The Gospel

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charity

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Slave = bondage not free will.
Hello @Dave L,

Bond-service, is service freely given, an enslavement of one's own choosing, out of love for the one submitted to. A bondage of one's own choosing, the submission of one's own free will into the master's service. The example being that of Christ Himself in Philippians 2,

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Dave L

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Hello @Dave L,

Bond-service, is service freely given, an enslavement of one's own choosing, out of love for the one submitted to. A bondage of one's own choosing, the submission of one's own free will into the master's service.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
You are suggesting people , even the worst sinners know the truth and are free because of it. Jesus said you shall (future) know the truth and it shall make you free.
 

Episkopos

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You are suggesting people , even the worst sinners know the truth and are free because of it. Jesus said you shall (future) know the truth and it shall make you free.


Why would Jesus say to His own disciples...you shall know the truth (in the future).....??? Did they not already know Jesus?
 
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Dave L

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Why would Jesus say to His own disciples...you shall know the truth (in the future).....??? Did they not already know Jesus?
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31–32) (KJV 1900)
 

charity

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Slave = bondage not free will.
'Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart
that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin,
ye became the servants of righteousness.
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:
for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;
even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.'

(Rom 6:16-19)

Hello again, @Dave L,

The word for 'servant' here is also 'doulos' = bondslave. As you can see free-will is in evidence here. It requires a voluntary 'yeidling'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Dave L

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'Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart
that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin,
ye became the servants of righteousness.
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:
for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;
even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.'

(Rom 6:16-19)

Hello again, @Dave L,

The word for 'servant' here is also 'doulos' = bondslave. As you can see free-will is in evidence here. It requires a voluntary 'yeidling'.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
People are free only to sin (serve Satan) apart from the New Birth. In which case they can discern spiritual truth and serve Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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This brings up the issue of how cults do what I call shopping cart theology and picks versus they believe say what they want said.

Not saying you do, but it is good example.

The context the chapter is Jews and law keeping.

You have to go to the all chapter and read the conclusion to see that it is saying under law all are hopelessly condemned and no one seeks God.

But under the gospel everyone can see God and everyone can be saved.

This brings up the issue of how cults do what I call shopping cart theology and picks versus they believe say what they want said.

Not saying you do, but it is good example.

The context the chapter is Jews and law keeping.

You have to go to the all chapter and read the conclusion to see that it is saying under law all are hopelessly condemned and no one seeks God.

But under the gospel everyone can see God and everyone can be saved.



Same with this claim.



It does not say that. It says all sin but we can escape sin through salvation in Jesus Christ.
You deny the scriptures every chance you get, with the bogus dispensational idea, or by rewording texts.rom8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Paul in romans 1-3 is showing all men everywhere are condemned. Jew and Gentile condemned and without excuse. In romans 8 Paul says they are not subject to Gods law/word, you suggest they are.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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People are free only to sin (serve Satan) apart from the New Birth. In which case they can discern spiritual truth and serve Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)
The word of God says the natural man cannot receive or welcome the word of God. Synergists say they can despite what the word of God declares.
 

charity

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Why would Jesus say to His own disciples...you shall know the truth (in the future).....??? Did they not already know Jesus?
'Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him,
.. "If ye continue in My Word,
.... then are ye My disciples indeed;
...... And ye shall know the truth,
........ and the truth shall make you free."

They answered Him,
.. "We be Abraham's seed,
.... and were never in bondage to any man:
...... how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?"

Jesus answered them,
.. " Verily, verily, I say unto you,

.... Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
...... And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
........ but the Son abideth ever.
.......... If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
........ I know that ye are Abraham's seed;
...... but ye seek to kill me, because My Word hath no place in you.'
.... I speak that which I have seen with My Father:
.. and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.'

(John 8:35 -38)

Hello @Episcopos,

The Words that our Lord spoke to these people did not abide in them, they may have believed that He was the Messiah, but His Words of life had not penetrated and found a place in their heart to the saving of the soul. The context shows that the Lord knew what was in their heart.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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People are free only to sin (serve Satan) apart from the New Birth. In which case they can discern spiritual truth and serve Christ.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)
Hello @Dave L.

In Romans chapter two, it is revealed that there are those, who though never having heard the gospel, have sought to please God, these will be judged according to their works, in that day when Christ will judge the secrets of men's hearts.

' ... ... the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: ... '

For there is no respect of persons with God.'
(Rom 2:5-11)

* Here we see that those outside of Christ are judged according to their works, and there will be those who will be granted life, who though never having heard the gospel, have sought by well doing for glory and honour: these are spoken of as having 'worked good'.

* So, I cannot agree that all outside of Christ necessarily serve Satan.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

H. Richard

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Belief is not work. It is acceptance.

Only the religious want belief to be a work. A guest that if a person wants to believe his/her car will start in the morning they are working, right?

To claim believing is a work is only putting up a smoke screen to cover the truth.

Every man/womon
God did the work for all to be children? Now it is up to man to choose either to accept and be born again of God from above, or to reject the gift? Then why all the scriptures about God choosing and electing so it is not by man’s will(choice) but by God’s will? If God’s will is that all men might be Children of God...then man’s will trumps over God’s will in some whom He paid the price for, reject Him and are therefore lost yet could have been children? Are you saying God chooses All in that He died for All, but All do not choose God? Is that what you are saying or have I misunderstood? Did He swallow up Hell and death in victory for all men or not?

Perhaps you are looking at it wrong. God has not elected individuals since He does not set one above another. But God has elected that those who believe what He says will be saved by His grace. After all it is Eve that rejected what God said and believed what Satan said and therefore the fall of man.
 
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Dave L

Guest
Hello @Dave L.

In Romans chapter two, it is revealed that there are those, who though never having heard the gospel, have sought to please God, these will be judged according to their works, in that day when Christ will judge the secrets of men's hearts.

' ... ... the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: ... '

For there is no respect of persons with God.'
(Rom 2:5-11)

* Here we see that those outside of Christ are judged according to their works, and there will be those who will be granted life, who though never having heard the gospel, have sought by well doing for glory and honour: these are spoken of as having 'worked good'.

* So, I cannot agree that all outside of Christ necessarily serve Satan.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Only the born again, whether under the gospel, or in remote lands never hearing the gospel, have salvation in Christ. “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” (Acts 10:34–35) (KJV 1900)

Only those atoned for by Christ will exhibit this fruit of the New Birth.
 

charity

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Only the religious want belief to be a work. A guest that if a person wants to believe his/her car will start in the morning they are working, right?

To claim believing is a work is only putting up a smoke screen to cover the truth.

Every man/womon


Perhaps you are looking at it wrong. God has not elected individuals since He does not set one above another. But God has elected that those who believe what He says will be saved by His grace. After all it is Eve that rejected what God said and believed what Satan said and therefore the fall of man.
'For whom He did foreknow,
.. He also did predestinate
.... to be conformed to the image of His Son,
...... that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
.. them He also called:
.... and whom He called,
...... them He also justified:
........ and whom He justified,
.......... them He also glorified.'

(Romans 8:29-30)

Yes @H.Richard,

And He by His foreknowledge knows in advance who will believe, so is able to pre-destinate them to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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Only the born again, whether under the gospel, or in remote lands never hearing the gospel, have salvation in Christ. “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” (Acts 10:34–35) (KJV 1900)

Only those atoned for by Christ will exhibit this fruit of the New Birth.
Hello @Dave L,

All have the potential of being atoned for by Christ, for the atonement was made for all men, without exception; but not all will receive it, for the Word of God will not be believed by all. Those referred to in Romans chapter two knew nothing of new birth, for if they had they would not be in the position of being judged according to their works in the day when God will judge the secrets of men's hearts: for, for them there would be no condemnation, they being covered by the righteousness of God in Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Dave L

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Hello @Dave L,

All have the potential of being atoned for by Christ, for the atonement was made for all men, without exception; but not all will receive it, for the Word of God will not be believed by all. Those referred to in Romans chapter two knew nothing of new birth, for if they had they would not be judged according to their works in the day when God will judge the secrets of men's hearts.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
This is not true. Jesus died only for the elect. If he died for all and all are not saved, he did not save anyone. He only made it possible for the self-righteous to save themselves by their own supposed goodness. He specifically told the pharisees he did not die for them in John 10;ff.
 

charity

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This is not true. Jesus died only for the elect. If he died for all and all are not saved, he did not save anyone. He only made it possible for the self-righteous to save themselves by their own supposed goodness. He specifically told the pharisees he did not die for them in John 10;ff.
Hello again, @Dave L,

I will let the Word of God itself be the Arbiter on this matter, for you will not be convinced by any words of mine. I do not know what verse in John 10 you are referring to, and cannot really understand your reasoning in this post to respond to it adequately. So I will leave you now, and go offline for a while.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Dave L

Guest
Hello again, @Dave L,

I will let the Word of God itself be the Arbiter on this matter, for you will not be convinced by any words of mine. I do not know what verse in John 10 you are referring to, and cannot really understand your reasoning in this post to respond to it adequately. So I will leave you now, and go offline for a while.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
You empty Christ's atonement of its value and discount his suffering if you make it conditioned on self-righteousness. Plus you rob God of his glory in salvation and lavish it on yourself because of some goodness in you that choose to accept his supposed terms.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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[QUOTE="H. Richard,

Perhaps you are looking at it wrong. God has not elected individuals since He does not set one above another. But God has elected that those who believe what He says will be saved by His grace. After all it is Eve that rejected what God said and believed what Satan said and therefore the fall of man.[/QUOTE]
This is not taught in scripture as no one believes in and of themselves.
 
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charity

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You empty Christ's atonement of its value and discount his suffering if you make it conditioned on self-righteousness. Plus you rob God of his glory in salvation and lavish it on yourself because of some goodness in you that choose to accept his supposed terms.
Hello @Dave L,

You have obviously not read my posts with any degree of attention, if you can assert these things of me.

I leave you in God's hands.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

justbyfaith

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Looking at the verse you quote from 2 Timothy (above), those taken captive are they who are in opposition to the truth. It is an intriguing little verse, especially the last words, 'taken captive by him at his will'. In the margin of my Bible it says that the pronouns 'him' and 'his' do not have the same reference: the 1st refers to the 'servant' and the 2nd to 'God', and the meaning of the passage is, that the devil stirs up those he has ensnared to oppose, lest God should give them repentance, and lest, having been taken captive by God's servant, they should escape the snare, to do the will of God.

"taken captive by the devil at the devil's will" is the proper interpretation.

and there will be those who will be granted life, who though never having heard the gospel,

No one is granted life who has not heard and received the gospel.
 
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