The gospel was preached even to those who are DEAD

[keithr]

I think that's an unsupportable doctrinal claim. Context proves it.

Revelation 2:26 (WEB):

(26) He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations.​

A scary thought too. Many old people are suffering from dementia and other mental issues.
Might we lose our salvation due to that at the end of our lives?

If we suffer from such deterioration of our minds and bodies at the end of our lives, then I guess we just have to trust God's judgement that He will not blame us for our loss of memory and reasoning power. My dad suffered from dementia, badly, so that he completely forgot who we were, and forgot everything he had learned - he couldn't speak and had the apparant intelligence of a very young infant. It was as if his mind regressed backwards in time to as he was shortly after being born. He even forgot that he had been a heavy smoker virtually all of his life, and just stopped smoking - something he had never done before! I considered him dead, as far as the person I used to know, while his body continued functioning for a few more years. I hope that I won't end up with dementia!

 

[Lizbeth]

The New Testament informs us that no one can keep the law perfectly. The reason we need redemption, right?
So, I don't think "God's goodness and longsuffering came to an end, because His will wasn't going to be thwarted forever." is valid.
Probably nothing to do with that. Because when it comes to our inability to measure up, that will never end. At least in this lifetime.

And I suppose we need to consider what we are inferring when we claim that God's "goodness and longsuffering" (forbearance)
can come to an end. Because forbearance and goodness are part of the fruit of the Spirit. How could he lack in these?
Would that not make him morally inferior to his standard for us? Same could be said for gentleness and self-control.
Can the fruit of the Spirit manifest the sort of unbridled wrath that we associate with God?
If so, would we be wrong to engage in such? Yes, this would be wrong.

Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

/

Looks to me that God also exercises wisdom in choosing to exercise either His goodness or His severity. Because obviously what happened in the end? The angel of death....judgment/wrath/severity. Only those who took shelter under the blood of the Lamb on their doorposts escaped judgment when once the Lord decided to stop forbearing so to speak.

But even after being thus defeated, Pharaoh (devil) and his army doubled down on their iniquity and came chasing after the people of God after they had left Egypt....and we can read of his eventual fate.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
I think that's an unsupportable doctrinal claim. Context proves it.

Only Christians are currently saved, as long as they remain faithful until their death.

Here's what you wrote. ^ (above)

Revelation 2:26 (WEB):
(26) He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations.

Not the same. Nothing about salvation. Hard to say what this means exactly.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

But even after being thus defeated, Pharaoh (devil) and his army doubled down on their iniquity and came chasing after the people of God after they had left Egypt....and we can read of his eventual fate.

This is interesting.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more
because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years
I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt,
the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Looks to me that God also exercises wisdom in choosing to exercise either His goodness or His severity. ...

Can we do that to demonstrate godly behavior?
Choose to exercise either goodness or severity. An option for us?
I don't see that in the list. "Severity." Is that a sugar-coated term for brutality?

Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Curious thing, that. Seems the serpent was right about that aspect.
And God made it disobedience to partake in it. And the result our God-given human conscience, knowing good and evil.
And also the death penalty that came with it. Curious thing, that.

Amen...that is a deep subject with more than one facet...alludes to the Law......through the Law came the KNOWLEDGE of sin (evil). But I'm talking about knowing good and evil in the sense of God having two sides to His nature. Knowing evil in the sense of being capable of justlyl sending evil when it is warranted. But not out of malice and blood lust or any such thing....only out of righteousness and justice. The Law is just and righteous, holy, and is even called spiritual. But whoso is in Christ is no longer UNDER the Law, ie, no longer condemned by it and no longer obligated to keep the ordinances of it. Law was made for the un-righteous, and still gets applied to those who are not under the blood/new covenant. God in this age of grace is still trying to tutor and discipline lost souls to Christ.

Well, if he is omnipotent, he has the choice. I don't think he painted himself into a corner and there's no way out.
As if the trajectory of human history was poorly conceived. "Oops, didn't see that coming. Now what?" (incinerate)

As I keep saying, because the bible says it...He HAS provided the way out. But not all will take it.

Interesting that Satan appears regularly before the divine council if evil is not allowed in God's presence.
Or that his Spirit indwells us. How could that be?

I put that down to God's longsuffering for a while until the cross when Satan fell like lightning, cast out of heaven down to here! Judged. Defeated. Or as good as. (But still acting contrary to that truth....like Pharaoh until he was finally destroyed.)

God's Spirit only indwells those who are SANCTIFIED by the blood of Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is interesting.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more
because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years
I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt,
the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

/

I dont know but it comes to mind that Jerusalem is called Egypt. Could it be talking allegorically here about Israel? And moreover it might be a prophecy of being gathered to the promised land of the gospel. Because when the OT speaks and prophecies of gathering Israel in other places, that is what it is talking about...being gathered to Christ (whosoever will of her). He gathering His flock.

I don't know the history of Egypt by any means, but I've never heard of the Egyptians being scattered to other nations historically...?

 

[St. SteVen]

Amen...that is a deep subject with more than one facet...alludes to the Law......through the Law came the KNOWLEDGE of sin (evil). But I'm talking about knowing good and evil in the sense of God having two sides to His nature. Knowing evil in the sense of being capable of justlyl sending evil when it is warranted. But not out of malice and blood lust or any such thing....only out of righteousness and justice. The Law is just and righteous, holy, and is even called spiritual. But whoso is in Christ is no longer UNDER the Law, ie, no longer condemned by it and no longer obligated to keep the ordinances of it. Law was made for the un-righteous, and still gets applied to those who are not under the blood/new covenant. God in this age of grace is still trying to tutor and discipline lost souls to Christ.

You may have seen my topic on the law, the Law, God's law and Christ's law. Link below.
These things are easily confused. The law of Moses was only given to the Israelites. (the law)
The only law humankind is liable to is God's law of human conscience. IMHO

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

How many laws in this passage?

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means
I might save some.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

As I keep saying, because the bible says it...He HAS provided the way out. But not all will take it.

If you mean in this lifetime, not all have had the opportunity.
As you know, the end will not come until the gospel reaches everywhere.
Which hasn't happened yet. What of those it never reached?
We know that every knee will bow and tongue acknowledge Christ as Lord.
That would be everyone. But not until the afterlife.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

/

 

[keithr]

St. SteVen said:
That answers my question, thanks. Salvation by works.

I think you misunderstood my reply. Salvation is being saved from the penalty of death due to our sins. Our works cannot save us from that; only Jesus' sacrifice saves us and allows for the resurrection of everyone to life again. From the resurrection onwards, it is our works, how people respond to a full knowledge of the truth under Jesus' righteous reign, that will determine whether or not they will be allowed to live eternally. So it's salvation from death by Jesus' sacrifice (redeeming everyone), but salvation from the second death by their works after the resurrection - after redemption and forgiveness, everyone faces a new trial and judgement for eternal life.

And, of course, for Christians we are called to a different path - we are saved by Jesus' sacrifice applied to us when we repent and are baptized, our sins are forgiven then, and then we have to fight the good fight against the evil temptations of the world, our flesh, and Satan, and how successfully we overcome these temptations, and if we remain faithful to the end of our lives, will determine our reward in our inheritance.

1 Corinthians 15:41-42 (WEB):

(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.​

(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead {Christians}. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.​

 

[keithr]

Not the same. Nothing about salvation. Hard to say what this means exactly.

I quoted Revelation 2:26 (WEB):

(26) He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations.​

or, for different punctuation, MKJV:

(26) And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.​

because it mentions overcoming "to the end", meaning until death (as in John 13:1, "... Jesus, knowing that his time had come that he would depart from this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end"). Only if we maintain our faith will we remain overcomers, and we have to maintain it until the end of our lives on earth.

Similarly, we will only have a part in the first resurrection, and be raised with an immortal nature, if we maintain our faith and are overcomers until the end - Revelation 2:11 (WEB):

(11) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.​

As Albert Barnes' Notes for verse 11 says:

He that overcometh - The particular promise here is made to him that should “overcome”; that is, that would gain the victory in the persecutions which were to come upon them. The reference is to him who would show the sustaining power of religion in times of persecution; who would not yield his principles when opposed and persecuted; who would be triumphant when so many efforts were made to induce him to apostatize and abandon the cause.​

 

[St. SteVen]

Only if we maintain our faith will we remain overcomers, and we have to maintain it until the end of our lives on earth.

Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful explanation.
But to me, this undermines eternal security.

To me, we cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

/

 

[keithr]

To me, we cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

Could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Lizbeth]

You may have seen my topic on the law, the Law, God's law and Christ's law. Link below.
These things are easily confused. The law of Moses was only given to the Israelites. (the law)
The only law humankind is liable to is God's law of human conscience. IMHO

Haven't seen it, but what about this:

Act 17:30-31

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Rom 2:11-12

For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

If you mean in this lifetime, not all have had the opportunity.
As you know, the end will not come until the gospel reaches everywhere.
Which hasn't happened yet. What of those it never reached?
We know that every knee will bow and tongue acknowledge Christ as Lord.
That would be everyone. But not until the afterlife.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

/

We've already talked about these points.

 

[St. SteVen]

Could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you mean.

Once Saved Always Saved. (OSAS) - LOL

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Further complicated by the fact that I am a Christian Universalist.
Everyone is already saved, but not everyone knows it yet.
There is no way to lose or forfeit that.

I hope that helps.

St. SteVen said:
To me, we cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Haven't seen it, but what about this:

Act 17:30-31

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Rom 2:11-12

For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Yes.
But what law is that?
1) The law
2) The Law (capital L)
3) God's law
4) Christ's law


Definitions: (my working definitions)
1) The law = the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses (the laws, not the books)
2) The Law (capital L) = The Books of the Law, the Pentateuch. the Torah
3) God's law = the universal law written on human conscience (our heart)
4) Christ's law = the commandments Christ gave us

/

 

[JunChosen]

Once Saved Always Saved. (OSAS) - LOL

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

And, John 10:27-29 which reads:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one.

Further complicated by the fact that I am a Christian Universalist.
Everyone is already saved, but not everyone knows it yet.
There is no way to lose or forfeit that.

Your doctrine/belief of universalism is alien to the Bible! If everyone is already saved and cannot lose or forfeit it, then rightly so, there shouldn't be anyone in hell, yet Scripture is very clear that hell will heavily be populated.

Definitions: (my working definitions)
1) The law = the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses (the laws, not the books)
2) The Law (capital L) = The Books of the Law, the Pentateuch. the Torah
3) God's law = the universal law written on human conscience (our heart)
4) Christ's law = the commandments Christ gave us

I beg to differ. The whole Bible is the Law Book of God. God does not have a law for Himself, for Christ, or for humankind. The Bible is one cohesive whole!!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful explanation.
But to me, this undermines eternal security.

To me, we cannot by an act of our will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation it is God's choice, not ours.

/

Our security is in Christ...as long as we remain in Him.

By an "act of our will"....? Not really...the enemy is more subtle than that, and falling away happens gradually....like the frog in the pot of water that is slowly heating up.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes.
But what law is that?
1) The law
2) The Law (capital L)
3) God's law
4) Christ's law


Definitions: (my working definitions)
1) The law = the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses (the laws, not the books)
2) The Law (capital L) = The Books of the Law, the Pentateuch. the Torah
3) God's law = the universal law written on human conscience (our heart)
4) Christ's law = the commandments Christ gave us

/

I'll have to come back to that, Lord willing.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your doctrine/belief of universalism is alien to the Bible!

It wasn't alien to the early church nor in the Bible.

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so...

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

/