The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[Timtofly]

Sure, I will give the details of scripture by the Holy Spirit, and not through the wisdom of men's doctrines, such as "all have an eternal soul", all are the children of God", "Pre-millennialism".
2 Thes. 1:7-10
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10] WHEN
he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Q. WHEN  is WHEN??
A. In THAT Day of 24 hours.

1. How long will it take for Jesus to have all the saints resurrected into His likeness?
Will it be:
a. Within 24 hours?
Or
b. A thousand years?

2. How long will it take for Jesus to destroy all the wicked unsaved?
Will it be:
a. Within 24 hours?
Or
b. A thousand years?
The answer to both 1&2 is "a": within 24
hours.
2 Peter 3:10-13
[10] But the DAY of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

How long did it take from the baptism of Jesus to the Cross in that day? 24 hours?

 

[ewq1938]

Sure, I will give the details of scripture by the Holy Spirit, and not through the wisdom of men's doctrines, such as "all have an eternal soul", all are the children of God", "Pre-millennialism".

That's not Premill. You should know that but you don't. You also avoided any comment on that verb being future tense, just as I predicted because Amill cannot address it. You also ignored the fact that Lot/Sodom is NOT an example of global slaughter of the wicked. It proves there is no global slaughter at the second coming. Until you confront these things I see no reason to address anything you use to avoid doing that.

 

[Earburner]

That's not Premill. You should know that but you don't. You also avoided any comment on that verb being future tense, just as I predicted because Amill cannot address it. You also ignored the fact that Lot/Sodom is NOT an example of global slaughter of the wicked. It proves there is no global slaughter at the second coming. Until you confront these things I see no reason to address anything you use to avoid doing that.

That is how Premil understands it, as you showed in post #36: "Not the same day. Some destroyed at the second coming, the rest over a thousand years later".

The Premil belief system causes one to deny KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.
Anyone and everyone who IS NOT "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, DOES NOT and CANNOT ever obey the gospel of Christ, nor do they know God. And to make matters worse for them "in that Day", they ALL will have taken the "mark of the beast". 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Peter 3:1
But that's okay, for Premil thinking says that they (who took the mark) shall have a "second chance" to hear the gospel message in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
I think you do know the scriptures showing that such a situation is never going to happen. Are you willing to deny that too?

 

[Earburner]

How long did it take from the baptism of Jesus to the Cross in that day? 24 hours?

Such a question deserves a better answer!
Jesus ministry was for three years, and John the baptist was for six months
Jesus Himself, was the second of the two anointed ones, being a joint ministry, for 1260 days, aka "the two witnesses".

John the Baptist arose from the grave AFTER Jesus resurrection, as did many others (not all) who had died in faith of "the Promise to come", while living under the OC.
Mat. 27:52. They are the 144k.

 

[ewq1938]

That is how Premil understands it,

No. You have taken two separate topics and blended them together.

as you showed in post #36- "Not the same day. Some destroyed at the second coming, the rest over a thousand years later".

The Premil belief system causes one to deny KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

Again you completely avoid commenting on the fact that the killing at the second coming is separate from the utter destruction of the LOF as per the verb tense. It is Amill that is denying things in those verses not Premill.

Anyone and everyone who IS NOT "born again" of God's Holy Spirit, DOES NOT and CANNOT ever obey the gospel of Christ, nor do they know God.

So?

And to make matters worse for them "in that Day", they ALL will have taken the "mark of the beast". 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Peter 3:1

No, not all take the mark. The raptured saints don't.

But that's okay, for Premil thinking says that they (who took the mark) shall have a "second chance" to hear the gospel message in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Here you are being hypocritical because in the Amill view, marked people are in the Millennium also. It's the same thing in the Premill view. In both views, it is believed that there is a reason these people are living in the Millennium. Amill is happy to have unsaved, wicked people in their Millennium but absolutely forbids the possibility for Premill. Either some can be saved, or they can't and God just wants a period of time where satan is not present on the Earth. Neither Amill nor Premill understands why God allows this.

I think you do know the scriptures showing that such a situation is never going to happen. Are you willing to deny that too?

Scripture proves that unsaved people are alive after the second coming. So far you don't acknowledge the Greek verb tenses involved in this discussion so mentioning more from Rev 19 isn't going to affect anything.

 

[ewq1938]

Such a question deserves a better answer!
Jesus ministry was for three years, and John the baptist was for six months
Jesus Himself, was the second of the two anointed ones, being a joint ministry, for 1260 days, aka "the two witnesses".

John the Baptist arose from the grave AFTER Jesus resurrection, as did many others (not all) who had died in faith of "the Promise to come", while living under the OC.
Mat. 27:52. They are the 144k.

The two prophets of Rev 11 die at the same time and resurrect at the same time. Your theory that Jesus and John are somehow "the two witnesses" doesn't match scripture. Nor does Jesus dying a second time makes any sense when he resurrected in an immortal body so he cannot die again.

 

[Timtofly]

Such a question deserves a better answer!
Jesus ministry was for three years, and John the baptist was for six months
Jesus Himself, was the second of the two anointed ones, being a joint ministry, for 1260 days, aka "the two witnesses".

John the Baptist arose from the grave AFTER Jesus resurrection, as did many others (not all) who had died in faith of "the Promise to come", while living under the OC.
Mat. 27:52. They are the 144k.

Then the Second Coming is going to take more than a day. The first coming was not the Second Coming. The first coming was the first half of the 70th week. The Second Coming is the last half of the 70th week. One coming was as Messiah. The Second Coming will be as Prince. Jesus is both the Messiah and the Prince to come. Gabriel pointed out that the 70th week was going to be split, in the point the Prince "to come" was at a different time.

 

[Earburner]

Again you completely avoid commenting on the fact that the killing at the second coming is separate from the utter destruction of the LOF as per the verb tense. It is Amill that is denying things in those verses not Premill.

You don't understand Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-7, 10, 12.

The eternal flaming fire of Jesus' presence, is going to ignite the whole earth into a lake of fiery, molten lava, on a global scale.

 

[ewq1938]

You don't understand Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-7, 10, 12.

The eternal flaming fire of Jesus' presence, is going to ignite the whole earth into a lake of fiery, molten lava, on a global scale.

No, it won't. He returns in a flash of lightning. He doesn't burn the whole world or burn people to death. What you are claiming is not from the bible at all.

Mat_24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Earburner]

(Ref. Post 45) No. You have taken two separate topics and blended them together.

EB's reply: I only quoted what you said of when the unsaved suffer God's vengeance. You show it to be that some suffer his vengeance upon Jesus' return, and then the rest are strung out over a thousand years.

Again you completely avoid commenting on the fact that the killing at the second coming is separate from the utter destruction of the LOF as per the verb tense. It is Amill that is denying things in those verses not Premill.

Jesus' coming in [Eternal] flaming fire is the origin of all the world becoming a LAKE of fire. "Our God is a consuming fire".

So?

So what are you referencing by "So?"

No, not all take the mark. The raptured saints don't.

What rapture?
That's not a point to me made. All born again Christians will not take the mark, however the religious Christians will.

Here you are being hypocritical because in the Amill view, marked people are in the Millennium also. It's the same thing in the Premill view. In both views, it is believed that there is a reason these people are living in the Millennium. Amill is happy to have unsaved, wicked people in their Millennium but absolutely forbids the possibility for Premill. Either some can be saved, or they can't and God just wants a period of time where satan is not present on the Earth. Neither Amill nor Premill understands why God allows this.

The Amill view is that "a thousand years" is symbolic of an undisclosed amount time that is given for the present Age of God's Grace.

Scripture proves that unsaved people are alive after the second coming. So far you don't acknowledge the Greek verb tenses involved in this discussion so mentioning more from Rev 19 isn't going to affect anything.

Luke 17:28-30 and 2 Thes. 1:7-10 says NO!
The Premil view NEEDS to have "survivors" after the Glorious return of Jesus, otherwise there would be no need for a KoG on earth for an additional 1000 years.

Immortal people, having eternal life don't NEED this old earth, OR another one like it.
For the past 2023 years, so far, JESUS HASN'T NEEDED ANY PLANET EARTH AT ALL.

 

[ewq1938]

I have requested that the formatt of this forum include the post #s that people partially quote from. .....I'm still waiting!!

All anyone has to do is click on the curly ARROW by a person's name to be brought to the original post so post numbers are not needed.

 

[ewq1938]

EB's reply: I only quoted what you said of when the unsaved suffer God's vengeance. You show it to be that some suffer his vengeance upon Jesus' return, and then the rest are strung out over a thousand years.

Not "strung out". No wrath or violence happens during the thousand years.

Jesus' coming in [Eternal] flaming fire is the origin of all the world becoming a LAKE of fire.

You are adding eternal to the scripture. The lightning is not eternal.

The Premil view NEEDS to have "survivors" after the Glorious return of Jesus, otherwise there would be no need for a KoG on earth for an additional 1000 years.

Rev 2 and 19 speak of people who will be ruled over after the second coming. It's part of the foundation of Premill along with other passages.

Amill has to completely ignore and avoid passages like those because they prove Amill to be false.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Immortal people, having eternal life don't NEED this old earth, OR another one like it.

Human logic doesn't matter. The scriptures are what matters and they promise a future rule of people after the Coming.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible. org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

 

[Earburner]

All anyone has to do is click on the curly ARROW by a person's name to be brought to the original post so post numbers are not needed.

Thanks for making that point about the Arrow after a person's name. I am sure that I have accidently used it, but I didn't make the connection that it referred me back to the person's post number for context.
(I have deleted my suggestion about post numbers being added with partial quotes).

 

[Earburner]

Not "strung out". No wrath or violence happens during the thousand years.




You are adding eternal to the scripture. The lightning is not eternal.



Rev 2 and 19 speak of people who will be ruled over after the second coming. It's part of the foundation of Premill along with other passages.

Amill has to completely ignore and avoid passages like those because they prove Amill to be false.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.





Human logic doesn't matter. The scriptures are what matters and they promise a future rule of people after the Coming.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible. org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

Though I strongly disagree, I am well aware of how and why Premil takes the view about the Lord and the Saints reigning on earth for an additional 1000 years.
However, you keep describing that "our God who is a consuming fire", shall return in flashes of lightning only, and therefore His act of vengeance is only partial??
Some of the unsaved will be destroyed immediately, but towards all others, who also neglected to "appear before the Judgment seat of Christ", .....are spared ??

So then, according to the Premil concept, God is partial in His judgments.
Unfortunately the Premil concept is violating scripture.
James 3
[17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Again, for the truthful answer of WHAT shall take place upon the Lord's SUDDEN visible return, as does lightning flash SUDDENLY in the sky, we read in 2 Thes. 1
[8] In flaming [firery] fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Where does it say that "some" will be destroyed immediately, but the "majority" (who also didn't "know" or "obey") shall enter into(?) the KoG, during the supposed 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?
Don't you know that in the Day of Christ's visible appearance from heaven, the Age of God's Grace will have ended? Have you not read and understood the parable of the Ten Virgins and that of the Wheat and the Tares?

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for making that point about the Arrow after a person's name. I am sure that I have accidently used it, but I didn't make the connection that it referred me back to the person's post number for context.
(I have deleted my suggestion about post numbers being added with partial quotes).

Feel free to contact me if you have any other issues or questions on forums like this, or computer type questions in general.

 

[ewq1938]

However, you keep describing that "our God who is a consuming fire", shall return in flashes of lightning only, and therefore His act of vengeance is only partial??

God is a Trinity. Sometimes when scripture refers to "God" it is one of those three. IMO God the Father is a consuming fire, which is further shown in Rev 20 when he reigns fire down at the battle of Jerusalem. The scriptures regarding Christ's Coming speak of flashing fire as a flash of lightning as far as the speed of his return.

Some of the unsaved will be destroyed immediately, but towards all others, who also neglected to "appear before the Judgment seat of Christ", .....are spared ??

Christ returns in wrath and kills many people, mainly those who are in the military of the beast. He does not kill the civilians who are the majority. Agree or not, both Rev 2 and 19 speak of people who will be ruled over after the second coming. These are those civilians.

So then, according to the Premil concept, God is partial in His judgments.

No, that is a false conclusion, and a very weak one at that.

Again, for the truthful answer of WHAT shall take place upon the Lord's SUDDEN visible return, as does lightning flash SUDDENLY in the sky, we read in 2 Thes. 1
[8] In flaming [firery] fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Where does it say that "some" will be destroyed immediately, but the "majority" (who also didn't "know" or "obey") shall enter into(?) the KoG, during the supposed 1000 year reign of Christ on earth?

The verse doesn't speak of anyone being destroyed. You are using eisegesis to force that into the verse. Vengeance is not only killing. All will suffer vengeance and wrath, but only some will be killed while the rest will be ruled over as per Rev 2 and 19 (which no Amill addresses BTW)

Don't you know that in the Day of Christ's visible appearance from heaven, the Age of God's Grace will have ended? Have you not read and understood the parable of the Ten Virgins and that of the Wheat and the Tares?

I understand them as well a I understand that 2 Thes. 1:8 does not use "destroy". You are the one misunderstanding as I have shown.

 

[Earburner]

God is a Trinity. Sometimes when scripture refers to "God" it is one of those three. IMO God the Father is a consuming fire, which is further shown in Rev 20 when he reigns fire down at the battle of Jerusalem. The scriptures regarding Christ's Coming speak of flashing fire as a flash of lightning as far as the speed of his return.

You are not understanding that after God the Father had forsaken (left/abandoned) Jesus' mortal body on the cross, upon His resurrection, the Father rejoined Jesus in his newness of Eternal Life, having Immortality.

Therefore, being Himself "the firstborn from the dead", Jesus was the first creation of God's "NEW creatures", and God the Father will NEVER again forsake Him. Which is to say, without a doubt, that God the Father (a consuming fire) WILL BE WITHIN Jesus, when Jesus returns in all is visible Glory, IN FLAMING [FIERY] FIRE taking vengeance on them [ALL] that know not God and [ALL them] that do not obey the gospel of Christ, in THAT Day, when Jesus is revealed from heaven, with his mighty angels.

Christ returns in wrath and kills many people, mainly those who are in the military of the beast. He does not kill the civilians who are the majority. Agree or not, both Rev 2 and 19 speak of people who will be ruled over after the second coming. These are those civilians.

Only military people are destroyed?
I disagree! God the Father, being a CONSUMING fire through Jesus, shall kill all people, that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of Jesus.

No, that is a false conclusion, and a very weak one at that.

The verse doesn't speak of anyone being destroyed. You are using eisegesis to force that into the verse. Vengeance is not only killing. All will suffer vengeance and wrath, but only some will be killed while the rest will be ruled over as per Rev 2 and 19 (which no Amill addresses BTW)

To be "consumed" by the "consuming fire" of God the Father Himself, who is within Jesus, IS to be permanently destroyed!

I understand them as well a I understand that 2 Thes. 1:8 does not use "destroy". You are the one misunderstanding as I have shown.

You might want to take up those parables again, for new insights of what the Holy Spirit does teach, and not that of what the wisdom of men try to feed us.

 

[ewq1938]

You are not understanding that after God the Father had forsaken (left/abandoned) Jesus' mortal body on the cross

No, he did not. You learned that from "Church-ianity".

Therefore, being Himself "the firstborn from the dead", Jesus was the first creation of God's "NEW creatures", and God the Father will NEVER again forsake Him. Which is to say, without a doubt, that God the Father (a consuming fire) WILL BE WITHIN Jesus, when Jesus returns in all is visible Glory, IN FLAMING [FIERY] FIRE taking vengeance on them [ALL] that know not God and [ALL them] that do not obey the gospel of Christ, in THAT Day, when Jesus is revealed from heaven, with his mighty angels.

Jesus is never depicted using fire as a weapon. He only returns IN a flash of lightning which harms no one.

Only military people are destroyed?

Yes, at Armageddon only a military/army is killed.

I disagree! God the Father, being a CONSUMING fire through Jesus, shall kill all people, that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of Jesus.

That doesn't come from the bible though. Go ahead, try to find it. I already showed how one scripture you used was misused and did not say anything about destroying.

To be "consumed" by the "consuming fire" of God the Father Himself, who is within Jesus, IS to be permanently destroyed!

None of that happens at the second coming. Only after the GWTJ are people killed by fire and they are all resurrected so they can be killed a second time.

You might want to take up those parables again, for new insights of what the Holy Spirit does teach, and not that of what the wisdom of men try to feed us.

I'm in the middle of rejecting the teachings of men in this very post.

 

[Earburner]

No, he did not. You learned that from "Church-ianity".

Premil has not grasped or understood the anguish of Jesus' twofold torment within Himself, when He prayed in the garden of Gethemane. For the very first time, within His eternity of being with His Father, He knew that He was going to be forsaken/abandoned by the Father.
You KNOW the words that He cried out to His Father, while He was on the cross.

Jesus is never depicted using fire as a weapon. He only returns IN a flash of lightning which harms no one.

Correct!!! God Himself, being a consuming fire, Who is Himself forever dwelling within Jesus, IS NOT a weapon.
However, we all do know that sinful mortal flesh, as we all are, cannot stand in the literal Presence of God Himself, lest we DIE, and are consumed by the Eternal Fire of His very own Being.

God Himself cannot help that of what He Himself is, and as a result He has warned all that no one who literally sees God Himself, through mortal eyes, shall live!!
That IS WHY, all we who are "born again" of His Spirit, shall be "changed" in the twinkling of an eye, into the Immortal likeness of Jesus.

Yes, at Armageddon only a military/army is killed.

Sorry, I strongly disagree, as my previous comment reveals it.

That doesn't come from the bible though. Go ahead, try to find it. I already showed how one scripture you used was misused and did not say anything about destroying.

Indeed it does come from the words of the Bible, but through the teaching of God's Holy Spirit, and not that of the wisdom of men.
I do know by Whose Power our faith should stand!! 1 Cor. 2:5

None of that happens at the second coming. Only after the GWTJ are people killed by fire and they are all resurrected so they can be killed a second time.

Unfortunately, all Premil believers have been terribly misguided. The "Judgment seat of Christ" is the precursor to the Day of Jesus' fiery and Glorious return from Heaven, of which shall be the GWTJ.

For all who do not "appear" before Christ now, during their lifetime, they will be found "naked and unclothed" of having not the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, and shall be burned up alive on their feet, just as Zech. 14:12 reveals it. Rom. 8:9.

ALL the unsaved in the world shall be immediately at war (at enmity), when they see the HEAVENLY Jerusalem (Gal. 4:25-26; Rom. 8:7; James 4:4) coming from out of heaven. WE who are alive and remain, will have been "changed", and gathered to MEET Jesus and them IN THE clouds, in the AIR, and NOT on this planet earth. Rev. 19:14-21.
[12] And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against [Heavenly] Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The Day of Jesus' Glorious return, in flaming fire IS the GWTJ.

I'm in the middle of rejecting the teachings of men in this very post.

Becareful, you just might be rejecting the very truth of God, so that you can hang onto the wisdom of men. 1 Cor. 2:5

 

[ewq1938]

The Day of Jesus' Glorious return, in flaming fire IS the GWTJ.

No, he returns well over a thousand years before the GWTJ. The GWTJ is not fire anyways. The fire is AFTER the GWTJ is over, where judgment is set and then afterwards punishment takes place.