The Great Crowd

[Aunty Jane]

It's unfortunate you would consider outing me.....but that tells its own story!

I assume you meant “ignoring” you and to do so would only be to avoid conversations like this.
I have nothing against you personally QT, but your responses frustrate the socks off me.

I have not spoken to you in riddles AJ however much you perceive them to be such.
Perhaps you perceive Jesus as speaking in riddles and being cryptic also?.....I suspect that is the case!

You are not Jesus....When he spoke in illustrations, some people didn’t understand and he never ran after them to explain......but his apostles sometimes asked him what he meant, and Jesus did so...in plain English. His parable of the “wheat and the weeds” was one of those times.

I ask you for plain English and I get more cryptic responses. I simply do not understand the way you think. It is definitely a communication problem and I don’t think that will change.

If you hear me speaking in riddles and being cryptic it has to do with your hearing (paradigm) ie, the inability to join the dots.

QT...plain English needs no dots.

You might recall the religious folk drew the same conclusions about the things Jesus said or check out John 8:43 if self honesty is of interest to you.

You seem to concentrate a lot on self honesty....I try to be honest, and I’m sure you do too, but perhaps self deception is also a common human trait. Sometimes hearing about yourself from others is confronting.....because of self perception....that’s a lot of “self” problems, and it draws attention to how easily we can see the faults in others, but not in ourselves.

Our exchanges are proof of that I think. What else can we do? Isn’t it better to just avoid conversations altogether?

 

[quietthinker]

I assume you meant “ignoring” you and to do so would only be to avoid conversations like this.
I have nothing against you personally QT, but your responses frustrate the socks off me.


You are not Jesus....When he spoke in illustrations, some people didn’t understand and he never ran after them to explain......but his apostles sometimes asked him what he meant, and Jesus did so...in plain English. His parable of the “wheat and the weeds” was one of those times.

I ask you for plain English and I get more cryptic responses. I simply do not understand the way you think. It is definitely a communication problem and I don’t think that will change.


QT...plain English needs no dots.


You seem to concentrate a lot on self honesty....I try to be honest, and I’m sure you do too, but perhaps self deception is also a common human trait. Sometimes hearing about yourself from others is confronting.....because of self perception....that’s a lot of “self” problems, and it draws attention to how easily we can see the faults in others, but not in ourselves.

Our exchanges are proof of that I think. What else can we do? Isn’t it better to just avoid conversations altogether?

You are loved AJ....in spite of yourself. This is the wonder of the Gospel. Maybe you think that's soppy; for me, it is my hope; it gives me strength in weakness and courage in fear. It reduces me to tears easily.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are loved AJ....in spite of yourself.

I don’t know whether to feel reassured or insulted by that comment.....see, I can’t read you.
‘loved...in spite of myself’.....what does that mean? You know what you meant, but I could take that either way.
Plain English is not ambiguous.

This is the wonder of the Gospel. Maybe you think that's soppy; for me, it is my hope; it gives me strength in weakness and courage in fear. It reduces me to tears easily.

I see clearly now that you are an emotionally driven Christian, where as I am a knowledge driven Christian. Jehovah accepts both if they genuinely love him.

But there is an old saying......“feelings are wonderful friends, but terrible masters”. I am not enslaved by my feelings but it doesn’t mean that I don’t have them. I do not rely on them to guide me because I have the word of God to do that. His word then engenders the appropriate feelings. I am not “soppy” by nature....but it doesn’t mean that I can’t be on occasion when a situation raises those feelings.

I have some very dear friends who are emotionally driven and they can’t always count on being able to commit to anything because their feelings might intervene and prevent them from carrying out what they had planned to do. It sometimes cripples them, and strains relationships unless you understand that they are obeying their invisible master. No one can help their make-up, but acknowledging it is useful. It means that you understand that not everyone thinks like you do. I have come to see that your thinking and mine are apparently poles apart. It helps to understand why. It doesn’t mean that we have to argue.


So just to keep this post on topic....who is the great crowd in your understanding?

 

[doxley]

In Rev. 7:4 John hears the number who were sealed (144 000)....a few verses down in vs 9 he looks and sees a great multitude. First he hears, then he looks.....it's the same crowd.
The numbers are figurative of all of God's people in time, again referenced in Rev.14:1-5

I meant to say a while ago that I had never noticed that before, but it makes perfect sense. Thank you!

 

[Harvest 1874]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 23:13
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

I would suggest you read our blog post entitled, "Are the Jehovah’s Witnesses the Great Company?"
This post proves conclusively that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not the Great Company mentioned in Revelation.

We likewise have another post entitled, "The Great Company, Who are they?", which might help you.

Shortly we will be adding two more studies on the Great Company as this subject appears to be a stumbling block for many of the Lord's people.

 

[Webers_Home]

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the
144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth

The JWs have a very serious problem with that particular belief.

At John 3:3-8, Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God and of a Spirit-birth
requirement to enter it. Well; that particular portion of the kingdom of God
is on track to be set up on Earth. I know that's true because everything
Jesus discussed with Nicodemus is categorized as "earthly things". (John
3:12)

Only 144,000 Witnesses count themselves Spirit-born. The common
Witnesses-- the haulers of water and the hewers of wood --are not Spirit
born, nor do they expect to be in the next life; which of course means that
the Watchtower Society's worker bees have all been, and are even now,
going door to door 'round the globe advertising a kingdom that they
themselves will never be allowed to enter due to the fact that they've been
led to blieve the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8 is in Heaven.
_

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JWs have a very serious problem with that particular belief.

At John 3:3-8, Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God and of a Spirit-birth
requirement to enter it. Well; that particular portion of the kingdom of God
is on track to be set up on Earth. I know that's true because everything
Jesus discussed with Nicodemus is categorized as "earthly things". (John
3:12)

Only 144,000 Witnesses count themselves Spirit-born. The common
Witnesses-- the haulers of water and the hewers of wood --are not Spirit
born, nor do they expect to be in the next life; which of course means that
the Watchtower Society's worker bees have all been, and are even now,
going door to door 'round the globe advertising a kingdom that they
themselves will never be allowed to enter due to the fact that they've been
led to blieve the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8 is in Heaven.
_

None of that is true.
The 144,000 will be “joint-heirs” with Christ in his kingdom, which rules from heaven. They are parties to the new covenant, just as natural Israel were parties to the old one, which means exclusivity. No one from outside Israel could become a “Jew” unless they were born into that nation (by all accounts, to a Jewish mother).

They could come to that nation and accept Jehovah as their God and obey all the laws, but they would never become “Jews” in the way that natural born Israelites were. None could become kings or priests because they had to be born into the correct tribe to even qualify for those positions.

Spiritual Israel is likewise chosen by God to fulfill a role in the administration of his kingdom, which to us is an actual government that will rule over us here on earth. All will be “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) because they were chosen by God for that role. Many who believe that they will go to heaven, have no idea what they will do there.....the anointed know exactly what their role is.

Those of us who have not received “the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) will be more than happy to enjoy their rulership over us as God was the one who chose them, so living in a world where all the rulers are chosen by God will be a privilege. We are not one bit upset that we weren’t chosen because we have no desire to go to heaven, (which is what the heavenly calling instills) we are more than happy to enjoy life as God meant it to be in the beginning.....living in paradise conditions here on earth with the best government we humans could ever have. That is “the good news of the Kingdom”. (Matthew 24:14)

 

[Harvest 1874]

The JWs have a very serious problem with that particular belief.

At John 3:3-8, Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God and of a Spirit-birth
requirement to enter it. Well; that particular portion of the kingdom of God
is on track to be set up on Earth. I know that's true because everything
Jesus discussed with Nicodemus is categorized as "earthly things". (John
3:12)

Only 144,000 Witnesses count themselves Spirit-born. The common
Witnesses-- the haulers of water and the hewers of wood --are not Spirit
born, nor do they expect to be in the next life; which of course means that
the Watchtower Society's worker bees have all been, and are even now,
going door to door 'round the globe advertising a kingdom that they
themselves will never be allowed to enter due to the fact that they've been
led to blieve the kingdom of God Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8 is in Heaven.
_

Unfortunately, my friend you seem to be as confused about this issue as are our Jehovah’s Witnesses friends.

It appears that you are under the impression that our Lord was saying that one must be spirit born in order to share in the kingdom, this is true as it pertains to the ruling phase of the kingdom, the heavenly phase of the kingdom, but not so with regards to the earthly phase.

“In the conversation which Nicodemus had here with our Lord Jesus, the Master, in explaining the matter of spiritual regeneration, used the natural order or arrangement to represent the spiritual--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." Just as there is the begetting of the fleshly being, then the quickening and finally the birth, so also with the spiritual ones.

The Christian is first BEGOTTEN of the spirit (Begotten again--1 Pet. 5:3), then QUICKENED by the spirit (Rom. 8:11) and then having attained to full development as an embryotic "New Creature" he will be "BORN of the spirit" in the resurrection--"changed" from a fleshly, human being to a heavenly or spiritual one—See 1 Cor. 15:50-53.

All who experience the new birth will be invisible to the eye, even as are the angels and all spirit beings. Observe the force of the Master's words--"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

When our Lord stated: “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?”

This was exactly what he was attempting to do, explain heavenly things, specifically spiritual regeneration this using the natural or earthly order as an example. However, Nicodemus still could not grasp what he was saying because “the natural (or earthly) man receives not the things of the spirit… nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned”. (1 Cor 2:14) One must first be begotten of the spirit before he is capable of understanding such things.

There are two phases of the kingdom, the earthly phase and the heavenly phase. Our Jehovah’s Witnesses are correct in their assumption that they will share in the earthly phase, paradise restored, that is with the exception of those who are “Anointed” among them. Most of these however are but “babes in Christ”, underdeveloped, underfed children of God, (as are the majority of the Lord's children still residing in Babylon), and as such most of these will wine up in the great company class. Both the “Little flock” and the great company are a spiritual class and as such both will receive a heavenly inheritance.

See our blog post:

Are the Jehovah's Witnesses the Great Company?

Two Phases of the Kingdom

The Two Salvations

 

[Harvest 1874]

None of that is true.
The 144,000 will be “joint-heirs” with Christ in his kingdom, which rules from heaven. They are parties to the new covenant, just as natural Israel were parties to the old one, which means exclusivity. No one from outside Israel could become a “Jew” unless they were born into that nation (by all accounts, to a Jewish mother).

They could come to that nation and accept Jehovah as their God and obey all the laws, but they would never become “Jews” in the way that natural born Israelites were. None could become kings or priests because they had to be born into the correct tribe to even qualify for those positions.

Spiritual Israel is likewise chosen by God to fulfill a role in the administration of his kingdom, which to us is an actual government that will rule over us here on earth. All will be “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) because they were chosen by God for that role. Many who believe that they will go to heaven, have no idea what they will do there.....the anointed know exactly what their role is.

Those of us who have not received “the heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1) will be more than happy to enjoy their rulership over us as God was the one who chose them, so living in a world where all the rulers are chosen by God will be a privilege. We are not one bit upset that we weren’t chosen because we have no desire to go to heaven, (which is what the heavenly calling instills) we are more than happy to enjoy life as God meant it to be in the beginning.....living in paradise conditions here on earth with the best government we humans could ever have. That is “the good news of the Kingdom”. (Matthew 24:14)

With most of this statement we are in agreement. The issue we have is in regards to the New Covenant. When you say that the 144,000 (the “Little Flock”) are “parties” to the new covenant if you mean as administrators of that covenant to the rest of the world we agree, but if you are saying that they share in that covenant then we must disagree.

The Church is a part of the Great Mediator. The Mediator stands between God and men, NOT between God and the New Creature.

See our blog post, “The Mediator and the New Covenant” for more on this issue.

 

[Aunty Jane]

With most of this statement we are in agreement. The issue we have is in regards to the New Covenant. When you say that the 144,000 (the “Little Flock”) are “parties” to the new covenant if you mean as administrators of that covenant to the rest of the world we agree, but if you are saying that they share in that covenant then we must disagree.

The Church is a part of the Great Mediator. The Mediator stands between God and men, NOT between God and the New Creature.

See our blog post, “The Mediator and the New Covenant” for more on this issue.

As with any legal agreement, (which is what covenants with God are)....there are signatories to that agreement but then there might be countless beneficiaries to it. Those of us not anointed for heaven see ourselves as beneficiaries of the new covenant whereas the anointed (the elect) are the “chosen ones”, some of whom are still alive on earth before the final showdown at Armageddon takes place. These ones will be gathered just before the end so that they will join Christ and his angelic forces in destroying all the devil’s handiwork here on earth.

We see being “born again” as a “new creature” as resurrected ones take on a new spirit body in order to exist in the realm occupied by God, his Son, and the angels. It is a new birth in a new body...something that those of the earthly citizens of the kingdom will not experience.

 

[doxley]

It's amazing how you both know such a detailed account of the kingdom, you would have thought the apostles knew some of this, but no. They were in ignorance it seems where Jesus rule was concerned, even after Pentecost.

 

[doxley]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Read the rest of Romans 8. If you do not receive the spiritual calling, you are marked for death. No two ways about it.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
One morning in Sunday school, a substitute teacher showed the class a
worldly Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph.

After it ended, I raised my hand and asked the teacher if Joseph was born
again. Well; the poor man was literally bewildered by my inquiry and asked
me to explain what I meant, so I had to tell him that Jesus said at John 3:3-
-8 that no one is getting into the kingdom of God without they undergo the
Spirit birth.

As it turned out, the substitute teacher-- along with most of the class --was
under the assumption that the Spirit-birth requirement is limited to
Christians.
_

 

[Aunty Jane]

See our blog post, “The Mediator and the New Covenant” for more on this issue.

I have no issues with this as I can plainly see that Jesus was appointed as the "one mediator between God and men", (1 Timothy 2:5) so it doesn't say "some men" but the term here I believe means all humans. Yet there are provisos....the mediator is the 'go between' so he is the one "through whom" our prayers to God can be delivered, otherwise our sinful condition would act as a barrier between us and God....how appreciative are we for this provision...? It does not limit this to the prayers of the elect...but to all who are faithful disciples of Jesus Christ.

What can act as a barrier to our prayers however...is disobedience.
If we have blood on our hands, Yahweh will not listen to our prayers. (Isaiah 1:15) ...which means omitting things that Jesus commanded, or adding things to our worship that he did not teach. One of the main barriers to communication with God is bloodguilt.

How can we have blood on our hands without actually committing bloodshed ourselves? By supporting the ones who do the shedding (in more heinous ways today than ever in history). When Jesus said to be "no part of the world" (John 8:36) he was referring to the way the world is ruled, and the hateful and immoral ways that it has adopted. He said that his Kingdom is nothing to do with man's kingdoms. We cannot therefor pretend to have dual citizenship. Daniel prophesied that God's kingdom would crush and put an end to all existing kingdoms during the rule of the present world powers, and take their place. (Daniel 2:44) His kingdom would be without end.

Since "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19) we need to separate ourselves from the humans who commit the bloodshed, and not condone them or their actions, in line with Jesus' words at Matthew 5:43-44...
"You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you".

Those who identify as "Christians" fool themselves by supporting political hatreds, because they are really supporting the devil's rulership. There is no such thing as a "just war". "The world" can fight whatever conflicts it wants to, but since we as Christ's disciples are to be "no part of the world", we will stand as neutrals....never taking sides in those issues, and never being involved in, or condoning the bloodshed. In fact you will find us in prison rather than disobeying Christ.

What else could alienate us from God? Participating in false worship like Israel did on many occasions.
Christendom today is a mirror image of Judaism, defaulting to the traditions of men and forgetting about the truth of God's word. (Matthew 15:7-9) With blatant disregard for the explicit Commands of God, Christendom had made the one God of Israel (Yahweh) into a trinity of gods found only in paganism. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

They teach that humans have an immortal part of them that survives death so that a "soul" lives on in another realm, to go to one of two destinations. Nowhere does the Bible teach that 'heaven and hell' are opposite destinations.....paganism does though.
Nowhere in the Bible is a "soul" described as a disembodied entity. A "soul" is a living, breathing creature.

So sifting through the various doctrines that Christendom has adopted, we see how far she has strayed from the word of God, much the same as her counterpart....Judaism under the rule of the Pharisees.

 

[Illuminator]

It's amazing how you both know such a detailed account of the kingdom, you would have thought the apostles knew some of this, but no. They were in ignorance it seems where Jesus rule was concerned, even after Pentecost.

The pagan Romans weren't ignorant of who succeeded Peter, they killed the first 39 of them.

 

[doxley]

I have no issues with this as I can plainly see that Jesus was appointed as the "one mediator between God and men", (1 Timothy 2:5) so it doesn't say "some men" but the term here I believe means all humans. Yet there are provisos....the mediator is the 'go between' so he is the one "through whom" our prayers to God can be delivered, otherwise our sinful condition would act as a barrier between us and God....how appreciative are we for this provision...? It does not limit this to the prayers of the elect...but to all who are faithful disciples of Jesus Christ.

What can act as a barrier to our prayers however...is disobedience.
If we have blood on our hands, Yahweh will not listen to our prayers. (Isaiah 1:15) ...which means omitting things that Jesus commanded, or adding things to our worship that he did not teach. One of the main barriers to communication with God is bloodguilt.

How can we have blood on our hands without actually committing bloodshed ourselves? By supporting the ones who do the shedding (in more heinous ways today than ever in history). When Jesus said to be "no part of the world" (John 8:36) he was referring to the way the world is ruled, and the hateful and immoral ways that it has adopted. He said that his Kingdom is nothing to do with man's kingdoms. We cannot therefor pretend to have dual citizenship. Daniel prophesied that God's kingdom would crush and put an end to all existing kingdoms during the rule of the present world powers, and take their place. (Daniel 2:44) His kingdom would be without end.

Since "the whole world lies in the power of the wicked one" (1 John 5:19) we need to separate ourselves from the humans who commit the bloodshed, and not condone them or their actions, in line with Jesus' words at Matthew 5:43-44...
"You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you".

Those who identify as "Christians" fool themselves by supporting political hatreds, because they are really supporting the devil's rulership. There is no such thing as a "just war". "The world" can fight whatever conflicts it wants to, but since we as Christ's disciples are to be "no part of the world", we will stand as neutrals....never taking sides in those issues, and never being involved in, or condoning the bloodshed. In fact you will find us in prison rather than disobeying Christ.

What else could alienate us from God? Participating in false worship like Israel did on many occasions.
Christendom today is a mirror image of Judaism, defaulting to the traditions of men and forgetting about the truth of God's word. (Matthew 15:7-9) With blatant disregard for the explicit Commands of God, Christendom had made the one God of Israel (Yahweh) into a trinity of gods found only in paganism. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

They teach that humans have an immortal part of them that survives death so that a "soul" lives on in another realm, to go to one of two destinations. Nowhere does the Bible teach that 'heaven and hell' are opposite destinations.....paganism does though.
Nowhere in the Bible is a "soul" described as a disembodied entity. A "soul" is a living, breathing creature.

So sifting through the various doctrines that Christendom has adopted, we see how far she has strayed from the word of God, much the same as her counterpart....Judaism under the rule of the Pharisees.

She's not the only one who has strayed from the original teaching...

 

[Illuminator]

.
One morning in Sunday school, a substitute teacher showed the class a
worldly Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph.

After it ended, I raised my hand and asked the teacher if Joseph was born
again. Well; the poor man was literally bewildered by my inquiry and asked
me to explain what I meant, so I had to tell him that Jesus said at John 3:3-
-8 that no one is getting into the kingdom of God without they undergo the
Spirit birth.

As it turned out, the substitute teacher-- along with most of the class --was
under the assumption that the Spirit-birth requirement is limited to
Christians.
_

A MAN OF PROVIDENCE
There are more than 10 people in the Bible who bear the name Joseph. … The name Joseph is Hebrew for “may God increase, may God give growth.” It is a wish, a blessing based on trust in providence and referring especially to fertility and to raising children. Indeed, this very name reveals to us an essential aspect of Joseph of Nazareth’s personality. He is a man full of faith, in providence: he believes in God’s providence, he has faith in God’s providence. His every action, as recounted in the Gospel, is dictated by the certainty that God “gives growth,” that God “increases,” that God “adds”: that is, that God provides for the continuation of his plan of salvation. And in this, Joseph of Nazareth is very similar to Joseph of Egypt.

A MAN OF THE HOUSE OF BETHLEHEM
The first geographical reference to Joseph, Bethlehem and Nazareth, also assume an important role in our understanding of him.

In the Old Testament, the city of Bethlehem is called Beth Lechem, that is, “House of bread,” or also Ephrathah, after the tribe that settled there. In Arabic, however, the name means “House of meat,” probably because of the large number of flocks of sheep and goats in the area. … In the light of the story of Jesus, these allusions to bread and meat refer to the mystery of the Eucharist: Jesus is the living bread descended from heaven (cf. Jn 6:51). He will say of himself: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” (John 6:54).

Bethlehem is mentioned several times in the Bible, as far back as the Book of Genesis. Bethlehem is also linked to the story of Ruth and Naomi, told in the short but wonderful Book of Ruth. Ruth bears a son named Obed, to whom in turn Jesse is born, the father of King David. And it was from the line of David that Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, descended. Then the prophet Micah foretold great things about Bethlehem: “You, Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are so little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel” (Mi 5:1). The evangelist Matthew would take up this prophecy and connect it to the story of Jesus as its evident fulfilment.

READ MORE HERE

 

[Aunty Jane]

.
One morning in Sunday school, a substitute teacher showed the class a
worldly Hollywood movie about the life of Joseph.

After it ended, I raised my hand and asked the teacher if Joseph was born
again. Well; the poor man was literally bewildered by my inquiry and asked
me to explain what I meant, so I had to tell him that Jesus said at John 3:3-
-8 that no one is getting into the kingdom of God without they undergo the
Spirit birth.

As it turned out, the substitute teacher-- along with most of the class --was
under the assumption that the Spirit-birth requirement is limited to
Christians.

The spirit anointing of Christians for heaven did not exist before Jesus came and spoke about going there. No one was ever offered heaven until Christ came and opened the way. The Jews never expected to go to heaven and neither did anyone who lived before Pentecost. Only with the outpouring of Holy Spirit was their anointing for heavenly life established. That is why their number is finite, whereas their subjects here on earth are described as a "great crowd" of infinite number who will enjoy their rulership on earth.

Pre-Christian servants of God will join John the Baptist as servants of God on earth, where he designed all humans to live in the first place. The ones with the "heavenly calling" only received that after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Not all good Christians or pre-Christians servants of God were destined for heaven. If Adam had not sinned, no human would ever have gone to heaven.....there would never have been a need for Christ to come as Redeemer, or for God to choose those who would rule with him. The Kingdom was only to restore God's first purpose. It will rule for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:6) After that it all goes back to the way it should have been in the first place......lessons learned, all disobedient ones eliminated, and precedents set for all eternity to come. Brilliant!

 

[Harvest 1874]

It's amazing how you both know such a detailed account of the kingdom, you would have thought the apostles knew some of this, but no. They were in ignorance it seems where Jesus rule was concerned, even after Pentecost.

That is because the “due time” for the wise to understand has come, (that is the wise according to spiritual understanding, the spirit begotten) in fact that due time, the “Time of the End”, began in 1799 A.D. with the end of the 1260 days of Daniel, which had its beginning when the Abomination of desolation was first set up in 539 A.D..

Or as expressed in Daniel, “a time, times and half a time”. A “time” is 360 years based on the Jewish calendar. Thus, a time (360 years), times, (2 X 360 years or 720 years) and a half a time (180 years) gives us 1260 years total.

A correct understanding of the 1,260, the 1,290, and the 1,335 days is almost essential to be in the “wise” class. To have this understanding however does not mean one is of the Little Flock, but it does mean the individual is enlightened to a degree.

As for the Apostles they lived before the “due time” for this understanding was to be fully understood, nor was it necessary for them to know at the time. Now the Apostle Paul was given some special revelations (insight) into these things, but he was forbidden at the time to fully indulge them. (2 Cor 12:1-4)

 

[Harvest 1874]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the spirit that gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Read the rest of Romans 8. If you do not receive the spiritual calling, you are marked for death. No two ways about it.

I would suggest you consider a look at the following two posts.

The Two Salvations

Two Phases of the Kingdom