The Gospel Of Grace
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Perhaps if you read the book you would see many truths. But it seems to me you are using one point to discredit the whole book.
That is your choice but I bet you read other books even though you may disagree with some things the authors says.
lets be realistic here
the pastor did take a scripture completely out of context and based an entire doctrine on it....what does that tell you?
It tells me that you have a different opinion, thats all it tells me.
You are hanging your truth on your opinion of what the scripture says. An opinion that I and many others disagree with. Your opinion does not make it a fact.
Perhaps if you read the book you might change your mind. Or is that what you are afraid of.
yes I am hanging my truth on what the scripture says.... as we all should do.
I'm pretty confident that I could look at another chapter and find more and more issues to raise but I dont want to do that. You might become offended and that is not my intention. If you are happy with what you have learnt from that book then that is all that matters. I have only read a small portion but based on that am satisfied that I will not find anything in there to my satisfaction and for that reason I will not read further.
The religious leaders of Jesus' day pretty much let their "hanging on to my own truth" run its course and ended up hanging a Man on a pole. God does not despise the humble, it is the proud that God resisted. Now, in the period of grace, those who will be enlightened to truth and away from deception will have to fall upon God's mercy, because many a false teachers is upon the scene. The heart that is broadened by grace and truth does not find it difficult to examine truth from all angles and perspectives to arrive at the higher ground. It is the religious and pious that cannot identify with anything but their own self-image and refrain from extending themselves in the search for truth, and rest upon the laurels of dead men and self-confidence.
For us, the called in Christ Jesus, we rely upon the living God.
fivesense
I agree that the religious leaders of Jesus day certainly did have their own form of truth....it was based on 'oral traditions' rather then on the written word of God.
Jesus was able to contradict their oral traditions in many of his teachings and showed the people how the religious leaders had deviated from God word and his ways. He denounced them for what they had done.
I think its much wise to stick to what we know to be written in the bible rather then introduce new doctrines that have no biblical backing....otherwise we may find ourselves falling into the same trap as those religious leaders.
Not true, Jesus said that they were dependent on the scriptures to do something that it couldn't do, give eternal life. They based their truth on their own interpretation and understanding of what the scriptures mean.
You diligently study* the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, John 5:39 NIV
[font="arial][quote]I think its much wise to stick to what we know to be written in the bible rather then introduce new doctrines that have no biblical backing....otherwise we may find ourselves falling into the same trap as those religious leaders[/quote][/font][/size][/size][/font]
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[font="trebuchet ms"][font="arial]Does it matter which bible? [/font]
which part of what I said is untrue?
that the religious leaders based their truth on their own interpretation of the sciptures, ie the oral tradition
or that they had deviated from the written word?
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[font="trebuchet ms"][font="arial]Does it matter which bible? [/font]
it only matters which bible if one is not prepared to research it properly.
The part where you said "I agree that the religious leaders of Jesus day certainly did have their own form of truth....it was based on 'oral traditions' rather then on the written word of God."
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[font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"]Truth is, they did base their truth on the scriptures but it was their own understanding of what the scriptures meant.[/color][/font]
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Paul was a Jew and refered to himself as part of the elect.
Titus 1
1Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,
Your belief that the elects eternal destination is heaven is also i believe wrong. Our eternal home is the New Jerusalem revealed in the Book of Revelation as coming down out of Heaven.
Revelation 3
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
And again:
Revelation 21
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
We shall be living in the New Jerusalem that will not be in heaven and also God will dwell in the New Jerusalem with us.
Revelation 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
So it is not the case that we are going to Heaven. It is a case of God is coming to earth.
The other sheep are still sheep. they together are all one and equal.
Are you saying that all those who accepted Jesus on the day of Pentecost (grown men amongst them where all innocent virgins? Because that is what the 144.000 are described as being.
Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand[/b], having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Note both the reference to Mount Zion in the passage and that these 144000 are innocents who are without fault. Now read the following OT passages showing the same thing. They are referred to as the Remnant.
Joel 2
32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
Isaiah 37:31,32
And the remnant who have escaped of the house of Judah Shall again take root downward, And bear fruit upward. For out of Jerusalem shall go a remnant, And those who escape from Mount Zion. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Also We are told that this will happen on the Day of the Lord. That is the Day of the return of the Messiah Jesus.
Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
So the 144,000 are a saved remnant of the Jewish people who are innocents. They will be saved at the time of the return of the Messiah Jesus. So those who accepted Jesus on the day of Pentecost are not the remnant, they are not the 144.000. They are of the elect as are all who accept Jesus and have faith in His Atonement for their Salvation.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Paul was not of Judah but of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
The problem with applying a literal interpretation to Revelations is that Revelation 1:1 says "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John"
The visions given to John should not be taken literally. They are symbolically represented as signs just as the beasts of Daniel are symbols of world governments, and the vision of Peter when he saw all the creeping things come down from heaven and was told to eat them.... they were symbolic visions...not literal.
How is it that God is going to live on earth with physical beings when he is a spiritual being? How does a city come down from heaven? There is certainly no physical things in heaven, so its not a physical city...this is why these verses cannot be literal.
Also consider, when God ruled the earth back in the time of Adam and Eve, did he have a city located in Eden where he sat on a throne? No he didnt. He dwelt in heaven and ruled from that location...just as he will do in 'new Jerusalem'
Absolutely not. I view this as symbolic of their spirituality, not their sexuality. This is why I say you cannot take the verse about a city coming down from heaven as literal....these are symbolic visions John was given...not literal ones.
You said it was "based on the oral tradition rather than on the written word of God."
No need to respond back though just wanted to point out that the scripture was contrary to your thought here.
but the oral traditions were not the written laws....they were the laws invented and 'added' to the mosaic law.
That is why Jesus said "you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition"
One example is with regard to divorce. The oral traditions allowed a man to divorce his wife on all sorts of grounds “even if she spoiled a dish for him” or “if he found another fairer than she.” according to the Mishnah.
Yet Jesus showed that according to the law, there was only 1 ground permissible for divorce. Matt 5:31-32 “Moreover it was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman [that is, one divorced on grounds other than sexual immorality] commits adultery.”
And even the prophets spoke against dealing 'treacherously' with ones wife and said that God hated divorcings at Malachi 2:13-16
So you see, the jewish teachers invented their own laws which were in stark contrast to the Mosaic law.
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