The Harbinger: Decoded

[Bobby Jo]

Scripture with direct quotes is true bible prophecy. ...

IT'S CALLED "READING".

... But those who make claims without direct quotes are false teachers.

So in your "church" I guess now EVERYONE who reads is a "prophet". And because you said there are no "prophets", then by logic, everyone is a "FALSE TEACHER", -- your words!


Don't you LOVE logical thinking? -- Probably not ...

Good Job!
Bobby Jo

 

[Dave L]

IT'S CALLED "READING".



So in your "church" I guess now EVERYONE is a "prophet". And because you said there are no "i", then by logic, everyone is your "church" is a "FALSE TEACHER", -- your words!


Good Job!
Bobby Jo

What is your favorite prophecy and what references do you use to prove it originates in the bible?

 

[Bobby Jo]

What is your favorite prophecy and what references do you use to prove it originates in the bible?

Don't you KNOW? THERE ARE NO PROPHETS, and ANYONE WHO READS FROM SCRIPTURE IS A PROPHET, AND BECAUSE THERE ARE NO PROPHETS, ANYONE WHO READS FROM SCRIPTURE IS A FALSE TEACHER!

STOP READING FROM THE SCRIPTURES ALL YOU FALSE TEACHERS!

Whew, -- doesn't ANYONE study Logic, Reasoning, & Critical Thinking? As I've posted elsewhere:

... many adults have difficulty leaving their "comfort zone" to accept new information. It's not insurmountable, but the statistics are particularly troubling in adults which are indoctrinated through religious organizations. Some liken it to being "brain washed", where the individual suppresses their innate ability to employ "critical thinking" skills. However, cases have demonstrated some limited success.

Perhaps the initial phase should comprise interactions such as "questions", rather than assertions. -- "Best practice" techniques are presently being developed and refined by various research institutions.​

Bobby Jo

 

[Dave L]

Don't you KNOW? THERE ARE NO PROPHETS, and ANYONE WHO READS FROM SCRIPTURE IS A PROPHET, AND BECAUSE THERE ARE NO PROPHETS, ANYONE WHO READS FROM SCRIPTURE IS A FALSE TEACHER!

STOP READ FROM THE SCRIPTURES ALL YOU FALSE TEACHERS!

Whew, -- doesn't ANYONE study Logic, Reasoning, & Critical Thinking? As I've posted elsewhere:

... many adults have difficulty leaving their "comfort zone" to accept new information. It's not insurmountable, but the statistics are particularly troubling in adults which are indoctrinated through religious organizations. Some liken it to being "brain washed", where the individual suppresses their innate ability to employ "critical thinking" skills. However, cases have demonstrated some limited success.

Perhaps the initial phase should comprise interactions such as "questions", rather than assertions. -- "Best practice" techniques are presently being developed and refined by various research institutions.​

Bobby Jo

You need to present a prophecy and proof it originates in the bible if you want to prove the majority of today's prophecies are not altogether false.

 

[Helen]

And true prophets expose false prophets.

In the Church assembly I agree...there is the office of a prophet.
edification, exhalation, and comfort.

Prophets such as Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, etc...we do not have today.

The OT prophets stood in God's stead , and spoke from God, to the people.
Today, God HAS and IS speaking directly to His people.
There is no middle man between us and God.

 

[Bobby Jo]

You need to present a prophecy and proof it originates in the bible if you want to prove the majority of today's prophecies are not altogether false.

I'd read from the Scriptures, but you'd accuse me of being a "Prophet", which apparently don't exist anymore, and then accuse me of be a FALSE TEACHER. So I'll merely cite from memory what Scripture says:

Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers​

If ONE (Prophets) is for "times past", the ALL are for "times past", and you CANNOT believe ANYTHING I say, because in your eyes I'm a FALSE TEACHER.

Furthermore, if I were to attempt to explain Scripture and History, knowing you won't accept it, then I'd be "throwing pearls before the swine", which is to say -- wasting my time.


So as of now, I'll simply add you to the "IGNORE" list,
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

I like your assumptions about how I have arrived at my conclusions with regards to the End Times and your interwoven put down it contains as I purposely do not give the same righteousness vibe that you do in my posts.

If you can find another author that you are suggesting that I have been indoctrinated by to write the conclusions that I post, then please let me know so that I can read his work and take a break from the likes of you as I do not have to provide the level of detail that you require as I do not want to be confined and live under your "laws" of posting. If you can tell me who I am supposed to be parroting from on the end times, then I will be able to stop posting an let this magical person post similarly to what I have been posting and take a break.

I have not read anyone on this forum who has been writing the same understanding that I have. Who on this site or on any other forum for that matter is writing that Iraq is the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy as I have done on this forum and one other.

Have a good day now Naomi, you hear me?

It was not an assumption, but an explantation and invitation. You, in point of fact, made an assumption about what "normally comes from my pen", so I explained to you why I ask for a solid grounding in a person's "opinion". Which, was not an "assumption" that you cannot give said solid grounding, but an invitation for you to do so.
If you cannot or choose not to, that is entirely upon you.

 

[Naomi25]

I think we have a very different understanding of Isaiah. I take the verse and the preceding chapter about a coming assyrian invasion very differently. And I take Their response to it of :we will rebuild, as arrogance, because God calls it arrogance on their part...
I don't disconnect the chapter after the coming invasion and wonder what all could have made the bricks fall. I think it was the Assyrian invasion that made the bricks fall...
I think we can't connect because you don't see the 2 chapters as related, which is okay. You have right to your own understanding of what you read!

Well, yes, I think we do read it differently, but I must also be perfectly honest and say I have not done much study on it! I think my reaction comes down to the fact that we KNOW that Isaiah is talking about Israel. But pushing it forward and trying to make it also talk about America when there is no real biblical suggestion to do so, doesn't sit well with me. I think we can take a step back and make a note that naturally, any nation that turns it's back on God will experience an...implosion. Corrosion from within, attacks from without. But I'm just not comfortable making a connection and jump when I don't see biblical "permission"! If that makes sense.
But goodness knows I've been wrong before! And, I cannot deny that God has filled the bible with foreshadowing events. So....I suppose it's not outside the bounds of possibility.

 

[Jay Ross]

You know...I can't say that I see America, planes, towers, 25 years, or anything that your intimating in the passage above. One wonders how on earth you pull the conclusions you do.

America is the dominate nation that exercises dominion through force over other nations. NYC is the centre for world government. The image of three planes is described in the sixth bowl judgement prophecy.

The fact that you are not able to visualise a plane from the text is your issue to deal with. I for one thought John adequately described a plane in what he wrote base on his understand of knowledge some 2,000 years ago.

Now, from observation,it take around 40 years for an outcome or understanding for action to develop within the environment of groupings of people.

Now if we add the 40 or so years to 2001, the year that 9/11 occurred, the in around 25 years time we will see the events of Armageddon occurring.

What happens at Armageddon, in around 25 or so years time? Isaiah 24:21-22 occurs. So, if the wicked heavenly hosts are judged in heaven, i.e. Satan, the false prophet, i.e. the little horn, and the beast i.e. the amalgamation of the four winds of heaven/heavenly hosts/angels., then the three foul frog like demonic spirits coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet happened before their ability was curtailed to send the foul frog like spirits out to perform signs and wonders for all of the world to see. It is only in recent times that events in one part of the world could also be transmitted to every corner of the world for the whole world to see what was occurring. The technology nor the common ownership of the TV networks was not in place to make such a thing happen.

The timing of the 9/11 event had to allow time for governments, around the world, to come together with a common goal, to act together against God's chosen people. The clock of the time of the gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God was running down, Daniel 8:14, before God would establish His everlasting Kingdom when he judges the beasts/the fallen wicked demonic heavenly hosts in heaven, Revelation 12:7-9, and Revelation 20:3, 17:8, etc. Daniel 2:44-45, Daniel 7:13-14

If I have to satisfy all of your whims of proof then I would need to write a book which is not possible on a discussion forum. Perhaps the above may suffice for the moment to show that I have based my posts of a firm foundation.

 

[amadeus]

If you believe scripture, you also won't believe in prophets today.

As I explained to you once before, Dave, you also at times are a prophet of God. When any of us speaks even a measure of God's truth does it not ultimately come from God. That is what prophecy really is. It may well include predictions, but too many people at that possible aspect only. When we read the Bible, God may speak to us. When we observe the visible heavens [stars, sun and moon and such] God may speak to us. You would limit God as did the children of Israel in the OT. Perhaps people can limit God and still walk with Him, but I would not like tempt Him in such a way.

"How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy." Psalm 78:40-42

If God had not presently spoken to each of our hearts, while reading the scriptures or elsewhere, where would each believer in Him now be? Is not our true testimony of this event for ourselves also prophetic?

 

[Heart2Soul]

This happened as foretold.

Dave I think you are a very nice guy with a heart to teach and share but for all the times myself or others ask for your scripture of reference you instead reply with your own thoughts and beliefs. How can I come to understand how you have come to the conclusion of your belief if I dont even know what scripture you are basing it on?

 

[amadeus]

False prophets were condemned to death in the OT. And many calling themselves Christians are nothing more than false prophets. The proof is in their inability to produce direct quotes from scripture supporting their views. Dispensationalists use scripture, but they cannot produce direct quotes for any of their claims.

And even true prophets in the OT such as the unnamed prophet who was sent out of Judah onto Jeroboam the king of Israel, have suffered death for their own errors, but their prophecies remained valid!

"And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee." I Kings 13:2

But the man of God after speaking the prophecy disobeyed God... and a prophecy was declared against him:

"And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase." I Kings 13:21-24

And then the fulfillment of the prophecy of this prophet, this man of God who disobeyed God and died...

About 350 years later we read:

"And as Josiah turned himself, he spied the sepulchres that were there in the mount, and sent, and took the bones out of the sepulchres, and burned them upon the altar, and polluted it, according to the word of the LORD which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these words.
Then he said, What title is that that I see? And the men of the city told him, It is the sepulchre of the man of God, which came from Judah, and proclaimed these things that thou hast done against the altar of Bethel." II Kings 23:16-17

In sprite of the prophet's disobedience and death, what he prophesied was fulfilled including even the name of a king who had not yet at the time of the prophecy even been born.

 

[Heart2Soul]

In the Church assembly I agree...there is the office of a prophet.
edification, exhalation, and comfort.

Prophets such as Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, etc...we do not have today.

The OT prophets stood in God's stead , and spoke from God, to the people.
Today, God HAS and IS speaking directly to His people.
There is no middle man between us and God.

Yes, absolutely right on Grace! The prophets today serve in the church. ..most of the genuine ones do not sit in a position of authority. ...the Office of a Prophet does signify a ranking position but only to the point of obedience to the Holy Spirit and to speak what he hears and to expose false teaching and false prophets.....but any mature Christian should be able to test the spirit to know if it is of God and to rightly divide the truth....a church full of babes in Christ need seasoned teachers....also the prophet in the church can confirm a interpretation in tongues.. .(let His Word be established by 2 or more witnesses).
The greatest role, however, is to pray and intercede and listen to what the Holy Spirit says to pray.

 

[amadeus]

But there are not prophets today. All prophecy today is man made fiction.

And of course you also deny what Apostle Paul wrote to us hear under the anointing of God?

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

He said the edifying of the body of Christ would effectively be continued through the ministers, including prophets, until we all come into the unity of the faith. Has this really already happened according to your personal witness? Being honest about it I would hardly think you could so testify.

 

[Nancy]

Interesting fiction, IMHO. Isn't "revelation" type prophecy kind of already known through The Revelation of Jesus Christ? I see prophets of today who speak for God, speaking what has already been foretold, in the last book of the Bible...people will accept or not but...they can never say they were not forewarned of what is to come. This is just my own understanding so, go easy

 

[Naomi25]

America is the dominate nation that exercises dominion through force over other nations. NYC is the centre for world government. The image of three planes is described in the sixth bowl judgement prophecy.

The fact that you are not able to visualise a plane from the text is your issue to deal with. I for one thought John adequately described a plane in what he wrote base on his understand of knowledge some 2,000 years ago.

Now, from observation,it take around 40 years for an outcome or understanding for action to develop within the environment of groupings of people.

Now if we add the 40 or so years to 2001, the year that 9/11 occurred, the in around 25 years time we will see the events of Armageddon occurring.

What happens at Armageddon, in around 25 or so years time? Isaiah 24:21-22 occurs. So, if the wicked heavenly hosts are judged in heaven, i.e. Satan, the false prophet, i.e. the little horn, and the beast i.e. the amalgamation of the four winds of heaven/heavenly hosts/angels., then the three foul frog like demonic spirits coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet happened before their ability was curtailed to send the foul frog like spirits out to perform signs and wonders for all of the world to see. It is only in recent times that events in one part of the world could also be transmitted to every corner of the world for the whole world to see what was occurring. The technology nor the common ownership of the TV networks was not in place to make such a thing happen.

The timing of the 9/11 event had to allow time for governments, around the world, to come together with a common goal, to act together against God's chosen people. The clock of the time of the gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God was running down, Daniel 8:14, before God would establish His everlasting Kingdom when he judges the beasts/the fallen wicked demonic heavenly hosts in heaven, Revelation 12:7-9, and Revelation 20:3, 17:8, etc. Daniel 2:44-45, Daniel 7:13-14

If I have to satisfy all of your whims of proof then I would need to write a book which is not possible on a discussion forum. Perhaps the above may suffice for the moment to show that I have based my posts of a firm foundation.

My “whims of proof”? Seriously? If you don’t think you need to, should or can “prove” what you believe about your faith, why don’t you toss your bible away and just start making it up as you go?
And it is eminently possible to “back up” your posts on a forum. No one is asking you to write a book, or even a thesis. Just give a few verses to show careful, biblical thought has gone into your doctrines.
Sadly, This seems to be one of those ipso factso times, because I’m not seeing careful biblical thought, I’m seeing wild assumption.
“Observation”, seems to place a 40 time limit on your thoughts? So, not only are you inserting planes where there are none into an event that is not specified, but you are also wildly guessing a time frame based upon what? Observation of what? Your own? Your Pastors? The bibles? Who’s observation?

 

[Jay Ross]

My “whims of proof”? Seriously? If you don’t think you need to, should or can “prove” what you believe about your faith, why don’t you toss your bible away and just start making it up as you go?
And it is eminently possible to “back up” your posts on a forum. No one is asking you to write a book, or even a thesis. Just give a few verses to show careful, biblical thought has gone into your doctrines.
Sadly, This seems to be one of those ipso factso times, because I’m not seeing careful biblical thought, I’m seeing wild assumption.
“Observation”, seems to place a 40 time limit on your thoughts? So, not only are you inserting planes where there are none into an event that is not specified, but you are also wildly guessing a time frame based upon what? Observation of what? Your own? Your Pastors? The bibles? Who’s observation?

My dear lost soul, if with our 20/20 hindsight, we are not able to see that 9/11 is a part fulfilment of the 16:12-16 sixth bowl judgement, then we are all blind souls with no hope of being able to unravel or understand the End Time prophecies.

As of yet, I have not seen any enlightenment from your good self that will explain what was occurring during the 9/11 events, at the present time being posted by your good self, with respect to the sixth bowl judgement.

If you personally have an alternate understanding of this bowl judgement that makes sense, then please present it so that I can learn from your great wisdom.

As for your claim that no planes are referred to in this prophecy by John, then how would have John been able to tell us that what he observed in the prophecy were plane when he suggested that they were foul frogs which could go out to the whole world performing signs and wonders. The reality of planes that could fly, would be nearly 2,000 years into the future from his time. I for one believe that John used what he knew to provide an accurate word picture of what he saw. He wrote, "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs," which means that John was guessing what the three unclean spirits were like from what he knew. Today with our ability to look back at this event that was the 9/11 event in NYC, we can recognise what John described by the image picture that he presented looked like frogs and if we look at the shape of a frog leaping across a space, by looking at it, then I am sure that with a little bit of artistic license we would see that the shape of a leaping frog can be seen in a large commercial passenger flying over head.

You can take it or leave it. The above was my rational for my conclusion.

However, if you have a better understanding then please present it so that we all can be enlightened.

The ball is now at your feet to kick your own home goal.

 

[Naomi25]

My dear lost soul, if with our 20/20 hindsight, we are not able to see that 9/11 is a part fulfilment of the 16:12-16 sixth bowl judgement, then we are all blind souls with no hope of being able to unravel or understand the End Time prophecies.

As of yet, I have not seen any enlightenment from your good self that will explain what was occurring during the 9/11 events, at the present time being posted by your good self, with respect to the sixth bowl judgement.

If you personally have an alternate understanding of this bowl judgement that makes sense, then please present it so that I can learn from your great wisdom.

As for your claim that no planes are referred to in this prophecy by John, then how would have John been able to tell us that what he observed in the prophecy were plane when he suggested that they were foul frogs which could go out to the whole world performing signs and wonders. The reality of planes that could fly, would be nearly 2,000 years into the future from his time. I for one believe that John used what he knew to provide an accurate word picture of what he saw. He wrote, "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs," which means that John was guessing what the three unclean spirits were like from what he knew. Today with our ability to look back at this event that was the 9/11 event in NYC, we can recognise what John described by the image picture that he presented looked like frogs and if we look at the shape of a frog leaping across a space, by looking at it, then I am sure that with a little bit of artistic license we would see that the shape of a leaping frog can be seen in a large commercial passenger flying over head.

You can take it or leave it. The above was my rational for my conclusion.

However, if you have a better understanding then please present it so that we all can be enlightened.

The ball is now at your feet to kick your own home goal.

Your rational conclusion still only holds your own opinion and guesswork.
Although I would much prefer to take my time and present my view in my own words after doing my own research, I’m afraid at present I cannot. I am away from home being my cousins support person as she’s had to under-go surgery. So, here is the work of a scholar and Pastor I respect, Sam Storms:

“The Sixth Bowl (16:12-16)

In the OT God’s deliverance of his people was achieved by the drying up of the Red Sea which allowed them to escape Pharaoh’s armies. A similar phenomenon later occurred with the Jordan river, allowing Israel to enter the promised land... n these two OT cases the water is dried up to facilitate the deliverance of God’s people from his enemies, in Rev. the water is dried up to facilitate the attack on Gods people by his enemies.

The imagery of kings coming from the east, from the vicinity of the Euphrates, was standard OT prophetic language for the enemies of Israel coming to invade and destroy. G. B. Caird points out that “to the Roman the Euphrates was the eastern frontier, but to the Jew it was the northern frontier of Palestine, across which Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian invaders had come to impose their pagan sovereignty on the people of God. All the scriptural warnings about a foe from the north, therefore, find their echo in John’s blood-curdling vision” (122). On this see especially Isa. 5:26-29; 7:20; 8:7-8; 14:29-31; Jer. 1:14-15; 4:6-13; 6:1,22; 10:22; 13:20; Ezek. 38:6,15; 39:2; Joel 2:1-11,20-25; as well as Isa. 14:31; Jer. 25:9,26; 46-47 (esp. 46:4, 22-23); 50:41-42; Ezekiel 26:7-11.

Whereas v. 12 summarily explains the sixth bowl, vv. 13-16 provide the details. Here again we see the unholy triumvirate of Satan, the beast, and the false-prophet (called that for the first time here). Their deceptive influence is portrayed through the imagery of three unclean, obviously demonic, spirits in the form or appearance of frogs, which obviously alludes to the frogs in the Exodus plague (8:1-15). In ancient Jewish literature frogs were viewed not only as ceremonially unclean but also as agents of destruction. Beale suggests that “the frogs and their croaking represent the confusion brought about by deception” (832). That the frogs are metaphorical is seen from the fact that they “perform signs” (v. 14). In other words, these demonic spirits utilize supernatural phenomena to deceive and thereby influence humans to follow after the beast (cf. 13:11ff.). The primary target of their deception is the kings of the earth, i.e., political leaders and authorities who align themselves with the principles of the beast in opposition to God.”

This is far from the full article and therefore not a full and proper exegesis of the passage, but both time and word limit restrict me here. I hope you get the gist, however, and make note of the full use of bible passages Sam used to back his opinion up.
If you would kindly return the favour and dispense with the Snarkiness, that would be nice. All I’m asking for is some bible. I wouldn’t have thought that’d be too much for a Christian site...

 

[Jay Ross]

Your rational conclusion still only holds your own opinion and guesswork.
Although I would much prefer to take my time and present my view in my own words after doing my own research, I’m afraid at present I cannot. I am away from home being my cousins support person as she’s had to under-go surgery. So, here is the work of a scholar and Pastor I respect, Sam Storms:

Thank you for your example of the style of writing that you prefer to see for justifying what I write.

Sadly, Sam's understanding of Rev 16:12-16 is not in keeping with the text he is quoting. I note that some of his biblical references were off topic and subject matter in that they were not applicable to or were directly associated with the sixth bowl judgement.

A quote from the same article that you referenced above is: -

To put it simply, Armageddon is prophetic symbolism for the whole world in its collective defeat and judgment by Christ at his second coming. The imagery of war, of kings and nations doing battle on an all-too-familiar battlefield (Megiddo), is used as a metaphor of the consummate, cosmic, and decisive defeat by Christ of all his enemies (Satan, beast, false prophet, and all who bear the mark of the beast) on that final day. That, by the way, is how human history as we now know it will come to an end. It won’t be due to environmental catastrophes or a large meteorite or alien invasions but by the decisive and dramatic re-entrance into history of the King of the Universe, Jesus Christ!

Thus we see that demonic spirits will be unleashed in an unprecedented way at the end of the age to stir up and mobilize the leaders of all nations to unite their forces in an effort to crush the Church and to wipe Christianity from the face of the earth. But to no avail, as we shall see.​

​

and showed to me that Sam's understanding places the 6th bowl judgement at the end of the wrong age. He is suggesting that the 6th bowl occurs at the end of the final age just before Christ's second advent whereas I place it at the end of this present age and that the judgement of the beasts and the kings of the earth was foretold to occur on the same day in Isaiah 24:21-22 as well as the judgement of the beasts in Revelation 12:7-13 and we are told in Rev 20:3, 13:11 and 17:8 tells us that Satan, the false prophet, i.e. the little horn, and the four faceted beast which are the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 joined together as is also described in Dan 7:19-23.

Of interest was his comments concerning the frogs: -

In ancient Jewish literature frogs were viewed not only as ceremonially unclean but also as agents of destruction. Beale suggests that “the frogs and their croaking represent the confusion brought about by deception” (832). That the frogs are metaphorical is seen from the fact that they “perform signs” (v. 14). In other words, these demonic spirits utilize supernatural phenomena to deceive and thereby influence humans to follow after the beast (cf. 13:11ff.). The primary target of their deception is the kings of the earth, i.e., political leaders and authorities who align themselves with the principles of the beast in opposition to God.

and that the "frogs" were a metaphorical image of what was performing the signs and wonders. In the 9/11 event, the metaphorical frog were planes.

However, the four faceted beast at this stage has not yet come together and been manifested here on the earth as will only occur as a manifested beast in the distant future when Satan, the beast(s) and the false prophet. i.e. the little horn, are released from the bottomless pit.

The signs and wonders that was performed during the 9/11 event was the attach by the three metaphorical frogs, i.e. the three terorist controlled planes, against the three pillars that are worshipped around the world. The twin towers/pillars of the world trade centre and the burried pillar of power that symbolised dominion and great power, the Penegon in Washington. The outcome of this attach is the lead growing resentment against Israel by the many nations on the earth which will become the driving force for all of the nations of the earth to gather at Armageddon in preparation to go up against Israel because of their attempt to build the third temple which the nations do not want to happen. In Luke 14, Jesus foretold of the desire of Israel to build a third temple, but He also said that they would not have the means to complete the temple and would look foolish to the other nations of the world.

Although Sam and I may hold similar views concerning certain aspects of the End times, I am afraid that we both tend to disagree with the other's expressed points of view. You may like Sam's presentation style, and also accept his understanding of the End Times, but to believe that his presented understanding is true is a very different matter.

I would suggest that Sam still holds to the traditional understanding of the End Times that has "dominated" the "church's" position for many centauries which is also alined with much of the SDA's views.

Sam has not swayed me from my understanding with his scholarly presentation. He is, in my view, presenting the wrong understanding of what is to occur during the End Times.

Shalom

 

[farouk]

Dave I think you are a very nice guy with a heart to teach and share but for all the times myself or others ask for your scripture of reference you instead reply with your own thoughts and beliefs. How can I come to understand how you have come to the conclusion of your belief if I dont even know what scripture you are basing it on?

Always good to ask for Scriptures.