The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[Hobie]

NO! That apostasy event has NOT happened yet today. It is ONLY for the time of the future "great tribulation" at the 'end' of this world.

That 2 Thess.2:4 verse about that "man of sin" is the SAME warning Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse about the coming pseudo-Christ that others will worship in place of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:23-26, which is about a 'singular' false-Messiah, and will claim to be of Judah). Those in Christ are not to fall into that trap at the end; it is specifically a trap God is going to use upon the unbelieving Jews, and for pruning of dead branches in Christ's Church.

Brethren in Christ, that 2 Thess.2 "man of sin" event will specifically happen when the following happens...

Matt 24:15-23
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
KJV

That "abomination of desolation" event is about the coming pseudo-Christ placing an IDOL abomination inside the future 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, in false worship. That is what the Rev.13 "image of the beast" is about for the 'end'. Rev.13 warns us that coming false one, there called the "another beast", will setup that "image of the beast" in worship, and those who refuse to bow to it are to be killed.

Those events above are what Paul was pointing to regarding that "man of sin" causing that 2 Thess.2:3 "falling away" (apostasy). It's about the coming pseudo-Christ being setup in false worship. That is what Paul's idea of the "strong delusion" is about.

That is still yet to happen today. So don't listen to preachers who try to use their failing Church member attendance rolls as a measure for that 2 Thess.2:3-4 apostasy.

Many in Christ today have started studying their Bible more, and doing 'house Churches', because they are starting to figure out how lot of Church system organizations have overtaken many written Bible doctrines in favor of their seminary traditions of men, just like what the blind Pharisees were doing in the days of Lord Jesus' 1st coming.

And you preachers out there that are complaining about lower Church attendance, quit pushing men's traditions, and instead teach The Word of God line upon line, chapter by chapter instead of your own word, and you will see your Church's attendance start to increase. And if it doesn't increase, at least the brethren that do attend and stay because they are hungry for a line upon line, chapter by chapter Bible teaching, then those will be the ones that are supposed... to be there. "Cease ye from man", God said (Isaiah 2:22).

If you dont see the tremendous and horrible things happening today, you dont have what the scripture says is 'eyes and ears' of what Christ says to the church in the last days..

Revelation 3:13-18
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[Hobie]

Those things are not what Apostle Paul's "falling away" is about. To push what you are saying as being the 'falling away' is to separate... the 2 Thessalonians 2:3 verse apart from the 4th verse, which I see Preterists wrongly doing all the time.

And by the way, I knew about the globalist plans for a "one world government" since the early 1970's, as it has been spoken of by globalists for over a century in their writings and speeches. U.S. President Woodrow Wilson's right-hand man at the White House, Col. Mandell House, even wrote a short novel after his globalist plans with Wilson failed to get through U.S. Congress with their attempt to get the U.S. on board with the League of Nations. (see the book Philip Drew: Administrator: A Story of Tommorow, 1925-1935).

You might also research 1940s-1950s ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist, where he listed 45 strategic points the Soviet Communists planned to use against the West. The LGBTQ movement was just one of them.

Thus I am amazed at how many of my Christian brethren are just now it seems, in just past couple of decades, have only STARTED to begin to WAKE UP, when folks like me have been paying attention for most our lives. Thus your telling ME to "pay attention" reveals how you are just now waking up to what's been going on for centuries. I can take these things what you claim is the 'falling away' back to at least 22 centuries, because it's about the "mystery of iniquity" that Paul mentioned, which goes back Biblical to Old Testament times! So it sounds like you're the one that needs to "pay attention" more.

If you look, you will see that the old Babylonian system that came through the Greek paganism got picked up by the Romans, so it never was the true church that Christ set up. But, it was so subtle that many Christians didnt wake up and see the implications till it had crept in.

 

[Hobie]

For those who look and see, history shows what happened in the church at Rome and spread through the empire. The Greeks when they conquered Persia, had picked up the Babylonian worship and you can see from history that went and finished Alexander the Great's project of restoring Bel’s (Baal) temple at Babylon and re-founded Nebo’s temple at Borsippa, and many pagan temples where restored as the Babylonian religion became dominant among the Greeks. The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of their idol was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Mesopotamian sun-god. History tells us..

"By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward. Under the Empire many of the conquered people were transported to Rome as slaves and took their religions directly with them.
The Chaldean astrology, of which the Syrian priests were enthusiastic disciples, had furnished them (the Romans) with the elements of a scientific theology (Cumont, Oriental Religions, p. 199). And the "Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian in the third century, proclaimed the sun-god as the official god of the Romans. This Sun-worship was the final form which Roman paganism assumed. In 274 A.D. the emperor Aurelian conferred on it official recognition, inspired by what he had seen at Palmyra, he founded a gorgeous temple in honour of Sol Invictus — the invincible Sun — served by priests who had precedence even over the members of the ancient Collegium pontificum; and in the following century, the Claudian emperors worshipped the almighty star (the sun) ... The invincible Sun raised to the supreme position in the divine hierarchy, peculiar protector of sovereigns and of the Empire, tends to absorb or subordinate to himself all other divinities (Cumont, Astrology and Religion, p. 133)."

Even the later Roman emperors, took up the Babylonian sun god and its worship spread among the Roman empire. So we see the connection to the ancient worship of the Babylonian sun god, and its true origin, and the church at Rome was at the center and the pagan system of worship was brought in and we see the change from Sabbath to Sunday which was slowly introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century, and it was not from the Apostles or scripture, but for another reason of pagan origin. It brought in a slew of the false beliefs that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders with new names to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines, and history lays it out.

 

[Hobie]

Now the 'tradition' the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasnt the tradition of the Apostles as we can see from the changes. But the pagan tradition from all the way from Babylon, and the corruption from the Gnostic sect which spread. Lets take a look at the College of Pontiffs or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.

So lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from, they just changed the names.

Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place. The bishop of Rome soon had no other bishop held at the same level, from the patriarch of Alexandria to the one in Jerusalem and he was pushing for more converts so allowing the pagan beliefs and ceremonies to come into the church.

 

[Hobie]

The thing is, this was not just a slight mistake or wrong turn in the leaders of the church or its worship but a deliberate corruption to form the antichrist entity that it is today. Its not in the future, but right before us, as we find that there are many sources that point out the origins of the apostasy and corruption that was brought in....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].
"in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy....

 

[Hobie]

...."In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

"The Church did everything it couldto stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

"We know that Mithraism was a state religion of Rome at the time that the Christian church was established there. Evidently tenants of Mithraism such as Sunday worship and eating the wafer in the mass were adopted into Christianity at that time" -Jim Arrabito "666 & the Mark"

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

"In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

"When the zealots of the primitave Christian Church sought to Christianize paganism, the pagan initiates retorted with a powerful effort to paganize Christianity. The Christians failed but the pagans succeeded. With the decline of paganism the initiated pagan hierophants transferred their base of operations to the new vehicle of primitive Christianity, adopting the symbols of the new cult to conceal those eternal verities which are ever the priceless possession of the wise." -The secret teachings of all ages, Manley P. Hall p. CLXXXV

"...The world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ." -The Great Controversy, p. 50

"The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.

Langdon tells us that Mary worship came from ancient Babylon where the virgin mother-goddess was worshiped under the name "Ishtar." Elsewhere in the Near East, the mother-goddess was called "Astarte, Ashtoreth, Persephone, Artemis, [Diana] of Ephesus, Venus, and Isis." This goddess, considered to be greater than any god, was called by these heathen the "virgin mother, merciful mother, Queen of Heaven, and my lady" [which is what "Madonna" means in Italian]. Langdon says she was often sculptured in mother-and-infant images, or as a "mater dolorom" [sorrowful mother] interceding for men with a wrathful god. And thus ancient paganism was brought into the churches and lives of Christians.--see S.H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition, pp. 12-34, 108-111, 341-344. Laing mentions several other corruptions by which the mother-goddess was worshiped by heathens, that Rome adopted into Christianity: holy water, votive offerings, elevation of sacred objects [lifting of the host], the priest's bells, the decking of images, processions, festivals, prayers for the dead, the worship of relics and the statues of saints.--see Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, 1931 edition, pp. 92-95, 123-131,238-241.

Two dominant elements brought into Christianity from paganism by Rome were Sun worship symbols and the religious practices of ancient Babylon] "The solar theology of the Chaldaeans [Babylonians], had decisive effect . . . [upon the] final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans when [the Roman emperor] Aurelian, the conqueror of Palmyra, had raised 'Sol Invictus' [the invincible sun-god] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire"--The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647. From Palmyra he transferred to the new sanctuary the images of Helios [the sun-god] and Bel, the malaise patron god of Babylon--see Cumont, The Oriental Religions In Roman Paganism, 1911 edition, pp. 114-115, 124.

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].

"The removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople in 330, left the Western Church, practically free from imperial power, to develop its own form of organization. The Bishop of Rome, in the seat of the Caesars, was now the greatest man in the West, and was soon [when the barbarians over-ran the empire] forced to become the political as well as the spiritual head."--A.C. Flick, The Rise of the Mediaval Church p. 168.

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Aryans left . . . [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the Emperor's disappearance . . . The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation; the empire has not perished, but has only undergone a transformation . . . It [the Catholic Church] is a political creation, and as imposing as a World-Empire, because [it is a continuation of] the Roman Empire. The Pope, who calls himself 'King' and 'Pontifex Maximus' [the title of the Roman Emperor in the time of Christ], is Caesar's successor."--Adolf Harnack, What is Christianity? 1963, pp. 269-270.

"Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of the barbarous hordes, the Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection, and asked him to rule them; and thus, . . . commenced the temporal sovereignty of the popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the vicar of Christ took up the scepter to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages."--American Catholic Quarterly Review, April, 1911.

[Speaking of the time, about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was crumbling to pieces:] "No, the [Catholic] Church will not descend into the tomb. It will survive the Empire . . . At length a second empire will arise, and of this empire the Pope will be the master--more then this, he will be the master of Europe. He will dictate his orders to kings who will obey them"--Andrea Lagarde, The Latin Church in the Middle Ages, 1915, p. vi.

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivles, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called to the source whence those rites have spring. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius. P. vii

It is the Beast of Revelation and Antichrist power which claims to be God on earth and fulfills all the prophecies concerning it in Gods Word...

Reply

 

[Hobie]

In Daniel we read that one of the characteristics of the Antichrist is that it would wear out the saints of the Most High:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25).
The Papacy has a long history of "wearing out" the saints of the Most High. Below is a timeline of the generally aggressive history of the Roman Catholic Church, but the most tragic one that concerns the Word of God is the persecution during the Middle Ages of anyone daring to oppose the Church. The Bible predicts that the saints of the Most High would be persecuted for 1260 years.

Historian J. A. Wylie said this:
It is idle in Rome to say, "I gave you the Bible, and therefore you must believe in me before you can believe in it." The facts...conclusively dispose of this claim. Rome did not give us the Bible, she did all in her power to keep it form us; she retained it under the seal of a dead language; and when others broke that seal, and threw open its pages to all, she stood over the book, and unsheathing her fiery sword, would permit none to read the message of life, save at the peril of eternal anathema" J.A. Wylie, History of Protestantism Volume 1 (Virginia: Heartland Publications, 2002): 58.

During these years of oppression in which the masses were kept in ignorance and the priest held sway over every aspect of life, here and there arose individuals willing to shine a light into the darkness. Christian author Dave Hunt tells us that because they rejected transubstantiation, "Christians were burned at the stake by Roman Catholics by the hundreds of thousands." Dave Hunt, A Cup of Trembling (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1995): 160. We find many instances in the historical record:

The Albigensian 'crusade' in southern France included Albigensian Christians and Catholics were slain. By the time the Roman Catholic armies finished their 'crusade,' almost the entire population of southern France (mostly Albigensian Christians) has been exterminated. During the six centuries of papal Inquisition that began in the 13th century, up to 50 million people were killed. Read what J. A. Wylie's The History of Protestantism has to say about the Crusades against the Abigenses

1540 -1570 Roman Catholic armies butcher at least 900,000 Waldensian Christians of all ages during this 30-year period.

1550 - 1560 Roman Catholic troops slaughter at least 250,000 Dutch Protestants via torture, hanging, and burning during this ten-year period.

1553 -1558 Roman Catholic Queen Mary I of England (aka 'bloody Mary') attempts to bring England back under the yoke of papal tyranny and during her reign, many good Christian men and woman are burned to death at the sake. Her victims include bishops, scholars, and other Protestant leaders.

1572 St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. French Roman Catholic soldiers begin killing Protestants in Paris on the night of August 24, 1572. The soldiers kill at least 10,000 Protestants during the first three days. At least 8000 more Protestants are killed as the slaughter spreads to the countryside.

1641 -1649 Eight years of Jesuit-instigated Roman Catholic butchery of Irish Protestants claims the lives of at least 100,000 Protestants.

1685 French Roman Catholic soldiers slaughter approximately 500,000 French Protestant Huguenots on the orders of Roman Catholic King Louis 14 of France. it just goes on and on... The Dark side of Catholicism

Secret History of the Roman Catholic Church

The true history of the Roman Catholic Church has been hidden from the masses today and many people do not know what happened.

www.end-times-prophecy.org

 

[Hobie]

The Waldensians, and many others were exterminated, in the persecution of the Cathar of Southern Europe, northern Italy, it is estimated one million victims of the . [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.183]

The Spanish Inquisition killed untold numbers and the Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. Of course we cant leave out John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, who was burned at the stake in 1415.

In the 15th century we find the Church lauching a persecution against Hussites, with thousands slain. In 1538 pope Paul III declared a crusade against England who had left its domination and all English made as slaves of Church, but England being a island made that a bit difficult to implement. In the 1568, the Spanish Inquisition tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands and thousands were slain. In1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 28-31]

In the Catholic 17th century 30 years' war against the Protestants, at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.31-32] And its recorded in the Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany, roughly 30,000Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller. [D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992, 191. ]

And of course we all know what happened to the leaders who led the Reformation which is well documented.....
'...Hus was arrested and thrown into the dungeon of the Dominican monastery. In December a formal investigation against Hus began, but Hus was not allowed an advocate for his defense. Transferred to the castle of the Archbishop of Konstanz, Hus was kept for 73 days, separated from his friends, chained day and night, poorly fed, and ill.

On June 5, 1415, his trial began, and Hus was moved to a Franciscan monastery. He declared himself willing to recant if his errors should be proven to him from the Bible, but otherwise defended his reformist protests against the Church.

The condemnation took place on July 6, 1415, in the presence of the assembly of the Council in the Cathedral. After the High Mass and Liturgy, Hus was led into the church. He protested that even at this hour he did not wish anything, but to be convinced from Scripture. He fell upon his knees and asked God to forgive all his enemies.

At the place of execution, he knelt down, spread out his hands, and prayed aloud. The executioner undressed him, tied his hands behind his back, and bound his neck with a chain to a stake around which wood and straw had been piled up so that it covered him to the neck. At the last moment Hus refused to recant and thus save his own life.

“God is my witness that the things charged against me I never preached,” Hus said. “In the same truth of the Gospel which I have written, taught, and preached, drawing upon the sayings and positions of the holy doctors, I am ready to die today.”

Hus’s ashes were thrown into the Rhine River.' Today in history: Jan Hus burned at the stake 600 years ago.

 

[Hobie]

And the Antichrist entity documented the purpose themselves in the Lateran IV calling for the extermination of these faithful believers..

CANON 3​

Text. We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues....But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith..

CANON 5​

Summary. The council approves the existing order of the patriarchal sees and affirm, three of their privileges: their bishops may confer the pallium and may have the cross borne before them, and appeals may be taken to them.
Text. Renewing the ancient privileges of the patriarchal sees, we decree with the approval of the holy and ecumenical council, that after the Roman Church, which by the will of God holds over all others pre-eminence of ordinary power as the mother and mistress of all the faithful, that of Constantinople shall hold first place, that of Alexandria second, that of Antioch third, and that of Jerusalem fourth, the dignity proper to each to be observed; so that after their bishops have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the distinguishing mark of the plenitude of the pontifical office, and have taken the oath of fidelity and obedience to him, they may also lawfully bestow the pallium upon their suffragans, receiving from them the canonical profession of faith for themselves, and for the Roman Church the pledge of obedience. They may have the standard of the cross borne before them everywhere, except in the city of Rome and wherever the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of Apostolic dignity is present. In all provinces subject to their jurisdiction appeals may be taken to them when necessary, saving the appeals directed to the Apostolic See, which must be humbly respected.

CANON 7​

Summary No custom or appeal shall hinder prelates from correcting abuses and reforming the morals of their subjects. If the chapter neglects to correct the excesses of the canons, it shall devolve upon the bishop to do so. Prelates shall not use this statute as means of pecuniary gain.
Text. By an irrefragable decree we ordain that prelates make a prudent and earnest effort to correct the excesses and reform the morals of their subjects, especially of the clergy, lest their blood be demanded at their hands. But that they may perform unhindered the duty of correction and reform, we decree that no custom or apeal shall stand in the way of their efforts, unless they shall have exceeded the form to be observed in such cases.... Let the prelates of the churches, therefore, be diligently on their guard that they do not convert this salutary decree into a means of personal profit or other objectionable conduct, but let them enforce it earnestly and faithfully if they wish to escape canonical punishment, for in this matter the Apostolic See, on the authority of the Lord, will be most vigilant.

Here is clear that the church at Rome, in the Pontiff, takes on the Antichrist entity character, saying it has what is basically that which is of God to persecute and take over the church in all aspects and regions, something which is not give in the Bible. But the Antichrist power which the Protestant reformers identified as the beast of Revelation and the little horn power of Daniel that was foretold to do these things.

Revelation 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This Antichrist power, history shows, came in the form of the Papacy, and this power came out of Rome and continued its politico-religious influence for the time foretold and even after Napoleon took it down with his general Berthier, it healed of its wound as foretold, and has come back and is here today.

 

[Hobie]

So the apostasy continues unabated and hiding in plain sight, so no need to wait for a future Anti Christ when clearly he is here already in the place foretold, camouflaged with a 'Christian' cloak among the saints...

 

[Earburner]

Apostasy means to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth and falling away from the truth we are given in Gods Word. We have been warned that this would happen in the church, and it did happen.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If there is indeed an apostasy occurring in the church, how would we know it unless we first examined the Bible closely and then compared it. But what if the church took away and forbid Gods Word as happened. So how was this able to get in and bring such great apostasy into what Christ and the Apostles brought up with such care. It was through subtle and secret changes, done with evil discipline to hide the apostasy that they brought in slowly, so few would notice. So what did they use, well lets look and see what even they who brought the evil, boast and history shows on how they did it.

If you look into church history you will find what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from non-Christians and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the faith. The true origin of these 'mysteries' came from the oral teachings from Greek and Hellenistic sources which formed the basis of this secret oral tradition, which in the 4th century came to be called the disciplina arcani. It appears that it contained liturgical details and certain other ancient customs which remain a part of Christianity, for example, the doctrine of Transubstantiation is thought to have been a part of this. So lets look below the surface and see what this "Discipline" actually is from several sources.

Disciplina Arcani: A Latin phrase, meaning discipline of the secret and referring to a practice of the early Church, especially during the Roman persecutions, to: (1) conceal Christian truths from those who, it was feared, would misinterpret, ridicule and profane the teachings, and persecute Christians for believing them; (2) instruct catechumens in a gradual manner, withholding the teaching of certain doctrines until the catechumens proved themselves of good faith and sufficient understanding.

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/CatholicAl ... fault.aspx, Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Almanac: Glossary D-M, 'Disciplina Arcani':

This term signifies in general that which is unknowable, or valuable knowledge that is kept secret. In pagan antiquity the word mystery was used to designate certain esoteric doctrines, such as Pythagoreanism, or certain ceremonies that were performed in private or whose meaning was known only to the initiated, e.g., the Eleusinian rites, Phallic (penis) worship. In the language of the early Christians the mysteries were those religious teachings that were carefully guarded from the knowledge of the profane (see DISCIPLINE OF THE SECRET).

..theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Discipline of the Secret (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc. 66 and 67). They are not mentioned in the Scripture. But they are of great authority and significance. They are indispensable for the preservation of right faith. They are effective means of witness and communication. According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

[Cf. Hermann Dörries, De Spiritu Sancto, Der Beitrag des Basilius zum Abschluss des trinitarischen Dogmas (Göttingen, 1956); J. A. Jungmann, S.J., Die Stellung Christi im liturgischen Gebet, 2. Auflage (Münster i/W, 1962), ss. 155 ff., 163 ff.; Dom David Amand, Lascese monastique de Saint Basile, Editions de Maredsous (1949), pp. 75-85. The footnotes in the critical editions of the treatise De Spiritu S. by C. F. H. Johnson (Oxford, 1892) and by Benoit Pruche, O.P. (in the Sources Chrètiennes, Paris, 1945) are highly instructive and helpful. On disciplina arcani see O. Perler, s.v. Arkandisciplin, in Reallexikon für Antike and Christentum, Bd. I (Stuttgart, 1950), ss. 671-676,. Joachim Jeremias, Die Abendmahlsworte Jesu (Göttingen, 1949), ss. 59 ff., 78 ff., contended that disciplina arcani could be detected already in the formation of the text of the Gospels, and actually existed also in Judaism; cf. the sharp criticism of this thesis by R. P. C. Hanson, Tradition in the Early Church (London, 1962), pp. 27 ss].

So is this a Christian belief or direction from the Apostles that should be in the church, it appears not. Does it have any scriptural support or sanction, it appears to fail on that point. So why did it come into the church. To bring in apostasy or the falling away, and pagan 'traditions' that only was known to a select group of 'initiates', and kept from the faithful who would have seen the evil in it and stopped the apostasy from coming into the church.

Briefly explained, apostasy is: 2 Tim. 3:1-7.
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[No Pre-TB]

That is still yet to happen today. So don't listen to preachers who try to use their failing Church member attendance rolls as a measure for that 2 Thess.2:3-4 apostasy.

At least no one yet has said the apostasy is the rapture. That one always makes me laugh. “The rapture (gathering together to Christ) won’t happen till the rapture (apostasy) happens first”.

 

[Earburner]

At least no one yet has said the apostasy is the rapture. That one always makes me laugh. “The rapture (gathering together to Christ) won’t happen till the rapture (apostasy) happens first”.

The "rapture theory" is not a delusion, it's simply misplaced by the "pre-tribbers".

That view is a form of escapism, whereby one believes that they will not suffer the wrath of Satan's persecution, of which is NOT to be confused with the wrath of God, in His appearing through Jesus' visible and Glorious manifestation in flaming fire from heaven.

You can read all about that simultaneous event of the saints being "raptured" and the destruction of ALL unsaved wicked, all being accomplished in the SAME DAY.
KJV Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The "rapture theory" is not a delusion, it's simply misplaced by the "pre-tribbers".

I agree. I should also make known, I’ve never said the rapture was a theory or a delusion. I only comment on how some distort the meaning of apostasy to mean something it doesn’t.

 

[Hobie]

Briefly explained, apostasy is: 3Tim. 3:1-7.
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Very true and these are the attributes we are talking about....

 

[ewq1938]

The "rapture theory" is not a delusion, it's simply misplaced by the "pre-tribbers".

That view is a form of escapism, whereby one believes that they will not suffer the wrath of Satan's persecution, of which is NOT to be confused with the wrath of God, in His appearing through Jesus' visible and Glorious manifestation in flaming fire from heaven.

You can read all about that simultaneous event of the saints being "raptured" and the destruction of ALL unsaved wicked, all being accomplished in the SAME DAY.
KJV Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

Not the same day. Some destroyed at the second coming, the rest over a thousand years later. The difference is because many were not in the military at Armageddon so the civilians enter into the Millennium. Those that join satan's army after he is released from prison will be destroyed at Jerusalem.

 

[Earburner]

Not the same day. Some destroyed at the second coming, the rest over a thousand years later. The difference is because many were not in the military at Armageddon so the civilians enter into the Millennium. Those that join satan's army after he is released from prison will be destroyed at Jerusalem.

What does KJV Luke 17:29 say?
Please compare Jesus' words: "same day" with the time Lot left Sodom, and then 24 hours later, when Abraham arose from sleep and saw the smoke of what was left of the city of Sodom after burning.
Gen. 19:15-30
Day 1:
[15] And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. (To Zoar they traveled all night).
Day 2:
[23] The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

Day 2:
[27] And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
[28] And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

[29] And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Luke 17
29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Those who are involved with the ways of "Church-ianity" need to wake up, and face up to God's prophetic reality!!

 

[Timtofly]

Not the same day. Some destroyed at the second coming, the rest over a thousand years later. The difference is because many were not in the military at Armageddon so the civilians enter into the Millennium. Those that join satan's army after he is released from prison will be destroyed at Jerusalem.

No one with the mark of the beast can live in the Millennium. Do you think God removes the mark, and places their name back into the Lamb's book of Life? Why would God reward the wicked and allow them to keep living?

 

[ewq1938]

What does KJV Luke 17:29 say?
Please compare Jesus' words: "same day" with the time Lot left Sodom, and then 24 hours later, when Abraham arose from sleep and saw the smoke of what was left of the city of Sodom after burning.
Gen. 19:15-30
Day 1:
[15] And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. (To Zoar they traveled all night).
Day 2:
[23] The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.

Day 2:
[27] And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
[28] And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

[29] And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Luke 17
29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Those who are involved with the ways of "Church-ianity" need to wake up, and face up to God's prophetic reality!!

The example of Sodom etc was a localized destruction not global. You are disproving your own theory. Would you care to offer anything else that will show your beliefs to be wrong? People need to give up the teachings of "Church-ianity" and accept what the bible says.

 

[Earburner]

The example of Sodom etc was a localized destruction not global. You are disproving your own theory. Would you care to offer anything else that will show your beliefs to be wrong? People need to give up the teachings of "Church-ianity" and accept what the bible says.

Sure, I will give the details of scripture by the Holy Spirit, and not through the wisdom of men's doctrines, such as "all have an eternal soul", all are the children of God", "Pre-millennialism".
2 Thes. 1:7-10
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10] WHEN
he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Q. WHEN  is WHEN??
A. In THAT Day of 24 hours.

1. How long will it take for Jesus to have all the saints resurrected into His likeness?
Will it be:
a. Within 24 hours?
Or
b. A thousand years?

2. How long will it take for Jesus to destroy all the wicked unsaved?
Will it be:
a. Within 24 hours?
Or
b. A thousand years?
The answer to both 1&2 is "a": within 24
hours.
2 Peter 3:10-13
[10] But the DAY of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.