Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The confirmation of a week of days is the week of days of the 7th Trumpet after the Second Coming.
Jesus is on the earth when that week of days happens and the 7th Trumpet is sounding.
The Great Apostasy in the Church.
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Jesus is on the earth when that week of days happens and the 7th Trumpet is sounding.
Yes, but if they just read and followed Gods Word, you dont think they would go down the right path...
I dont think it has that anywhere in the text..
Revelation 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except in Revelation 13 Satan comes to earth after the 7th Trumpet already started to sound. The days of the sounding is mentioned in Revelation 10. So after 3 days of hearing the 7th Trumpet, the third woe is Satan coming to earth. Either the 7th Trumpet stops sounding 4 days later, or the 7th Trumpet stops sounding 42 months, and 4 days later, after Satan arrives.
The midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet is when God determines the direction the earth takes. The third woe, or an immediate winepress of God's wrath. The confirmation is to determine if any souls on earth will be redeemed. That would be those beheaded from that moment on. Only the beheaded are redeemed beyond that point. The rest will receive the mark and go through the winepress at Armageddon, when God gathers all humanity in one spot after those 42 months of AoD.
Revelation 10 declares time is up after the 7 Thunders. The 7th Trumpet sounding is that declaration. The 7th Trumpet is not the 3rd woe. Why is declaring Jesus King of all nations a woe? The third woe is in Revelation 12. Satan coming to earth is the 3rd woe.
Jesus has already been declared King and for 3 days that reality stands. The 3rd woe is Satan announced as the 8th kingdom. That is pointed out in Revelation 17.
Revelation 14 is the winepress of God's wrath without the 8th kingdom. Revelation 19 is the winepress of God's wrath with the 8th kingdom. But no one will know exactly how it all turns out until the midst of the week (of the 7th Trumpet) when the Atonement Covenant is confirmed.
Most people today seem to have it all figured out and think they know how it all will play out. No one can say they know when the Second Coming will happen, especially by declaring some time of AC needs to happen first. The mystery of all prophecy will not even be settled until the 7th Trumpet sounds and declares Jesus as the King of all nations on the earth. Only at that point will the Covenant be confirmed per Daniel 9:27, and certainly those 70 weeks are not finished until the 7th kingdom with Jesus as the Prince to come is in full force. The Day of the Lord is the reality of Daniel 9:24.
I know many want to rearrange the book and put it in the chronological order they feel is best. That is called forcing the Word of God to fit their theology and eschatology based on that theology.
I was not pointing out the text. I was pointing out the surrounding context. Those verses indicate the temple of earth is now 100% in union with the temple in heaven. Matthew 6:10
"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
Daniel 9:24 is God's will for the entire creation, not just a handful of people.
Not seeing anything you are talking about in there..
Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This chapter is the third woe attached to the 7th Trumpet, just like the first 2 woes were attached to the 5th and 6th Trumpets.
This 7 headed dragon in chapter 12 is explained in chapter 13, and again in chapter 17. The 6 heads refers to the kingdoms of Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greeks, Romans, the ten toes, and the 6th kingdom since the Reformation. The Reformation destroyed the image at the point of the ten toes.
5 are fallen, represented by Daniel 2. All in the past since the Reformation. We are in the 6th kingdom with the mortal wound.
No, Christ at the second coming is what destroys the image as the Reformation was not the end as we can clearly see..
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The church was the stone cut out. The church is the body of Christ on earth. The church kept growing on earth until it crushed the image at the end of the ten toes kingdom. The 5th kingdom ended at the Reformation.
The stone was the first coming. The stone is not the Second Coming. We are in the 6th kingdom of Revelation 17. Daniel did not cover a 6th kingdom at all. The image of Daniel 2 only covered 5 kingdoms. Daniel in all his prophecy never covered past that 5th kingdom. The ten toes are not the ten horns in Revelation. The ten horns are not even relevant until after the Second Coming.
The restored 6th kingdom, the head with a mortal wound cannot be restored until after the baptism of fire. 2 Peter 3 gives us the destruction of the Second Coming. All the works of earth will be burned up. Revelation 6 declares that all the mountains and islands (continents) will be moved out of their places a total shakeup from what we know today will happen, and the 6th kingdom cannot be healed until after this event. Satan will offer a restoration so humans will follow him.
Humans are not going to initiate a war on this scale like they tried twice a hundred years ago. God Himself is going to step in and reverse the effects of Noah's flood and there will no longer be a division between humanity due to natural boundaries.
That is why those 10 horns represent a kingdom but have no kingdom to rule over. They were alive at the Second Coming, but no new kingdoms have been solidified yet. Revelation 17:12-13
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."
The ten toes represent the 5th kingdom after Rome "fell apart" from the 5th century to the Reformation.
The 6th kingdom is not the church. The 6th Kingdom is humanity in opposition to the church that fills the whole earth. There has been no one world kingdom, hence the mortal wound. By the time this 6th kingdom is healed, it will be too late.
The ten horns would be on the head that represents Satan. The dragon, the beast out of the sea, and the scarlet beast all represent those past 5 kingdoms. But only the last 2 heads, the 6th kingdom, and Satan's mystery Babylon is relevant for today and the Second Coming. Satan is not just a 7 headed dragon. Those heads represent the historical relationship between these kingdoms and Israel. That is how Revelation 12 is written.
Revelation cannot represent the Preterist view. Rome, the 4th beast, still existed until the 4th century. Many have tried to force Revelation into a past historical format, by declaring individuals of the Roman Empire as the 7 heads. That cannot work. Israel was relative before Babylon itself. Not just the first century Judaism.
There have not been 3 sets of 7 world empires, that would equal 21 world governments. John is pointing out the same 6 kingdoms and their decline over the years since Daniel's time. It is the same beast in Revelation 12, 13, and 17. Just presenting human government at different times. Revelation 12 was the historical Israel before Christ was born, all the way to the 7th Trumpet sounding. Revelation 13 is after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 17 is only about the 7th head, after the 7th Trumpet, and the destruction of Satan's 42 months.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
Why "church-ianity" always wants to put the 70th week out into the far off future, is because:
A. they can't see in KJV Dan. 9:27 which "he" the 70th week is prophesying about,
B. How that which was "determined" in verse 24, was "poured [out] on the desolate in verse 27.
See Acts 10:45.
C. who it was that performed the "six works" that were "determined" in verse 24.
Counting the math of the 70 weeks is foolish and unnecessary, and does drive everyone stark raving mad, to find the "magic formula", when all the while it's staring everyone right in the face in verse 27.
Edit:
John 5
[39] Search the scriptures [ie Daniel] for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
But you don't quote any Church Father.
More anti-Catholic drivel. Lots of pagan religions predate Judaism and Christianity, but that doesn't prove the pagan influence fallacy, your pathetic bandwagon.
Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews. And Hislopites like Hobie.
Is Catholicism Pagan?
Catholic beliefs are not "borrowed" from earlier pagan cults. We clear away the confusion and give you some helpful hints on how to respond to this charge.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The "falling away/apostacy" MUST take place BEFORE the "man of sin is revealed" = according to ScriptureNO! That apostasy event has NOT happened yet today. It is ONLY for the time of the future "great tribulation" at the 'end' of this world.
That 2 Thess.2:4 verse about that "man of sin" is the SAME warning Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse about the coming pseudo-Christ that others will worship in place of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:23-26, which is about a 'singular' false-Messiah, and will claim to be of Judah). Those in Christ are not to fall into that trap at the end; it is specifically a trap God is going to use upon the unbelieving Jews, and for pruning of dead branches in Christ's Church.
Brethren in Christ, that 2 Thess.2 "man of sin" event will specifically happen when the following happens...
Matt 24:15-23
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
KJV
That "abomination of desolation" event is about the coming pseudo-Christ placing an IDOL abomination inside the future 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, in false worship. That is what the Rev.13 "image of the beast" is about for the 'end'. Rev.13 warns us that coming false one, there called the "another beast", will setup that "image of the beast" in worship, and those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed.
Those events above are what Paul was pointing to regarding that "man of sin" causing that 2 Thess.2:3 "falling away" (apostasy). It's about the coming pseudo-Christ being setup in false worship. That is what Paul's idea of the "strong delusion" is about.
That is still yet to happen today. So don't listen to preachers who try to use their failing Church member attendance rolls as a measure for that 2 Thess.2:3-4 apostasy.
Many in Christ today have started studying their Bible more, and doing 'house Churches', because they are starting to figure out how lot of Church system organizations have overtaken many written Bible doctrines in favor of their seminary traditions of men, just like what the blind Pharisees were doing in the days of Lord Jesus' 1st coming.
And you preachers out there that are complaining about lower Church attendance, quit pushing men's traditions, and instead teach The Word of God line upon line, chapter by chapter instead of your own word, and you will see your Church's attendance start to increase. And if it doesn't increase, at least the brethren that do attend and stay because they are hungry for a line upon line, chapter by chapter Bible teaching, then those will be the ones that are supposed... to be there. "Cease ye from man", God said (Isaiah 2:22).
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,
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Davy
Well-Known Member
No, your idea is actually from men's doctrine 'adding' to what Apostle Paul said.
Note that BOTH verses 3 & 4 go together in context... Men's doctrines instead try to separate the below context, teaching verse 3 by itself.
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
That "and" is a conjunction, as Greek kai...
NT:2532
kai (kahee); apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:
KJV - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Paul's Message there was about the revealing of the "man of sin" sitting in a Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the end, exalting himself in place of God, is what will cause the great falling away.
The matter is simple too, once one stops listening to men's theories and instead reads The Word of God. Jesus warned us about this very false one coming to Jerusalem per Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and He also warned us again through Apostle John in Revelation about the coming "another beast" of Rev.13. The 2 Thess.2 example is simply Apostle Paul's version of the same warning of the coming false-Messiah/Antichrist.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
lol my Brother,
Indeed they are connected by the 'and' for a specific reason.
BEFORE you have the antichrist(Head) you MUST FIRST have a 'Body' for it to be attached to!!!
Thus the Scripture Stands = "the falling away comes FIRST"
AND remember dear Brother this = Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
If you place the antichrist 'FIRST' then you change the Holy Scripture to conform to your likeness instead of you conforming to His Likeness!
Davy
Well-Known Member
But that's adding... to Scripture. The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is about a 'beast kingdom', NOT a person. The "seven heads" are... "seven mountains" according to Lord Jesus...
Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
KJV
2 Clues Lord Jesus gave with that in red. 1) the seven heads are 'mountains', so a mountain is NOT a literal 'head', the heads idea is used as just a symbol for the mountains, or actually powers over the earth.
The 2nd Clue, 2) is the symbolic "woman" sits upon those seven mountains. And at the beginning of Rev.17 what were we told that symbolic "woman" sits upon??
Rev 17:1
17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
KJV
What do those "waters" that great whore sits upon represent per Jesus?
Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
KJV
So you going to try and tell me those "seven mountains", and "waters" that represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" means an INDIVIDUAL ANTICHRIST PERSON??
No way, the 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is about a 'BEAST KINGDOM' having "ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns". It is pointing to a SYSTEM over the whole earth, and the above Rev.17 Scripture confirms that.
What you are doing is simply listening to a bunch of men's doctrines designed to get you off track from those simple Bible Scriptures of what Lord Jesus showed through His Apostle John.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Thank You Brother,
You just discovered the Scriptural evidence of "the falling away comes FIRST"
the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
KJV
What do those "waters" that great whore sits upon represent per Jesus?
Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
KJV
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well no, I did not.
Those "waters" also represent the "sea" of Revelation 13:1 about the 1st beast. The symbolic whore sits over those "waters".
Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV
The idea is the symbolic "woman", "great whore", of Rev.17, represents the CITY of JERUSALEM for the end in a state of IDOL WORSHIP. The Babylon Harlot idea originates from what God called the city of Jerusalem in a fallen state, per Ezekiel 16. I can tell you've never read that Ezekiel 16 chapter.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. 39But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly [m]fragile. 43As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
Davy
Well-Known Member
And??
The final beast piece is the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. But just as the feet of a human supports all the pieces above it, all those pieces of the beast statue are of heavier material than iron & clay. Iron and clay won't mix, so the feet symbolically are shown to be weak.
Thus when Christ (that "stone") smites the beast upon its feet, ALL... of the pieces of the beast come tumbling down together.
Thusly, that is pointing how ALL... the previous beast kingdoms of history will exist as part of the final beast kingdom upon earth at the very end. It is pointing to man's globalist "one world government" idea, the planned Utopia by Satan's workers here on earth today.
No, Christ is the stone cut without hands and at the second coming He resurrects the saints in the grave and with the living saints takes them all to heaven.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I never said Jesus was not the stone. The church in Christ destroyed the Daniel 2 human government at the ten toes, the Reformation.
We are in the 6th head, 6th kingdom time frame from the Reformation to the Second Coming.
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