St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Like you, I have changed my views over the years, and suppose I will change more as I move forward.
On the forum, most are selling, but few are buying. A failed spiritual economy. Stagnant. Like the Dead Sea.
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The gospel was preached even to those who are DEAD
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On the forum, most are selling, but few are buying. A failed spiritual economy. Stagnant. Like the Dead Sea.
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You are calling God a liar, then!! I'm sorry if you find my words to sound too harsh. A child of God should be able to teach and also be able to be taugh.t
Don't squander your time too long, as today is still the day of salvation. We don't have a guarantee how long we have on this earth.
It's because those who come to the market place are NOT all children of God.
To God Be The Glory
No I haven't read the Didache....haven't really read much apart from the bible to be honest.
The Sabbath (Saturday) is the 7th day (rest), and the following day is the day Jesus rose from the dead, which is actually the eighth day which is foreshadowed in the Law (a new day - a newly created day in which all things become new). And I believe it speaks wonderfully to consecration and resurrection life.
I like that Chapter 14.
We need to be careful of that word "all". It is sometimes only "all" within a limited context, as someone so rightly put it recently. But Jesus did die for all people, just that as we know not every individual will accept His salvation (which only comes through accepting and receiving HIM).
I dont' think I'm going to try and directly comment on every verse you have posted here at this time, and some of them I already did comment on when you posted in other threads. But have you read the entirety of Romans 9 - which gives us the context for v. 16 you posted.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have read, and am familiar with, all of Romans chapter nine. Good question, thanks.
My short answer would be to say that verse 16 says "therefore", which makes it a conclusive statement.
And verse 22 begins with "What if", which makes it a hypothetical.
And frankly, the balance of the chapter does not sway me from my general conclusions
about the good character of God, nor his plans for ALL of humankind. Thanks.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Romans 9:22 NIV
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known,
bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
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Well, those verses together let us know that the Lord has mercy on who He has mercy, and on others He doesn't.
Getting into it a little further, understanding that I have is like this: scripture says we are elect according to His foreknowledge. So it seems His sovereignty over these things and 'election' is based on His foreknowledge, not in a kind of fatalistic sense. But His hardening of a heart is a judgment. Like sending a strong delusion to those who received not a love of the truth is judgment. As Pharaoh was the example....if a soul continually resists the Spirit at some point that soul will become completely hardened against God and perish. Believers who willfully and continually sin are likewise in danger of becoming hardened and unable to repent and so will perish. How many times did God try to reach Pharaoh to get him to soften and submit to God's will.....many times. That was God's goodness and patience....but in the end Pharaoh reaped God's severity really due to his own fault. Ultimately the Lord having foreknowledge of Pharaoh's response wove it all into His plans and sovereign will.
Hope this isn't going out of my lane with this, and don't think I can even explain it very well at the moment (times when I have more clarity than other times).....but I wonder if there is a difference between God's express will, and His sovereign will which involves His foreknowledge. He being willing that none perish may be talking about His express will, but not necessarily His sovereign will for every soul, because He already foreknows that not all will be willing to receive Christ.
It's not His express will that people suffer in this life either...."in all our afflictions He is afflicted." But given the realities on the ground and foreknowing everything that will happen to everyone, and His ultimate wisdom in what He allows, He weaves it all into His sovereign will, so that not even one sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father. Bible says In everything give thanks for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.....but not everything is necessarily His express will....but His sovereign will in the things He allows....and His people are always safe in the Lord and His sovereign will, because He has gone before us in everything d/t His foreknowledge, and prepared the way.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
For all eternity?
Where is the mercy and forgiveness in that?
Is his alleged fury an anger management issue?
Why would he destroy his own creation when things could be solved through simple communication?
Even fallen humankind are capable of that. Why is God supposedly deficient in this regard?
Would the one who taught us to love our enemies incinerate his own? Seems hypocritical.
These are some of the contradictions I see in the message of the church.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That's good, thanks. Still...
We can't around the fact that some are predestined to destruction because God did not draw them to himself.
Sure, he had foreknowledge of the outcome, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority weren't predestined to destruction
from the church's perspective. I can't accept this, of course.
In the end God hardened Pharaoh's heart. And this served God's purposes, I suppose.
It wouldn't have been much of a story if Pharaoh had let them go at first request, right?
Same with Judas, I think. But I suppose the story would have survived without a betrayer?
The book of Acts tells us that Judas went to "his place". We assume the worst. But... ???
We cannot undo by an act our own will what only God could do in the fist place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice. And the good shepherd is one who
leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one and bring them back. So...
Goodness and patience? There were nasty consequences for the Egyptians. Did you forget about that?
A plague of frogs, plagues of gnats and flies and locusts, plagues on livestock and boils and hail, shall I continue?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting point. Perhaps you found a theological contradiction? I know I have.
Does that sound like the same individual that would incinerate someone for not receiving "a free gift"?
What's "free" about that? Sounds rather costly to me. If not downright extortion. What is the church feeding us?
--- PARODY ---
Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?
Indeed. ???
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If you mean that there's a contradiction of claiming that Jesus's sacrifice redeems all mankind, and then saying that many of mankind are destined for the "second death", then that is not a contradiction, just a misunderstanding of the Scriptures.
Adam and Eve failed their first trial for eternal life, before they had any offspring, and as a result all of mankind have inherited an imperfect, corrupted, sinful nature from Adam, and so all have been condemned to die. However, the merit of Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for all of mankind, including Adam and Eve, to be forgiven and restored to life. Everyone will be redeemed, everyone will have theirs sins forgiven, everyone will be resurrected to life again. The slate is then wiped clean (all sins forgiven), but then comes the trial/testing for eternal life. It is an individual trial; this time you can't be condemned to die due to somebody else's sin. The trial starts after they have been resurrected to life again, at the start of Christ's 1,000 year reign, and ends at the end of the 1,000 years when they will be judged based on their works during the 1,000 years. Some will fail the testing and be judged not worthy of eternal life, and they will die a second time, and never be resurrected to life again - they will perish.
The Church is a special case, a calling from God to become a new creation, which is why Christians are forgiven when they become Christians, and their trial starts immediately, and ends at their death or rapture. It is the narrow (more difficult) way to eternal life, but the rewards are worth it!
It takes all of the merit of Jesus' sacrifice to redeem even just one man, so all of the merit is required to redeem all Christians. But Christians are under a covenant of sacrifice, following in Jesus footsteps, and they must sacrifice their lives too, as Jesus did, which is why all Christians will die, even after they have been redeemed. It is only after the completed Church have all died (at the first resurrection and rapture) that the merit of Jesus' sacrifice can be returned in full and then applied to the rest of mankind. That is why nobody can be redeemed and made perfect until after the first resurrection of the Church.
Romans 12:1 (WEB):
(1) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
Psalms 50:5 (WEB):5) “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.”
Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):(39) These all {faithful people in Old Testament times}, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
What do you make of this?
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I like your take on this.
Most claim that the narrow way and the broad way separates the saved from the lost.
Thus alleging that God is making sport of our eternal destination. "Few there be that find it..."
Although I probably don't agree with your conclusion. Salvation by works?
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, thanks.
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It's in harmony with what I wrote.
Romans 5 (WEB):
(12) Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.
(15) But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Because of Adam's one sin, he and all his posterity were condemned to slow decay leading to death ("The wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23). Jesus' sacrifice redeems Adam, restoring his right to life, and therefore redeems all his posterity too. Nobody descended from Adam was born perfect, everyone has inherited Adam's imperfect and decaying nature. They have therefore not had an opportunity for a fare trial for eternal life. Now that Jesus has paid the redemption price, everyone will be resurrected to life again, restored back to perfection during Christ's 1,000 year reign, and undergo a trial for eternal life. Jesus' sacrifce has saved everyone from death, but there is still a trial to pass through before anyone can be judged as worthy of eternal life (as humans living on the earth) - there is still the risk of a second (permanent) death.
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Only Christians are currently saved, as long as they remain faithful until their death. Everyone else is unsaved - they will be saved during Christ's 1,000 years reign. Christians will have the honour and pleasure of sharing Christ's reign, helping to restore everyone back to human perfection.
Not everyone is called to become part of God's new creation, to become members of the body of Christ - most are destined to remain part of God's human creation. For example, nobody who lived before Christ's ministry could be called, which is why Jesus said, in Matthew 11:11 (WEB), "Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he". The whole world has never been wholly converted to Christianity, and it won't be until Christ's 1,000 year reign.
Romans 8:28-30 (WEB):
(28) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(30) Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified.Ephesians 1:4-5 (WEB):
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,
Salvation comes from Jesus' sacrifice, condemnation comes from our works. By Adam's works we were all condemned to death. We are all saved from death resulting from Adam's sin (and our inherited sinful nature), by Jesus' redeeming sacrifice. Whether or not we will have eternal life will be dependent on our works. For most that will be their works after their resurrection, during Christ's 1,000 years reign. For Christians, God works in us, Philippians 2:13 (WEB):
(13) For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
but Christians have to work too, 2 Peter 1:4-10 (WEB):
(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
(5) Yes, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence; and in moral excellence, knowledge;
(6) and in knowledge, self-control; and in self-control perseverance; and in perseverance godliness;
(7) and in godliness brotherly affection; and in brotherly affection, love.
(8) For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9) For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
(10) Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I think that's an unsupportable doctrinal claim. Context proves it.
A scary thought too. Many old people are suffering from dementia and other mental issues.
Might we lose our salvation due to that at the end of our lives?
What a terrible thing. to claim faithfulness to the end to preserve our salvation.
Otherwise we're toast? Yikes! Bad news.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Although I probably don't agree with your conclusion. Salvation by works?
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, thanks.
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Although I probably don't agree with your conclusion. Salvation by works?
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, thanks.
That answers my question, thanks. Salvation by works.
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MANY PEOPLE HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE NATURE OF SALVATION!!
They believe all one has to do is accept the Lord Jesus, not knowing that they have no power to do so (John15:16), because they are spiritually dead. and that salvation is of God alone.
Secondly, one has to belong to Jesus (Matthew 1:21), for his sins to be redeemed.
Thirdly, Jesus said, "No one who is saved can be plucked out of my Father's hand." (paraphrased, John10:28-29).
Based on just the verses above, "How many sins did Christ redeemed for His people, seeing that the wages of sin (singular) is death? THAT'S RIGHT, ALL OF THEIR SINS!!
Now tell me what sin can a saved person commit that will put him to hell? N-O-N-E....O.S.A.S.
To God Be The Glory
God through Moses gave them many opportunities to obey Him. Each time when they didn't, discipline ensued, for their good if only they would have learned by it. Finally God's goodness and longsuffering came to an end, because His will wasn't going to be thwarted forever.
The wrath of God is an overwhelming subject and I don't feel up to it right now. Just will try to touch on it, at least seeing through a glass darkly, if God will give the grace. In Genesis we learn that God being God, knows both good and evil....scripture also tells us that it was/is He who creates evil. Though not unrighteously, but justly. It's evil from our point of view, but righteous from the point of view of God's justice. It's like two sides to His nature....both justice and mercy....behold both His goodness and His severity. If we don't believe God would pour out wrath and judge this world all we have to do is look around us in this present time and see the evil and suffering and death that He allows under His watch ever since the rebellion in the Garden of Eden. The whole world is under His wrath even now, though in a limited way, because right now He is still longsuffering. That's why the lost, as we all once were, are called children of wrath. Psalm 90 says all our days are spent under His wrath. I believe physical death is the first death which is like a foreshadowing and warning to us of the second death. I don't consider God's wrath to be His explicit will as such, but more like a natural consequence of sin.....God is a consuming fire and can't deny His own nature. So He isn't going to allow sin and darkness to exist forever, at some point at the appointed time it will be rooted out, purged and destroyed.......it's just necessary and inevitable because He is HOLY.......but He has provided a shelter from His wrath for whosever will. Unfortunately not all will avail themselves of what He has provided, ie, the cleft of the Rock, the Lamb of God....the Son of Man in the furnace.
Some scriptures that might be helpful:
Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 3:3-6
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Scripture says Noah, by his righteousness in obeying the Lord and building the ark, condemned the world. (Heb 11:7) Jesus, ie, His righteousness and obedience unto death similarly condemned the unrighteous world and devil. (John 12:31) ( and the church does also, when we are righteousness and obedient according to their example) The world has been judged guilty and sentence pronounced. I guess we could say the clock has been ticking on the longsuffering of God ever since, until the appointed day comes when the sentence must be carried out. Seems that it's already a done deal from heaven's perspective as we see in John 12:31, much like the Lamb was already slain from the foundation of the world I believe, but awaited an appointed day.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The New Testament informs us that no one can keep the law perfectly. The reason we need redemption, right?
So, I don't think "God's goodness and longsuffering came to an end, because His will wasn't going to be thwarted forever." is valid.
Probably nothing to do with that. Because when it comes to our inability to measure up, that will never end. At least in this lifetime.
And I suppose we need to consider what we are inferring when we claim that God's "goodness and longsuffering" (forbearance)
can come to an end. Because forbearance and goodness are part of the fruit of the Spirit. How could he lack in these?
Would that not make him morally inferior to his standard for us? Same could be said for gentleness and self-control.
Can the fruit of the Spirit manifest the sort of unbridled wrath that we associate with God?
If so, would we be wrong to engage in such? Yes, this would be wrong.
Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Indeed.
Curious thing, that. Seems the serpent was right about that aspect.
And God made it disobedience to partake in it. And the result our God-given human conscience, knowing good and evil.
And also the death penalty that came with it. Curious thing, that.
Well, if he is omnipotent, he has the choice. I don't think he painted himself into a corner and there's no way out.
As if the trajectory of human history was poorly conceived. "Oops, didn't see that coming. Now what?" (incinerate)
Interesting that Satan appears regularly before the divine council if evil is not allowed in God's presence.
Or that his Spirit indwells us. How could that be?
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