The Great Apostasy

[CoreIssue]

This was spoken by St. Thomas Aquinas, and I tend to agree with what he say's.

"I answer that, Christ's was a glorified body in His Resurrection, and this is evident from three reasons. First of all, because His Resurrection was the exemplar and the cause of ours, as is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:43. But in the resurrection the saints will have glorified bodies, as is written in the same place: "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory." Hence, since the cause is mightier than the effect, and the exemplar than the exemplate; much more glorious, then, was the body of Christ in His Resurrection. Secondly, because He merited the glory of His Resurrection by the lowliness of His Passion. Hence He said (John 12:27): "Now is My soul troubled," which refers to the Passion; and later He adds: "Father, glorify Thy name," whereby He asks for the glory of the Resurrection. Thirdly, because as stated above (Question 34, Article 4), Christ's soul was glorified from the instant of His conception by perfect fruition of the Godhead. But, as stated above (14, 1, ad 2), it was owing to the Divine economy that the glory did not pass from His soul to His body, in order that by the Passion He might accomplish the mystery of our redemption. Consequently, when this mystery of Christ's Passion and death was finished, straightway the soul communicated its glory to the risen body in the Resurrection; and so that body was made glorious.

[summa theologica part 3 question 54 article 3 ]( SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The quality of Christ rising again (Tertia Pars, Q. 54))

One good, convincing point St Thomas makes is that in no way could one consider Jesus' body given to corruption after His resurrection. He did as He chose. He came and went as He pleased. He appeared in the manner which He desired."
Was Jesus' resurrected body the same as his glorified body that he now has in heaven?

Christ was not resurrected in a glorified body.

When he appeared before some of the apostles he was dirty, bloodied etc. and told them not to touch him because he had not ascended to the father yet to make his offering.

His crucified body was the offering

Once offered he was then glorified and then came back to the earth before ascending to make a place for us in his father's house in heaven.

His glorified body was not immediately recognizable because it was perfect.

 

[Nancy]

Christ was not resurrected in a glorified body.

When he appeared before some of the apostles he was dirty, bloodied etc. and told them not to touch him because he had not ascended to the father yet to make his offering.

His crucified body was the offering

Once offered he was then glorified and then came back to the earth before ascending to make a place for us in his father's house in heaven.

His glorified body was not immediately recognizable because it was perfect.

Then how did He enter the upper room if the doors were bolted shut? Did He not ascend to heaven and sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat before coming back to earth for 40 days? I always thought that once He was raised it was in His glorified body. I never believed that He was in His regular human body after he arose. Ha, who knows, maybe resurrection bodies have the ability to appear in different ways, and can do other things "natural" bodies can’t do?
I will not say that I KNOW anything about this FOR DEAD CERTAIN...I am and always will be learning.
BTW-where does it say that Jesus was bloodied and dirtied???

 

[CoreIssue]

Then how did He enter the upper room if the doors were bolted shut? Did He not ascend to heaven and sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat before coming back to earth for 40 days? I always thought that once He was raised it was in His glorified body. I never believed that He was in His regular human body after he arose. Ha, who knows, maybe resurrection bodies have the ability to appear in different ways, and can do other things "natural" bodies can’t do?
I will not say that I KNOW anything about this FOR DEAD CERTAIN...I am and always will be learning.
BTW-where does it say that Jesus was bloodied and dirtied???

He entered the upper room after returning from heaven and was thus glorified.

Yes he offered his blood to the father.

Remember, only the second Adam, a mortar man, could pay the sin price.

At the resurrection they all rise in their human bodies enjoying the living saints who are in their human bodies. Then they ascend and gain their glorified bodies in heaven.

Glorified bodies, I believe, will be able to do a lot of amazing things. Such as walk through walls, maybe fly or teleport.

John 20:15 New International Version (NIV)

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

Ever work in the garden? You get dirty.

And to be the blood sacrifice there has to be blood. Cut the throat of a lamb and there's lots of blood.

 

[ScottA]

This was spoken by St. Thomas Aquinas, and I tend to agree with what he say's.

"I answer that, Christ's was a glorified body in His Resurrection, and this is evident from three reasons. First of all, because His Resurrection was the exemplar and the cause of ours, as is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:43. But in the resurrection the saints will have glorified bodies, as is written in the same place: "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory." Hence, since the cause is mightier than the effect, and the exemplar than the exemplate; much more glorious, then, was the body of Christ in His Resurrection. Secondly, because He merited the glory of His Resurrection by the lowliness of His Passion. Hence He said (John 12:27): "Now is My soul troubled," which refers to the Passion; and later He adds: "Father, glorify Thy name," whereby He asks for the glory of the Resurrection. Thirdly, because as stated above (Question 34, Article 4), Christ's soul was glorified from the instant of His conception by perfect fruition of the Godhead. But, as stated above (14, 1, ad 2), it was owing to the Divine economy that the glory did not pass from His soul to His body, in order that by the Passion He might accomplish the mystery of our redemption. Consequently, when this mystery of Christ's Passion and death was finished, straightway the soul communicated its glory to the risen body in the Resurrection; and so that body was made glorious.

[summa theologica part 3 question 54 article 3 ]( SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The quality of Christ rising again (Tertia Pars, Q. 54))

One good, convincing point St Thomas makes is that in no way could one consider Jesus' body given to corruption after His resurrection. He did as He chose. He came and went as He pleased. He appeared in the manner which He desired."
Was Jesus' resurrected body the same as his glorified body that he now has in heaven?

So, after Jesus' critique of the seven churches named in the first century, being somewhat against 5 out of the 7, you are impressed, when He was not?

Thomas Aquinas makes his first mistake in the first couple sentences! Paul not only said "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory", he also said, "It is not that body."

But you both mistake the power of God to do miracles, as something it is not. Let's all walk on water then, turn water into wine, etc...for surely that is all that it's about - the miracle sets the precedent, and that is what we too will do!

Sorry...No, that is not how things work.

On the contrary, what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. The one is death and dies, and the other is Life...and that body of flesh is not "glorified", but returns to the dust...and the spirit to God whom gave it.

Have you not read these things? Or do you just prefer the teachings of men and their speculations of the Spirit, but do not know the truth?

 

[ScottA]

So the Bible is the teachings of men when it disagrees with you but the teachings of God when it agrees.

Very Gnostic of you.

If you are going to lecture me about the bible, you might at least pick something that is actually in the bible. "Glorified body" is not.

A just what would a name-caller like yourself call someone who does otherwise as you have...a G-not-there-stic?

 

[farouk]

If you are going to lecture me about the bible, you might at least pick something that is actually in the bible. "Glorified body" is not.

A just what would a name-caller like yourself call someone who does otherwise as you have...a G-not-there-stic?

Philippians 3.21?

 

[ScottA]

Philippians 3.21?

"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."

Good point.

The "glorious body" of Christ is not a "glorified body" as men teach who glory in the flesh.

The "glorious body" of Christ, as Paul pointed out, is not that body. 1 Corinthians 15:37 On the contrary, the "glorious body" of Christ is "born of the spirit of God."

 

[farouk]

"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."

Good point.

The "glorious body" of Christ is not a "glorified body" as men teach who glory in the flesh.

The "glorious body" of Christ, as Paul pointed out, is not that body. 1 Corinthians 15:37 On the contrary, the "glorious body" of Christ is "born of the spirit of God."

One needs to remember the power of the resurrection, which was physical.

 

[amadeus]

One needs to remember the power of the resurrection, which was physical.

Is that really what are to look to? Every man of flesh was born to his natural mother as a spiritually dead person. We have all been dead. We walked around as if we were alive and usually acted as if we were alive. That is not Life. Life is what Jesus brought because men did not have it. Men were dead. What was it Jesus said on this point?

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:6

 

[farouk]

Is that really what are to look to? Every man of flesh was born to his natural mother as a spiritually dead person. We have all been dead. We walked around as if we were alive and usually acted as if we were alive. That is not Life. Life is what Jesus brought because men did not have it. Men were dead. What was it Jesus said on this point?

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:6

What I meant was that the Resurrection was indeed bodily.

 

[amadeus]

What I meant was that the Resurrection was indeed bodily.

So was the raising of Lazarus, but he still had to be buried again, did he not? Are we missing the whole picture? Let us wait and hear what our friend @ScottA would add here to fill in the blanks.

 

[farouk]

So was the raising of Lazarus, but he still had to buried again, did he not? Are we missing the whole picture? Let us wait and hear what our friend @ScottA would add here to fill in the blanks.

I'm not sure I followed the whole discussion...

 

[101G]

I'm going to pop some popcorn and watch these responses. I can't believe some of the things being posted here in this discussion.

but as the proverb states,
Prov 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

so I give do diligent to all, before I make any reply.

 

[amadeus]

oh ya, sorry, i thought the phrase would do, um, sinners from a young age or something like that, but even your ref will do; all have fallen short certainly implies a prior state of 'unfallen?' Babies cannot sin, and anyone who cannot determine right from wrong cannot sin, this is even est'd in law?

I have at times seen it as a plus or minus thing similar perhaps to a temperature gauge but more directly related to what the scripture and we call sin. All of babies start at zero from natural birth. As they develop their survival mechanisms at some point become lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life, which makes them switch from working to survive to sin. This is the time some have named an age of accountability. It would likely differ from person to person. No one but God could probably accurately pinpoint it.

With this movement as natural or carnal babies become aware they purposely begin to move in their selfishness below zero. How low they sink likely depends on many things.

When God sent Jesus, He sent a man perhaps also starting at zero but a man/baby with some pluses that no one else had at the beginning of their carnal lives: The Word and/or the Spirit [or Holy Spirit]. With these pluses as Jesus in his awareness grew He began to move above zero. He would have been the only man of flesh to possibly have done that from day one of his carnal existence or from the his day of accountability [if he had one?].

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

By the time anyone else arrived at his first Holy Ghost experience, or is first repentance, or his first "I am saved" experience, he had probably already dropped quite a bit below zero. As the baby/toddler/child develops habits [e.g. don't touch an open flame bare handed] some of his habits lead him to commit sin.

Perhaps this is where the state of the fallen for each of us begins... with that point we start to do things we believe to be wrong anyway so as to please ourselves. That first acknowledgement and repentant action by a person should or could bring him to zero but that is the bare bones of a baby nature. While we are at zero we are cute and loveable to a lot of people, but aren't we also ultimately dead in the eyes of God? To have Life in the eyes of God perhaps we need to have really climbed up the plus a bit. The question is, do we? Herein comes the need to eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Jesus: Proper and regular nourishment, spiritually.

Why would it be more difficult for us to grow into the plus zone as we should than it was for Jesus? What did we have that he never had? How about a history of sin and habits in place that when pursued led us back into sin again?

 

[amadeus]

We are warned in Galatians about denominationalism. The following of the doctrines of one man or group. No thinking for yourself.

Be good little boys and girls, read this doctrinal book and sign a membership form saying you will follow it and defend it without question.

The fruit of that is hollowness and indoctrination.

Young people have questions that are not been answered by churches.

When I was 10 I had tons of questions. While I had a good church they discouraged questions thinking they could lead to problems.

Dr. Dick Dick St. Marie from the Emmaus Bible college would come and preach sometimes. When he saw what's going on he told me to keep questioning, digging and being hungry. And told them they were wrong what they were doing.

The church is long gone. But I am still hungry.

The Bible refers to the churches of today as being tombs full of cobwebs.

That is why with rare exception the strongest Christians belong to small nondenominational churches if any church at all.

This is truly the time of the apostasy. More and more churches are going liberal because liberals are the most outspoken.

When you lose the youth you lose the future.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

 

[amadeus]

I'm not sure I followed the whole discussion...

I am not sure it is finished yet. Of course I am talking about God's part in the discussion.

 

[ScottA]

One needs to remember the power of the resurrection, which was physical.

The resurrection is a demon-stration of Christ's power over death.
But it is His ascension that is the power to give life.
They are different.
One is of the world (a manifestation/revelation), the other is of the kingdom.
One is of the flesh, and one is of the spirit: The flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it.
Very different indeed.

 

[farouk]

The resurrection is a demon-stration of Christ's power over death.
But it is His ascension that is the power to give life.
They are different.
One is of the world (a manifestation/revelation), the other is of the kingdom.
One is of the flesh, and one is of the spirit: The flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it.
Very different indeed.

It was indeed a bodily, physical resurrection.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you are going to lecture me about the bible, you might at least pick something that is actually in the bible. "Glorified body" is not.

A just what would a name-caller like yourself call someone who does otherwise as you have...a G-not-there-stic?

Romans 8.

 

[amadeus]

The word is defined as: "to behold, look upon, view attentively, contemplate."

However, and not to be taken lightly, that part of their comment was prefaced with "Why are you gazing...?" It does not stand to reason that if what they had "seen" would actually tell them anything, that the angels would have questioned them for doing it. I would suggest that their question makes what they had seen, a moot point, and that the answer lies rather in their comment of "like manner." Which, then, Jesus being the likeness of the Father whom is spirit...does not indicate a return in any other likeness, such as that of a man. In other words, Jesus came the first time in the likeness of a man, but His return would not be of that likeness, but of the likeness which He had become by being the First born of the spirit of God.

But the caution here, as it was with Lot, is not to look back.

And what is it a man sees with his natural/carnal eyes, the eyes of the flesh? If those are the only eyes he has or uses, is he not blind willing to follow a blind leader into a ditch?