that the Gentiles were promised a kingdom on earth ruled by a Messiah. --- But the Jews rejected Jesus and His promised kingdom. So is it rational to think that the gospel of the kingdom at hand is for the Gentiles?

I agree that it was the Jews who were offered seats in the Kingdom of God. But there are two things to consider. first, lets say all the jew of Jesus day accepted him and became his disciples....how could millions of them fit into the 144,000 seats set aside in heaven? Rev 14:1
Obviously, the entire jewish race were not going to be chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. Jesus words also indicate that those going to heaven were to be a 'little flock' Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom" So to assume that the entire jewish race were/are going to be taken to rule with Christ is not really in line with what the scriptures tell us.

Secondly, both Jesus and Paul explained about the tree (symbolic of the jewish nation) having some of its branch's cut off. Paul explained it further by saying that new 'wild' branch's would be grafted on...these ones were the gentiles who would take the places of natural jews. And if you look at what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26 "...a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved..." So Isreal would be saved through the brining in of the gentiles to the kingdom arrangement, not the other way around.
You can read it fully in Romans 11:11-32

John 15:1-6 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans,...6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned" The jews were the original branch's , but most of them rejected Jesus therefore as branch's (the ones to inherit the kingdom promise) many of them lost the opportunity. However, the gentiles were given that opportunity and they began to take up some of the 144,000 seats of the kingdom.

It will now be said that I disappove of good works but I don't. I just disapprove of the way they are taught as being a part of God's plan of salvation when they are not. Since some seem to think James writings are for us how does it stack up with this?

Matthew 6:1-4
6 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
NKJV

Seems to me we are not supposed toi make a great deal about our works before men.

thats very true... we dont do good deeds to receive glory by men. Jesus words here show that our goodness should come from the heart and when it does God is pleased and he will reward us in secret.

But we should never think that doing good is anything like a 'work of law' because its not. Im sure you would never consider the goodness that God has shown toward mankind is anything like a 'work of law'
Just as God shows love and goodness to others, so we must imitate his example and show the same.

 

[brionne]

This is the test of those who would claim "I am of the Body". By what authority, and whose commission? What Gospel did you believe to conclude you are a Body member, The Lord's? It is not in His teachings, Peter's Gospel? You will not find justification with God by faith, only "if you do this, you shall be saved". It is only Paul who is the apostle for us, with the message of grace and election by faith. The others offer us nothing.

I appreciate what you are trying to convey, but I dont believe that i am a member of the 'body of christ'

Jesus words in his sermon on the mount....'the meek shall inherit the earth' for instance tell us that there will be a place on earth for his followers....obviously he wasnt refering to the elect who would be in heaven with him.
He also told the evildoer "you will be with me in paradise" thus confirming that even the wicked will have an opportunity to be redeemed....again not for a heavenly hope

i believe that I am of the 'other sheep' John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." who will 'inherit the earth'

I understand that the places in heaven number only 144,000. These ones were first made up by the Jews who accepted Jesus such as the apostles and those of Pentecost who received holy spirit among many others including proselytes at that time...but they also include the Gentile believers who received holy spirit as Paul plainly stated at Ephesians 2:6 "...and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus" & Ephesians 2:11-20 11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” ...19 Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets"


....so im guessing there will be a lot of jews who also will be among the 'great crowd' who inherit life on earth as subjects of the heavenly kingdom....some of those jews include the faithful Isrealites of old such as Able, Abraham, Noah, King David and millions of others.

 

[fivesense]

I appreciate what you are trying to convey, but I dont believe that i am a member of the 'body of christ'

Jesus words in his sermon on the mount....'the meek shall inherit the earth' for instance tell us that there will be a place on earth for his followers....obviously he wasnt refering to the elect who would be in heaven with him.
He also told the evildoer "you will be with me in paradise" thus confirming that even the wicked will have an opportunity to be redeemed....again not for a heavenly hope

i believe that I am of the 'other sheep' John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring." who will 'inherit the earth'

I understand that the places in heaven number only 144,000. These ones were first made up by the Jews who accepted Jesus such as the apostles and those of Pentecost who received holy spirit among many others including proselytes at that time...but they also include the Gentile believers who received holy spirit as Paul plainly stated at Ephesians 2:6 "...and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus" & Ephesians 2:11-20 11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” ...19 Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, 20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets"

....so im guessing there will be a lot of jews who also will be among the 'great crowd' who inherit life on earth as subjects of the heavenly kingdom....some of those jews include the faithful Isrealites of old such as Able, Abraham, Noah, King David and millions of others.

It is an interesting thought Pegg, that I should be speaking to someone who is one of the Lord's elect who will inherit the earth, being you. I can entertain such an idea, and I don't find it impossible for God to backpeddle and allow such a thing to be happening today. To believe you are not a member of the elect Body of Christ, and yet, to be having fellowship with God, leaves that as the only other possibilty. But, as I must rely upon the testimony of the apostles and prophets of God, and He has defined His program in detail, itinerary and all, minus the dates, I will have to see you as my sister in Christ, since it is the times of the Gentiles that are being fulfilled, not the Kingdom on earth which has been postponed. This being based upon my assumption that you are not a Jewess of the remnant.

I am becoming aware of your background, and beginning to understand you better. I have pleasure in our communications and we both have been chosen in Him for spotless presentation before God. Whether we understand correctly or not what is involved to get there is of small consequence. He will manifest us in that Day regardless of our ignorance or unbelief, rightness or wrongness, if we have, indeed, been saved by grace through the faith of Christ.

I also want to commend you on the large portion of Him you have already obtained through faith. I value our time.
fivesense

 

[brionne]

It is an interesting thought Pegg, that I should be speaking to someone who is one of the Lord's elect who will inherit the earth, being you. I can entertain such an idea, and I don't find it impossible for God to backpeddle and allow such a thing to be happening today. To believe you are not a member of the elect Body of Christ, and yet, to be having fellowship with God, leaves that as the only other possibilty. But, as I must rely upon the testimony of the apostles and prophets of God, and He has defined His program in detail, itinerary and all, minus the dates, I will have to see you as my sister in Christ, since it is the times of the Gentiles that are being fulfilled, not the Kingdom on earth which has been postponed. This being based upon my assumption that you are not a Jewess of the remnant.

I am becoming aware of your background, and beginning to understand you better. I have pleasure in our communications and we both have been chosen in Him for spotless presentation before God. Whether we understand correctly or not what is involved to get there is of small consequence. He will manifest us in that Day regardless of our ignorance or unbelief, rightness or wrongness, if we have, indeed, been saved by grace through the faith of Christ.

I also want to commend you on the large portion of Him you have already obtained through faith. I value our time.
fivesense

I think this is where a lot of our conversations become confused. I dont think all christians are of the elect....nor are all jews of the elect. John said that the number of elect would amount to only 144,000. Im pretty sure that in Jesus day there were more then 144,000 Jews in Jerusalem, so it would be seem unreasonable that ALL jews would be of the elect.

But tell me this, who do you consider to be the elect and who do you consider to be those who will live on earth?

I probably should first ask, do you think there are two different destinations.... such as a heavenly destination for some and an earthly destination for other?

 

[RichardBurger]

I think this is where a lot of our conversations become confused. I dont think all christians are of the elect....nor are all jews of the elect. John said that the number of elect would amount to only 144,000. Im pretty sure that in Jesus day there were more then 144,000 Jews in Jerusalem, so it would be seem unreasonable that ALL jews would be of the elect.

But tell me this, who do you consider to be the elect and who do you consider to be those who will live on earth?

I probably should first ask, do you think there are two different destinations.... such as a heavenly destination for some and an earthly destination for other?

Pegg, you are getting into an area that requires lots of study. May I suggest your reading a book, "Dispensational Truth" written by Clarence Larkin.

This book has many Dispensational Charts and diagrams to visually show what it is discussing. I found it to be the best work on Revelations I have ever studied. It was Copyrighted 1918 and was/is published by;
Rev. Clarence Larkin Est.
P.O. Box 334, Glenside, Pa. 19038

I do not know the availability of the book but you may be able to find it on the net. just type in the name of the book and the author.

http://www.larkinbooks.com/Catalog/clarence-larkin-dispensational-truth.htm

I think you may enjoy it very much. I certainly did.

 

[fivesense]

I think this is where a lot of our conversations become confused. I dont think all christians are of the elect....nor are all jews of the elect. John said that the number of elect would amount to only 144,000. Im pretty sure that in Jesus day there were more then 144,000 Jews in Jerusalem, so it would be seem unreasonable that ALL jews would be of the elect.

But tell me this, who do you consider to be the elect and who do you consider to be those who will live on earth?

I probably should first ask, do you think there are two different destinations.... such as a heavenly destination for some and an earthly destination for other?

I am of the same persuasion Pegg, that the confusion lies in misunderstanding one another, and not the word of God per se. He has been most gracious to provide clarity and certainty through His Writings to us, and it becomes a matter of our believing or not believing Him in order to arrive at truth.

Ro 9:22-24 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

My understanding of the "elect" is coupled with these passages as well as others. God, being the Creator of all things for His own glory, formed vessels in advance of His display of power to the universe. Those vessels, according to Paul, are both Jewish and Gentile in physical substance. Note that when Paul uses the word "us", it is for the purposes of identifying himself with his race, the Jews. He does this frequently in all his letters, and this should be remembered. Paul was always mindful of the Jewish dispensation:

AV Ro 9:2-4 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

It is declared by God through Holy Spirit that we are the elect of God. It is useless to persuade Him to change His mind about that, isn't it? The idea of election is not confined to the 144,000, though they are part of an election of God. It is the predesignation and formation of vessels ahead of their display in the earth that determines the title "elect" in Scripture.

AV Col 3:11-12 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all . Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


As to your last question, which should be first, what is my understanding of the two "destinations". I do not know of any destinations spoken of in the Writings. That would be a human term, and describing things from that point of view is dangerous. As I am beholden to literal interpretation and not willing to use reasoning beyond what is written, in the Unveiling of Jesus Christ (aka Revelations), I am told that it is the Jewish ecclesia that are the subject of the message, not us. We of the nations are mentioned, but not the object contained therein. I would be willing to supply support to this, if you are inclined to investigate further. In any case, the inheritance of Israel of the earth and the nations is the Promise. It has not happened yet, it is a Promise out of covenant, and the covenant-Keeper does not break His word, even if man does not oblige Him. He will perform His word, in spite of man's failure to comply. He is not beholden to man to fulfill His vows and nothing will ever keep Him from accomplishing His will. All Israel shall be saved. The twelve apostles will sit on earthly thrones ruling over the twelve tribes, there will be a resurrection of the faithful Jews to age-lasting life, and there will be a literal Kingdom on the earth. Do you not agree? Is this not what Daniel and the Scriptures attest to?

Now comes Paul's declaration. At His coming we will be changed into His image, to meet Him in clouds, to inherit the spiritual blessings of a Kingdom among the celestials, a heavenly and spiritual realm, where Christ is now seated at the right hand of God, to Whom we already have access to by faith. We do not, nor will we ever need the Jew for intercession on our behalf. This will not be true for the nations on earth during the Millennial reign of the Twelve and the Son of David. Israel, according to the Unveiling account, will intercede and provide healing and blessing from God to the nations, their alms and worship being brought to the Chosen People of God, the elect and the faithful of Israel who came out of the tribulation and the those deemed worthy out of the resurrection to life. On earth, salvation is of the Jews, always.

As I said to you, it is an interesting thing to ponder, you being part of the earthly elect, living amongst the Jews during the thousand year reign. Impossible? I would not go that far, but it would mean you are a Jewess of the Bride of Christ, not a member of the Body. And that involves a great deal of supernatural activity that is beyond my ken and experience.

fivesense

 

[brionne]

Pegg, you are getting into an area that requires lots of study. May I suggest your reading a book, "Dispensational Truth" written by Clarence Larkin.

This book has many Dispensational Charts and diagrams to visually show what it is discussing. I found it to be the best work on Revelations I have ever studied. It was Copyrighted 1918 and was/is published by;
Rev. Clarence Larkin Est.
P.O. Box 334, Glenside, Pa. 19038

I do not know the availability of the book but you may be able to find it on the net. just type in the name of the book and the author.

http://www.larkinboo...ional-truth.htm

I think you may enjoy it very much. I certainly did.

I found the book online and had a brief look at just one chapter which caught my attention. "Rightly dividing the word"
I found this interesting because i've heard the expression a few times on this forum about 'dividing' the word. I looked up the verse 2 Timothy 2:15 from where the expression comes from, but when I compared this verse to many other bibles from biblegateway, i found that the expression is worded differently. The word 'divide' is only used in the KJV, the Amplified, the Darby & Youngs....every other version on biblegateway expresses the verse as:

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and - who correctly handles the word of truth"

When I looked in my greek interlinear (which presents the verses literally from greek to english) I found the rendering was:

"Be diligent yourself approved to present to God a workman unashamed - keeping on a straight course the message of truth"

This in itself makes me cautious as to how much weight im going to put any the rest of this pastors book because if he is basing the teaching about 'dividing the church' on this one verse, then I think he may have made a fatal error right at the outset.

Im a stickler for correct translation and I cant see how the idea of 'dividing' the word can come from this verse....there are so many translators who have not used this word because its obviously not what the greek implies or even states.

 

[Paul]

I...

Im a stickler for correct translation and I cant see how the idea of 'dividing' the word can come from this verse....there are so many translators who have not used this word because its obviously not what the greek implies or even states.

Check it in Greek:

2Ti 2:15 σπουδασον σεαυτον δοκιμον παραστησαι τω θεω εργατην ανεπαισχυντον ορθοτομουντα (G3718 V-PAP-ASM)τον λογον της αληθειας

2Ti 2:15 Study (G4704) to shew (G3936) thyself (G4572) approved (G1384) unto God, (G2316) a workman (G2040) that needeth not to be ashamed, (G422) rightly dividing (G3718) the (G3588) word (G3056) of truth. (G225)

G3718
ὀρθοτομέω
orthotomeō
or-thot-om-eh'-o
From a compound of G3717 and the base of G5114; to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide.

G5114
τομώτερος
tomōteros
tom-o'-ter-os
Compound of a derivative of the primary word τέμνω temnō (to cut; more comprehensive or decisive than G2875, as if by a single stroke; whereas that implies repeated blows, like hacking); more keen: - sharper.

 

[brionne]

Check it in Greek:

2Ti 2:15 σπουδασον σεαυτον δοκιμον παραστησαι τω θεω εργατην ανεπαισχυντον ορθοτομουντα (G3718 V-PAP-ASM)τον λογον της αληθειας

2Ti 2:15 Study (G4704) to shew (G3936) thyself (G4572) approved (G1384) unto God, (G2316) a workman (G2040) that needeth not to be ashamed, (G422) rightly dividing (G3718) the (G3588) word (G3056) of truth. (G225)

G3718
ὀρθοτομέω
orthotomeō
or-thot-om-eh'-o
From a compound of G3717 and the base of G5114; to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide.

G5114
τομώτερος
tomōteros
tom-o'-ter-os
Compound of a derivative of the primary word τέμνω temnō (to cut; more comprehensive or decisive than G2875, as if by a single stroke; whereas that implies repeated blows, like hacking); more keen: - sharper.

Hi Paul,

I have a greek interlinear which translates the phrase 'ορθοτομουντα' as 'Keeping on a straight course'

And when the context of the passage is taken into considering, it is clearly seen to be referring to truthful teachings.
Paul says to Timothy in vs 16-18 to reject the false teachings of Hymenaeus and Philetus who did not teach honestly for they were teaching that the resurrection had already occurred thereby they failed to stay on a 'straight path' of truth.

Perhaps the word 'dividing' can be used in some way, but certainly not in this context which is likely why most other translators have not used the word 'dividing'. Hymenaeus and philetus teaching about the resurrection was untruthful according to Paul so its impossible that Paul was telling Timothy to teach in the same way as those two christians.

He was in fact telling Timothy NOT to teach untruth but rather to 'keep on a straight path' with regard to truth and not to deviate the way these two men had done.

 

[Paul]

Pegg,

To each his own. I will stay with "rightly dividing" = to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide

If you do not "rightly divide" you will have a hard time understanding Scripture.

 

[brionne]

Pegg,

To each his own. I will stay with "rightly dividing" = to make a straight cut, that is, (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message): - rightly divide

If you do not "rightly divide" you will have a hard time understanding Scripture.

well it seems that definition is accurately saying that the word of God should be expounded correctly which is exactly what Paul is telling timothy to do.

However, the point i was making about the Pastors use of this verse is that he is basing one of 'his' doctrines on the use of the word 'divide' in the verse which is a terrible error to make. No one chooses just one scripture with which to base a doctrine on.

He is saying that because 2 Timothy 2:15 has the phrase 'rightly divide the word' it means that there are 3 separate divisions among mankind.
He says
"We must learn to "Rightly Divide the Word of Truth"
While the "Word of Truth" is written FOR all classes of people, and FOR our learning, it is not addressed to all peoples in general. but part of it is addressed to the JEWS, part to the GENTILES, and part to the CHURCH."

So he has taken that scripture out of context. Paul is telling timothy to keep his teachings 'straight' and 'expound correctly' the word of truth.

But here the Pastor has used this one phrase to claim that the bible is divided into 3 parts for the benefit of 3 different subjects. Paul was not saying anything even remotely similar to that idea.


Can you tell me how this relates to Pauls words to 'expound correctly' the word of truth.?