The Great Apostasy

[Nancy]

So, after Jesus' critique of the seven churches named in the first century, being somewhat against 5 out of the 7, you are impressed, when He was not?

Thomas Aquinas makes his first mistake in the first couple sentences! Paul not only said "It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory", he also said, "It is not that body."

But you both mistake the power of God to do miracles, as something it is not. Let's all walk on water then, turn water into wine, etc...for surely that is all that it's about - the miracle sets the precedent, and that is what we too will do!

Sorry...No, that is not how things work.

On the contrary, what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. The one is death and dies, and the other is Life...and that body of flesh is not "glorified", but returns to the dust...and the spirit to God whom gave it.

Have you not read these things? Or do you just prefer the teachings of men and their speculations of the Spirit, but do not know the truth?

"So, after Jesus' critique of the seven churches named in the first century, being somewhat against 5 out of the 7, you are impressed, when He was not?
I'm not sure what you are trying to get across here? What do the 7 Churches have to do with Christ being raised in a glorious body?

"It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory", he also said "It is not that body."
1 Cor. 15:44 "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
I believe once we die, our Spirits will be with the Lord, to be joined with our resurrected bodies on the day of judgement. When Jesus rose, He still and always DID have the Spirit so, He did not need to be joined to His Spirit. I would not be surprised if Jesus will ALWAYS have the wounds our sins had caused.

"But you both mistake the power of God to do miracles, as something it is not. Let's all walk on water then, turn water into wine, etc...for surely that is all that it's about - the miracle sets the precedent, and that is what we too will do!
Again, not at all understanding what you are saying here, much less what it has to do with Jesus and His Glorified body

"On the contrary, what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. The one is death and dies, and the other is Life...and that body of flesh is not "glorified", but returns to the dust...and the spirit to God whom gave it.
IMHO is that our BODIES will be RESURRECTED to be joined with our spirits on judgement day??

Have you not read these things? Or do you just prefer the teachings of men and their speculations of the Spirit, but do not know the truth?"
Sure, I consider other "men's" interpretations yet, it is The Holy Spirit that ultimately guides the Christian. There are several teachers that I admire and respect. Does NOT mean that I agree with every single thing ANY man says. You are SO certain that I am NOT clothed in Christ that, it is difficult for me to receive from you anything that goes against what the Spirit has thus far shown me.
God Bless

 

[ScottA]

It was indeed a bodily, physical resurrection.

And yet the significance of His resurrection, has nothing to do His followers whose bodies will return to the dust and their spirit to God who gave it. It simply showed that Christ had attained power over death, a manifestation of something that does not go beyond the world, but a parable of things on high.

 

[ScottA]

Romans 8.

Yes, confirmation: Sin is condemned in the flesh. Which is not to say, nor does it, that the flesh then can indeed inherit the kingdom of heaven, against the rest of scripture that says it cannot.

 

[ScottA]

And what is it a man sees with his natural/carnal eyes, the eyes of the flesh? If those are the only eyes he has or uses, is he not blind willing to follow a blind leader into a ditch?

We know that the things of the spirit cannot be seen unless they are revealed. But in the world, they are not what is, but rather a mere image. For even Christ said of Himself, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

So, yes, the flesh sees the things of the flesh, and the spirit the things of the spirit.

 

[ScottA]

"So, after Jesus' critique of the seven churches named in the first century, being somewhat against 5 out of the 7, you are impressed, when He was not?
I'm not sure what you are trying to get across here? What do the 7 Churches have to do with Christ being raised in a glorious body?

"It is sown in dishonor, it shall rise in glory", he also said "It is not that body."
1 Cor. 15:44 "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
I believe once we die, our Spirits will be with the Lord, to be joined with our resurrected bodies on the day of judgement. When Jesus rose, He still and always DID have the Spirit so, He did not need to be joined to His Spirit. I would not be surprised if Jesus will ALWAYS have the wounds our sins had caused.

That is the teachings of men. But by the gospel of His own words, if He comes into us, He does not do so bodily, but in spirit...which is Christ "as He is", not flesh and blood, but spirit. If we follow Him, this is our fate also. But the man of flesh will see that as less, even though God being perfect, is only spirit.

"But you both mistake the power of God to do miracles, as something it is not. Let's all walk on water then, turn water into wine, etc...for surely that is all that it's about - the miracle sets the precedent, and that is what we too will do!
Again, not at all understanding what you are saying here, much less what it has to do with Jesus and His Glorified body

It is not what I am saying, but what you are advocating. I was mocking the idea that the miracles of Christ, including His own resurrection, were anything more - because we should know better, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

"On the contrary, what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. The one is death and dies, and the other is Life...and that body of flesh is not "glorified", but returns to the dust...and the spirit to God whom gave it.
IMHO is that our BODIES will be RESURRECTED to be joined with our spirits on judgement day??

That is not biblical - flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Have you not read these things? Or do you just prefer the teachings of men and their speculations of the Spirit, but do not know the truth?"
Sure, I consider other "men's" interpretations yet, it is The Holy Spirit that ultimately guides the Christian. There are several teachers that I admire and respect. Does NOT mean that I agree with every single thing ANY man says. You are SO certain that I am NOT clothed in Christ that, it is difficult for me to receive from you anything that goes against what the Spirit has thus far shown me.
God Bless

Yet I have to keep repeating what is written, and you do not hear it...but quote the teachings of men.

 

[CoreIssue]

The resurrection is a demon-stration of Christ's power over death.
But it is His ascension that is the power to give life.
They are different.
One is of the world (a manifestation/revelation), the other is of the kingdom.
One is of the flesh, and one is of the spirit: The flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it.
Very different indeed.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New International Version (NIV)
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:19-26 New International Version (NIV)
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”a]">[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?

And yet the significance of His resurrection, has nothing to do His followers whose bodies will return to the dust and their spirit to God who gave it. It simply showed that Christ had attained power over death, a manifestation of something that does not go beyond the world, but a parable of things on high.

Bodies of the dead go to the grave. At the resurrection they are reassembled in our spirits returned to them.

Then in heaven their glorified.

So yes we have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem, but they are no longer our earthly bodies. They are cleansed and changed.

 

[Nancy]

That is the teachings of men. But by the gospel of His own words, if He comes into us, He does not do so bodily, but in spirit...which is Christ "as He is", not flesh and blood, but spirit. If we follow Him, this is our fate also. But the man of flesh will see that as less, even though God being perfect, is only spirit.
It is not what I am saying, but what you are advocating. I was mocking the idea that the miracles of Christ, including His own resurrection, were anything more - because we should know better, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That is not biblical - flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Yet I have to keep repeating what is written, and you do not hear it...but quote the teachings of men.

So, if I were to quote you, would that not ALSO be the teachings of men?
Romans 10:14
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”.

All the preachers I have met have been men. Fallible, human men. Are we not to check the scriptures like the Bareans?? Just because YOU understand something one way does NOT mean that everybody else does. If and when God decides to open my eyes to see something different, this is where I have to stay.

 

[brakelite]

I've noticed that younger generations have far less engagement with the churches I've attended recently. I look around and see the pews packed with older folks, but youth seem to be a rare sight. Is this a sign of the times? In a few more decades, churches are foreseeably set to lose a sizable percentage of attendees if younger generations don't engage and pick up where our parents and grandparents left off.

Are we living in the time of great apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ?

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


Or am I wrong? Discuss if you please

A visiting preacher came to our church last Sabbath to give the lesson. For those of you who don't understand or aren't familiar with the way our churches run their services, most go like this....9.30 or 10. am a short welcome and a song, prayer, then everyone present, young and old, divide into separate Bible study groups we call Sabbath School. In our church where the membership runs around 100 or so, and attendance about the same, we have two adult classes, a youth class, and two children's classes depending on age. The youth range from around 14 to 25. Last Sabbath we had about 80 present at church, around 20 short of the usual because of end of year commitments to family and holidays etc. The visiting pastor made an interesting observation. He popped into the youth class and counted 20 young people present. That is 25% , or one quarter of the full number present in the congregation.
My son-in-law is the youth teacher, and he is also principal of the school college. He does not present lessons that are 'popular' or as politicians do, pleasing to the ear. He teaches the Bible. No tricks...no bells or whistles or tricks. Just straight out good Bible lessons. And the young people love it. And they keep coming back. They don't have to. The main service doesn't start unitl 11;30. That is a full hour Bible study before the main service, which also lasts about an hour. We have no revolving door in our neck of the woods.

 

[amadeus]

So, if I were to quote you, would that not ALSO be the teachings of men?
Romans 10:14
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”.

All the preachers I have met have been men. Fallible, human men. Are we not to check the scriptures like the Bareans?? Just because YOU understand something one way does NOT mean that everybody else does. If and when God decides to open my eyes to see something different, this is where I have to stay.

Indeed! Balaam had really been in touch with God, but perhaps the most important words God spoke to him were through a donkey. Probably that donkey never spoke the Word of God again.

Fallible prophets falter and stumble and sometimes speak from their own minds instead of from God. We may need to listen, but we must also be able to discern rightly by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nancy]

Indeed! Balaam had really been in touch with God, but perhaps the most important words God spoke to him were through a donkey. Probably that donkey never spoke the Word of God again.

Fallible prophets falter and stumble and sometimes speak from their own minds instead of from God. We may need to listen, but we must also be able to discern rightly by the Holy Spirit.

Amen Mr. John! I love that story, see how God loves His animals ♥ Balaam was told by the angel didn't kill him was because of the donkey.

 

[amadeus]

Amen Mr. John! I love that story, see how God loves His animals ♥ Balaam was told by the angel didn't kill him was because of the donkey.

Sometimes people cannot see the forest for the trees. This was the spiritual blindness of Balaam who apparently did see and hear some things from God, but missed for him the most important message of all. I greatly miss my own animals. They taught me many things about God and yet they never spoke to me in human voices.

 

[Nancy]

Sometimes people cannot see the forest for the trees. This was the spiritual blindness of Balaam who apparently did see and hear some things from God, but missed for him the most important message of all. I greatly miss my own animals. They taught me many things about God and yet they never spoke to me in human voices.

"They taught me many things about God and yet they never spoke to me in human voices."
Same here! When I take my dogs to the park, it is like they are thanking God for every blade of grass, twig, tree, sky (yes, my schnauzers DO look up into the sky ♥) ... it's like they are worshiping Him naturally.

 

[amadeus]

"They taught me many things about God and yet they never spoke to me in human voices."
Same here! When I take my dogs to the park, it is like they are thanking God for every blade of grass, twig, tree, sky (yes, my schnauzers DO look up into the sky ♥) ... it's like they are worshiping Him naturally.

Amen! I guess if I put my mind to it I could write a book about what those supposedly "dumb" animals did right without really giving it a thought while people giving it many thoughts still missed the mark.

 

[Nancy]

Amen! I guess if I put my mind to it I could write a book about what those supposedly "dumb" animals did right without really giving it a thought while people giving it many thoughts still missed the mark.

Well, if you do, I would love to read it! Those "dumb" animals know who their true provider is, IMHO ♥

 

[ScottA]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 New International Version (NIV)
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:19-26 New International Version (NIV)
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”a]">[a]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?


Bodies of the dead go to the grave. At the resurrection they are reassembled in our spirits returned to them.

Then in heaven their glorified.

So yes we have physical bodies in the New Jerusalem, but they are no longer our earthly bodies. They are cleansed and changed.

Perhaps it is the NIV translation that has you confused. But even at that, it does not say what your are claiming...at all. You are adding things that aren't there.

 

[ScottA]

So, if I were to quote you, would that not ALSO be the teachings of men?
Romans 10:14
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”.

All the preachers I have met have been men. Fallible, human men. Are we not to check the scriptures like the Bareans?? Just because YOU understand something one way does NOT mean that everybody else does. If and when God decides to open my eyes to see something different, this is where I have to stay.

It does not help that you search the scriptures to find a passage that seems to contradict the one I quoted. It does not contradict, nor can you or your so called preachers reconcile them. So, no, you are not weighing my word against other men's words that are not in accord with the scriptures, but weighing God against God, and agreeing with those who have done the same.

If you cannot reconcile both and all scriptures, you have no defense. On the contrary, God knows, and I have no need to defend what I have reconciled scripture to scripture.

 

[Episkopos]

Indeed! Balaam had really been in touch with God, but perhaps the most important words God spoke to him were through a donkey. Probably that donkey never spoke the Word of God again.

Fallible prophets falter and stumble and sometimes speak from their own minds instead of from God. We may need to listen, but we must also be able to discern rightly by the Holy Spirit.

We are not told specifically that Balaam started a speaking ministry to warn others by "taking them for a ride." This has not stopped many other "donkeys" from starting their own ministries after they perceived that God also used them once.

 

[amadeus]

We are not told specifically that Balaam started a speaking ministry to warn others by "taking them for a ride." This has not stopped many other "donkeys" from starting their own ministries after they perceived that God also used them once.

Yes, we read of the different beasts in scripture which really are men. Today among the many beasts that men manifest one of the worst may these donkeys of which you speak. Perhaps for some it would better to actually be a carnal beast of flesh, a beast of burden, walking on four legs than to be what they are...?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, we read of the different beasts in scripture which really are men. Today among the many beasts that men manifest one of the worst may these donkeys of which you speak. Perhaps for some it would better to actually be a carnal beast of flesh, a beast of burden, walking on four legs than to be what they are...?

I have this theory which I call..."the mule theory"...and that is that God allows people to have bibles and to get it wrong and promote lies about it...but still to preserve the bible itself so that it can be passed on (carried) to others who will understand it. If only the people who understood the bible had them and sought to preserve them...there would be a danger that the word would be stamped out by simply persecuting those who followed God and His ways. But the very fact that so many get the bible wrong and use it for their own benefit...in fact preserves the word for others at a later time. Why else would purveyors of lies still want the bible to be preserved? So then the Lord allows the bible to be misunderstood, it's message subverted, manipulated and perverted by the devil and people...but not to destroy the bible itself.

It is the genius of God that uses the sins and errors of men to still do His will...in spite of us and our ways. God's ways are indeed higher than those of men.

 

[CoreIssue]

Perhaps it is the NIV translation that has you confused. But even at that, it does not say what your are claiming...at all. You are adding things that aren't there.

I am not confused and the NIV is extremely clear.

Your claims are the problem.