Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
sorry,
But paul was not talking about the law in romans 4. There was no law when abraham was saved.. and he said we will be saved by that same faith
The Gospel!! What is it?
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But paul was not talking about the law in romans 4. There was no law when abraham was saved.. and he said we will be saved by that same faith
In this Abraham had faith that God was going to do what was right. He was told to offer up his son and in faith he did just that but what if he had not done as told would he still be said to have had faith?
Just as Abraham had to have faith in God so do we if he tells us to be baptized in the name of Christ FOR the remission of sin and to receive the spirit then we must trust him and do as he said if we do not trust his word on baptism then do we really have the faith of Abraham no we did not o as asked we question his word on it. Does that make any sense?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Abraham was told to offer his son decades after he was saved..
Was not the covenant of circumcision brought through Abraham if not sorry I got some studying to do?
OK little rusty on my old testament will have to go back and get it all lined out sorry for the false statement and thank you for shining light on this mistake.We study it again its been awhile.
I'm looking at when Abram was justified by God, apart from any works.
Genesis 15:1-6 KJV
1) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
God told Abram that his descendants would be innumerable, as the stars. Abram believed God, and God accounted Abram's belief for as righteousness.
Romans 4:2-3 KJV
2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Much love!
Abraham was circumcised after he believed, and was accounted righteous. Again, Romans 4 gives a detailed explanation how his circumcision was not what saved him. After believing, and being accounted righteous, Abram went on to do the right things.
Sorting out Abraham, the Church, and Israel will be needed for you to understand these things, I think.
I think what's at issue is clarifying that our reconciliation to God is accomplished in Christ alone, and that we receive this reconciliation by faith alone, and being reconciled, God gives us rebirth by His act alone, that being to baptize us - spirit - into Christ, His death and burial, so we can share His resurrection.
There is no work we do that saves us. Your assertion is, I believe, but God does not justify/recreate me until I do the deed, in this case, be water baptized.
I don't normally engage in "what if" arguments, knowing they are moldable, and not real. But here I will. What if a person trusts in Jesus to save them, and they die before being water baptized? Will they be saved? I answer, Absolutely yes!! Because it's not the water, it's the Spirit.
Much love!
Here is my problem After the cross we enter into a new covenant and I see we are told how that happens in Acts 2 and in that we are told to be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of sin and we shall receive the spirit. I do not see where that has changed but I see many more scripture that tells me that Acts 2:38 is the gospel truth and how one enters into the new covenant and receives the indwelling spirit.
Many point to Romans 6 and say it is not the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ but a holy spirit baptism not of water but I see scripture refuting that ideal. Then some say that water baptism which is the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ proven by scripture in Acts 10:47,48
is only for the Jews and not for the gentiles but that would contradict God when it is said he is no respecter of person for you have it one way for one and another for another but we are all to be united in the word for there is not one way or another but the way for all.
I know it is not scripture making all these contradictions so therefore it must be us.
Many point to Romans 6 and say it is not the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ but a holy spirit baptism not of water but I see scripture refuting that ideal. Then some say that water baptism which is the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ proven by scripture in Acts 10:47,48
is only for the Jews and not for the gentiles but that would contradict God when it is said he is no respecter of person for you have it one way for one and another for another but we are all to be united in the word for there is not one way or another but the way for all.
I know it is not scripture making all these contradictions so therefore it must be us.
After God justified him. It was a done deal when God told him to be circumcised.
Much love!
I will have to go back and get my facts straight on this have not been in the old testament in a long time and now it tells sorry if I dont got my facts straight will clear this up when I get time to get into it
My witnessing is off on some facts I must withdraw and find the truth but I do not see how this makes Acts wrong in its teaching but I guess I never knew nothing to start with the whole bible does not make any sense to me now I am sorry I tried to talk bible with you all for I apparently don't know what I am talking about. So I will withdraw until I know.
I believe you'll only come to see this once you've worked out that God still has a plan for national Israel. In other words, "dispensationalism". Maybe not in the way your think of it, I don't know. But the thing is . . . God was working a plan with Israel (that involved some gentiles), which He interrupted, and is working a plan with the gentiles (with some Israelites). And that He will return to His plan with Israel at the end of this age.
That God has different plans with different people shouldn't be difficult to accept, given the clear distinctions already seen.
To Adam, the Gospel was, You can eat from every tree but this one.
To Noah, build this ark, and you and your family will be saved.
To Abraham, you will have innumerable descendants.
To Moses, Keep this Law and you will be blessed.
Do you see what I mean?
Much love!
Please. I'm happy to share with you everything I've learned. There is no need to withdraw, and feel free to ask any questions.
Much love!
Again to me you have not dealt with the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ in detail does not Acts 2:38 mean what it says Does not romans 6 talk about Abts 2 Does not Acts 19 clarify that it is in Act 2 baptism in Christ name that the spirit is given?
If all those scripture are wrong them show me why
I know you most likely feel you have but I can not get my blinders off so help me to understand why they are wrong
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
that was not the law. And it never saved anyone.. Please study Galations
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Start in Gen 15. Where we are told abraham believed God and it credit to him as righteousness. Before he even cheated with his maid and had an illegitimate or bastard son.
We would need to focus on Israel and the Church.
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus addressed this to His disciples, who were at that that time all Jewish, and were being instructed to go the the gentiles (ethnos/nations/gentiles), teaching them, baptizing them, and I feel certain that refers to water.
They were sent to baptize.
1 Corinthians 1:17-18 KJV
17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Paul was not sent to baptize.
What happened in between?
How did this:
Isaiah 60:1-14 KJV
1) Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2) For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4) Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5) Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6) The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
7) All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8) Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9) Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Change to this:
Acts 28:23-29 KJV
23) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24) And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25) And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26) Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27) For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29) And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
And will this still be fulfilled?
Zechariah 14:8-11 KJV
8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10) All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
I believe it will be.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The other Gospel was a mixture of preaching Christ, as our example, and living by the Law of Moses. Peter and believing Jews had been driven back into a kind of spiritual apartheid, wanting to be separated away from Gentile Christians when fellow believing Jews were present. It wasn't really in Peter's heart to do this--just that he feared the power Jewish tradition had over Jews who had become Christians.
There are only two processes that had been in play in Paul's time.
1) Jews could live under the Law and enjoy a good relationship with God, as long as they obeyed the Law. (This is now outdated.) Or,
2) Jews could abandon the Law and its 613 requirements to live strictly by Christ's example and Spirit.
Paul's argument was that the Law was obsolete, inasmuch as Christ had become the necessary sacrifice for all, since all had sinned, including those under the Law. Remaining under the Law, when Christ had been made available, then become a form of rebellion against God.
The Law all along had only been a temporary fix until Christ could come and provide eternal redemption--not just a temporary fix. To return to the Law, or to a "temporary fix," was repugnant to God and missed the entire purpose of the Law, which was to lead to Eternal Redemption.
Christ himself, therefore, is the Gospel. His life is the example and the source of our own virtue, when we receive this as the truth and obtain God's Spirit as a result. Moral Law just guides us in recognition of the Spirit's voice so that we know we are walking in the example of Christ's love.
The Gospel is our unbridled connection to God, free from all legal restraints, and enduring forever. Christ is the legal basis of our eternal relationship to God. The Gospel is therefore not 600+ rules. Rather, it is God in and with us--an unbroken, eternal relationship between Him and us. The false Gospel is anything that would separate us, including trying to deal with the problem of sin ourselves.
The answer to sin is repentance in Jesus' name, to live by his spiritual life and righteousness, avoiding anything that comes from our own human corruption. Going back to the Law of Moses would be such a corruption since sin has already been dealt with by Christ. There is no longer even a "temporary fix" for sin. The only fix is permanent and it is a permanent relationship with God through Christ. Going back to the Law to deal with sin ourselves is no longer an option given mankind by God. It is now a corrupt human process of trying to deal with sin ourselves.
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