So who is the king maker? YOU or God who has elected the called in eternity past, before the foundation of the world, and are made destined to salvation?
2 Corinthians 5:17 is the RESULT of salvation and NEVER the CAUSE!!
To God Be The Glory
The gospel was preached even to those who are DEAD
- Thread starter TonyChanYT
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
To God Be The Glory
Rom 14 is particularly talking about Christ being Lord of those who died in faith. But also, certainly Jesus Christ has been given all authority (Lordship) over everyone and everything regardless. Confessing Jesus as Lord being by the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean they have RECEIVED the Holy Spirit. He can by His Spirit (because He is Lord and has all power and authority) make a donkey confess Him as Lord, or rocks for that matter, and it wouldn't mean the Spirit is indwelling the donkey and that the donkey or the rocks have eternal life.
We can't use certain verses to support an idea that directly contradicts so many other scriptures. If our idea of the meaning of some verses directly contradicts other teachings, then we must not be rightly dividing those verses. Was the rich man in Hades who now knew the truth after death saved, or was he still in Hades? What is the lesson being taught in that story? Was it written for the purpose of reassuring the reader that they will have eternal life and be saved even if they were in disbelief and their life was ungodly? Of course not. Wasn't that man experiencing regret and wishing he could warn his brothers not to end up where he had ended up? Didn't Abraham specifically say the rich man couldn't now go to where Abraham was in spite of his regret, because of a gulf fixed between the two places? No way out of there in other words.
And the whole idea being presented with the lake of fire is likewise that of FINALITY FOREVER....nothing mentioned or alluded to at all about souls ending up in a better place after the lake of fire. On the contrary it is being presented as being the end, final. Destruction is destruction I would think...the opposite of eternal life. God is not lying to us. Does anything come out of Gehenna after being burned to ashes? No, the whole idea of Gehenna is also destruction isn't it - the END of the broad road. I mean clearly that is the message being conveyed in so many scriptures.....it's the precise reason there will be gnashing of teeth.
No disagreement here with this post, but you were earlier seeming to agree with Steven's idea that fallen man will no longer be fallen after death and therefore everyone will receive eternal life.
One must receive the “ Living “ seed of God ,The Holy Spirit ,which is his Living word....we become Born Again by Gods Living seed( His word) Holy Spirit .... then we receive our new heart, as Spirit gives birth to spirit...
1 Peter 1:23
King James Version
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That saw cuts both ways. Why do you assume that your interpretation is the RIGHT one?
/
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
A right understanding RECONCILES all the scriptures by the Holy Spirit.
And rightly dividing the word of truth involves the Holy Spirit.....not the carnal mind which is at enmity against God and the truth. Eyes to see, ears to hear, and rightly divided understanding is by the Holy Spirit, not of our own. Understanding is not something we drum up or figure out, it is something that is RECEIVED.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
So... you are claiming that YOUR personal interpretation is SPIRIT inspired and EVERYONE else's interpretation is of "the carnal mind which is at enmity against God and the truth"?
Thanks.
/
I wasn't claiming anything for myself. Just saying that the truth reconciles and harmonizes the whole counsel of God, without contradictions.
But it's by faith and the Spirit isn't it....the same way we RECEIVED Jesus.
There is a difference between the flesh (carnal mind) and Spirit (mind of Christ) which can be discerned, if we have discernment. And discernment itself is of the Spirit, not of the flesh.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Right. I just don't buy the theory that there are no contradictions.
The most obvious one to me is three different biblical views of the final judgement.
My preferred view being Ultimate Redemption. (UR) Christian Universalism.
I think there is a total disconnect on the part of many Christians about where the Bible came from.
They speak of it as if it is a single book written by a single author in a single sitting.
As if God himself penned the book. Not so.
There are even different canons of scripture. Of which one do they speak?
/
Last edited:
If you have the correct understanding of the Scriptures then there will be no apparant contradictions.
2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV):
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
WEB:(16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
I was talking about there being no contradictions in the truths of scripture. Yes, I agree there certainly are a lot of contradicting doctrines of man out there. I believe the scriptures that we have are genuinely inspired by God, even if flavoured a little bit by the individuality of the writers....just like God can minister by His Spirit through different vessels, but the works are HIS and of HIS Spirit. Have wondered whether the institutional church might have left some writings out of the canon, especially maybe there were more letters that the apostles had written (just my own wondering). But at least having a canon preserved those writings that we do have, thankfully, and it seems plenty enough of rich fare for us to go on.
What do you take the words destruction, perish, and perdition to mean? These words depict the opposite of salvation. One concept necessarily precludes the other...they are mutually exclusive. Can't be both heading for perdition/destruction and salvation from destruction (eternal life) at the same time. It's either one or the other. God isn't messing around, and neither is the devil.
Heb 4:7
Again, he LIMITETH a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
2Co 6:1-2
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Isa 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
Lk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Look, I'm nobody but here's what I believe the Lord has been gracious to illuminate with these passages. THIS LIFE is the accepted time and day of salvation. Which is a LIMITED DAY of salvation. The master shuts the door to His house/kingdom to each soul at the end of this life - when “night” cometh to each one of us when we can no longer work. The ones standing without the door begging to be let in, is not talking about the living. It’s talking about those who died and realized the truth after death when it was too late. These verses are not teaching there is salvation to be had after death, are they not rather teaching and warning the opposite!
YES, so!! God may not have written the Books called the Holy Bible, per se, but dictated the words He wanted written. We read in 2 Peter 1:20-21:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
You decide. The Bible is God's WORD, do you really think He will leave it up to men what books to compile the Bible as a whole?
To God Be The Glory
Last edited:
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We are left to make assumptions about what "All scripture" is exactly. ???
What did it mean at the time of this writing? The NT canon did not exist until the 4th century.
I have heard the standard apologetic, but you can provide it for our readers if you like. Thanks.
/
Last edited:
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
If you read the writings of the early church (the stuff that was left out) you might agree with me that they did a good job of limiting to the ones we have. Have you read the Didache? (Teachings of the 12 Apostles) I'm glad that wasn't included. What a mess. Does serve as a good historical document though. Confirms what the Apostle John meant when he wrote in Rev. 1:10. "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit..." The Lord's Day is the day of Christian gathering. (Sunday, the first day of the week)
Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."
/
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
This is contradictory to what the Bible says about the redemption of all humankind. That's my point. There are contradictions.
Why do you assume your opinion is the correct one?
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man,
Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,
but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things,
whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
/
Alas, I believe, there to be No contradictions in the Word of God. In the written Bible with its many versions, translations and interpretations, men do indeed find problems and differences. When they do find such things, the problems are not with God or His Word. They are really, I believe, in the ways of men. What is written, is written as God directed some man/men to write it. What was written by inspiration, must be, I believe, also be correctly discerned by inspiration... God's inspiration!
The problems are like the obstacles found in a fast running river full of rocks, logs and such things. Do we have our own hand on the tiller of our boat or do we have a Master boatman. [the Holy Spirit] always directing our movements to avoid calamity?
| Jer 10:23 | O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. |
Without the Holy Spirit, are we not walking blindly... even in the Bible we are reading or hearing read? Who is always being led by the Holy Spirit? How about that man who is never makes mistakes in his direction and never sins. For this reason Apostle Paul wrote, "Quench not the Spirit"! How many of us never quench the Holy Spirit in us and take hold of our own tiller?
| Ro 8:14 | For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. |
All of us, who have not already overcome all of the world of our temptations [as Jesus did] and our sinful ways, do still at times quench the Holy Spirit. When we do are we being led by the right hand of God or...?
If our preferences are always equal to God's preferences, then we should be OK. If not... then how are we to know it? How often in our walk with God should we allow Him to reevaluate all of our beliefs or positions, or preferences? Are there any of our held essentials about which we are so certain that we will not allow them to be examined yet again? Have none of us ever changed anything in his beliefs, positions or preferences since first he started walking with God? I most certainly have. My walk with God started 74 years ago and continues. He has changed me and although I have come a long way, He is not finished with me yet. I strive to allow God to check me out on every point, every day.
Consider Jesus:
| Lu 2:52 | And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. |
The Bible is God's message to mankind. Therefore, there are no contradictions in Scripture, only apparent ones however, God also said that He will bring strong delusions and the unrighteous will believe a lie. I feel so sad for you to think that God can lie because He said: "Many are called but few are chosen!!"
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 reads:
9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The Scripture verses you wrote in post #76 declares that in all of the world, Jesus IS the ONLY SAVIOR and none else!! This is the gist of those verses.
I leave you with this verse to ponder and believe, Matthew 1:21:
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (not the world) from their sins."
To God Be The Glory
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Right. I just don't buy the theory that there are no contradictions.
I'm noticing a curious thing here. Respondents assume by my comments,
like the one quoted above that I am having issues with God.
When in fact it is humankind that I am having issues with.
Somehow the problems that I have with the behavior of believers, the Bible
and the institution of the church are seen as an affront against God.
What should be recognized as legitimate concerns on my part are seen as
a threat to the rigid code of the tribe.
/
Right. I just don't buy the theory that there are no contradictions.
Thanks for your reply.
I'm noticing a curious thing here. Respondents assume by my comments,
like the one quoted above that I am having issues with God.
When in fact it is humankind that I am having issues with.
Somehow the problems that I have with the behavior of believers, the Bible
and the institution of the church are seen as an affront against God.
What should be recognized as legitimate concerns on my part are seen as
a threat to the rigid code of the tribe.
/
Last edited:
I do not see in you or in most people here calling themselves, Christian, as having issues with God. There are, however, it seems, many who have little or no ability to be flexible, that is, sincerely admitting the possibility that some man may have a better grasp on a particular point than they do. We may not easily change, but we do, I believe, need to be able to change.
Even so! We need not be affronted on God's behalf... not while we are still human and know less than God does.
That which really is fixed in God's mind cannot be threatened. What individual or church group knows certainly that they have the mind of God on everything?
Similar threads
