Yea!! That is three and a half years after.
Christ initiated a new covenant. It took one week to initiate it, the second half of which is still to come with the Lord's two end time prophets. The covenant however is eternal.
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The "HE" of Daniel 9:27
- Thread starter Ray
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Yea!! That is three and a half years after.
Christ initiated a new covenant. It took one week to initiate it, the second half of which is still to come with the Lord's two end time prophets. The covenant however is eternal.
.
Do these numbers sound familiar to you?
Matthew 18:21-22
I hardly think Jesus pulled those numbers out of his hat
As I've heard taught countless times!
Do you see a gap in these numbers? Christ didn't say 69&1/2 x 7 and the the 1/2 forgive your brother
Which BTW is speaking of the grace extended to the Jews under the law. Until the delivery of salvation apart from the law.
Matthew 18:21-22
I hardly think Jesus pulled those numbers out of his hat
As I've heard taught countless times!
Do you see a gap in these numbers? Christ didn't say 69&1/2 x 7 and the the 1/2 forgive your brother
Which BTW is speaking of the grace extended to the Jews under the law. Until the delivery of salvation apart from the law.
but there is a gap in these for which we speak.
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off,
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
KJV
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand , that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again , and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined .
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation,and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off,
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
KJV
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression,and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand , that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again , and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off , but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined .
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation,and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .
I just want to say our post bumped one another as I was trying to add to the last post on the other page.
I have since added to the one above changing the time stamp. My bold letters were intended to be included in the other post. They were not for you.
With that said I hope your curious, and read back a bit instead of commenting at the bottom post. We have had a two page conversation.
He stepped out and you stepped in so to speak. I can't breath life into a man in my own effort, that being said as well I hope your curious to look back at what was said. I not going to entertain your post. I've already done that. Its much better the Spirit reveal the truth than me.
God Bless.
teleiosis
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Oh, come on.
The Pharisees taught to forgive three times and then you could hold a resentment.
Peter, in "getting" the Gospel message, takes the instruction given him and goes more than twice beyond what he was taught as a "high" number.
Jesus then explodes that notion in hyperbolic fashion by adding a factor of ten times to the original enlargement.
Mt 18:21-22 is not in reference to Daniel 9:24. Daniel 9:24 is in reference to Lev 26:18.
Then how about some more evidence that Jesus came to the Jews exclusively during the 70th week
[sup]21 [/sup]Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. [sup]22 [/sup]And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
[sup]23 [/sup]But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
[sup]24 [/sup]But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
[sup]25 [/sup]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
[sup]26 [/sup]But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
[sup]27 [/sup]And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
[sup]28 [/sup]Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Countless times +1
[sup]21 [/sup]Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. [sup]22 [/sup]And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
[sup]23 [/sup]But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
[sup]24 [/sup]But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
[sup]25 [/sup]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
[sup]26 [/sup]But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
[sup]27 [/sup]And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
[sup]28 [/sup]Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Countless times +1
The covenant is stated to be confirmed with many for a week. It does not say it is only a week long. So, many who was it confirmed with? Many Israelites, as this prophecy is directed at them. It says confirmed with many for a week, not that it is a week long.
It's like saying, "I worked with many clients for 8 hours last week". Does that denote that I have not worked this week? No. Does this denote I shall not work with any clients anymore, ever again? No. There were just a set amount of time I worked with clients during that week. Does this mean that only for those 8 hours was I ever to work with those clients? No!
In this case, Jesus worked with many Israelites for a week. He preached for 3.5, and the Apostles bore witness for Him for 3.5 more. Then at the end of that week, the Gospel went to others, than the Israelites. Daniel does not imply the covenant shall not be made with any others, nor does he state the covenant is only a week long. It says for a week, he shall confirm the covenant with many (Israelites).
The 70th week is not split off from the 69th week. 69 logically comes before 70. We have sound, and conclusive evidence that the 70th week followed the 69th.
teleiosis
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Just what does "confirm" mean to you? And please answer with more than "made firm."
Secondly, please show from the book of Acts that the Apostles stopped evangelizing the Jews after three and a half years.
You're the one that keeps insisting, along with the other three on this thread from its inception, that Jesus began the one 'seven.'
You keep saying that He was "in" the one 'seven' during His Ministry of the first Advent.
So if you want to say the one 'seven' has already been started, then do you differ with Ray and say the "he" of Dan 9:27 is someone else besides Jesus?
teleiosis
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Well, I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and change my thinking. It's not right to just say: "You're wrong!" Doing so just garners enemies. If they are to change their minds, it must come about by their own thinking; they have to realize it for themselves. Like I've heard said: "It's not a good idea, until it's my idea." That, unfortunately, is part of human nature; the more ego: the worse it is too.
We do have to question our beliefs. What did Paul say in conjunction with prophecies? Test them. 1Th 5:21 We have to examine our faith. 2Co 13:5 We have to test our actions too. Gal 6:4 I've heard it said that we should not automatically believe everything we think. Now, I am not questioning faith in Christ when I say this, but of all those petty beliefs within which I construct my theology. Is something really true just because I think it? Am I really reading this passage correctly? Can it mean more than one thing? How was the language used in that time? Who is speaking? Who is being addressed? Does that word mean what I think it does in the original language?
There are some basic incongruities in the idea that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus:
1. Jesus never conferred a limited-time covenant - ever.
2. He didn't state any covenant with the start of His Ministry.
3. The only covenant He made was at the end of His Ministry at the Last Supper, which is the midpoint as the OP would have it.
4. While Christ's sacrifice is the only atoning offering we need, sacrifice went on in the Temple after the crucifixion and resurrection.
5. In Dan 9:26, there are three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens' and which go to the end.
6. The end is also stated in Dan 9:27 as being at the end of the one 'seven.'
7. One of those conditions is still on-going: war.
8. Another condition happened nearly four decades later - more than a generation.
9. Those conditions establish a "gap" in prophecy; there are many "gaps" in prophecies in the Bible.
10. While there is a gap in the seventy 'sevens,' the one 'seven' is not split, but it has a midpoint.
11. Revelation mentions those halves five times in three chapters.
12. At the end of one half, Rev 13:14-15 describes an abomination.
Likewise, there is a perfectly good logical explanation for the "he" of Daniel 9:27, and it is in Revelation chapter 13, the Olivet Discourse, other visions of Daniel, and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians; and it is the anti-Christ, the ruler who will come who "forces" the covenant with many by his might (backed up with the military of the fourth terrible beast whom no one is able to make war against).
The first half he has the authority to rule, and at the midpoint, a talking image - an abomination - is placed in the Temple. With this come two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect which sees that they are nearly wiped out if not for the hand of God beginning the Day of the Lord and shortening that time so some Christians will actually be alive to see Jesus coming on the clouds 1Th 3:13 / Rev 1:7.
And that's a beautiful thing and Paul said to mention that to cheer one another up.
We do have to question our beliefs. What did Paul say in conjunction with prophecies? Test them. 1Th 5:21 We have to examine our faith. 2Co 13:5 We have to test our actions too. Gal 6:4 I've heard it said that we should not automatically believe everything we think. Now, I am not questioning faith in Christ when I say this, but of all those petty beliefs within which I construct my theology. Is something really true just because I think it? Am I really reading this passage correctly? Can it mean more than one thing? How was the language used in that time? Who is speaking? Who is being addressed? Does that word mean what I think it does in the original language?
There are some basic incongruities in the idea that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus:
1. Jesus never conferred a limited-time covenant - ever.
2. He didn't state any covenant with the start of His Ministry.
3. The only covenant He made was at the end of His Ministry at the Last Supper, which is the midpoint as the OP would have it.
4. While Christ's sacrifice is the only atoning offering we need, sacrifice went on in the Temple after the crucifixion and resurrection.
5. In Dan 9:26, there are three conditions which happen after the sixty-two 'sevens' and which go to the end.
6. The end is also stated in Dan 9:27 as being at the end of the one 'seven.'
7. One of those conditions is still on-going: war.
8. Another condition happened nearly four decades later - more than a generation.
9. Those conditions establish a "gap" in prophecy; there are many "gaps" in prophecies in the Bible.
10. While there is a gap in the seventy 'sevens,' the one 'seven' is not split, but it has a midpoint.
11. Revelation mentions those halves five times in three chapters.
12. At the end of one half, Rev 13:14-15 describes an abomination.
Likewise, there is a perfectly good logical explanation for the "he" of Daniel 9:27, and it is in Revelation chapter 13, the Olivet Discourse, other visions of Daniel, and Paul's letters to the Thessalonians; and it is the anti-Christ, the ruler who will come who "forces" the covenant with many by his might (backed up with the military of the fourth terrible beast whom no one is able to make war against).
The first half he has the authority to rule, and at the midpoint, a talking image - an abomination - is placed in the Temple. With this come two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect which sees that they are nearly wiped out if not for the hand of God beginning the Day of the Lord and shortening that time so some Christians will actually be alive to see Jesus coming on the clouds 1Th 3:13 / Rev 1:7.
And that's a beautiful thing and Paul said to mention that to cheer one another up.
Very very true words
You and the Spirit of the Lord will figure it out teleiosis Phil 1:6
I just got done reading a post a testimony from MTPockets this is a couple of sentences from his post http://www.christian..._60#entry175486
Its a pretty inspirational post
But I discovered that sometimes we can't comprehend the Word of God because our heads have been filled with so many conflicting and confusing ideas. But once I began to take a fresh look at the Bible ... away from the noise of the puppet masters, that's when everything dramatically changed for me.
God Blesses those that seek the truth
teleiosis
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I take my own inventory. If there is something in my eye, I'll take it out with the help of God and another Christian.
You take your own inventory. I cannot remove the splinter from your eye which prevents you from seeing that Jesus cannot be the one who forces the covenant with many that starts the one 'seven.'
So as to conflicting and confusing ideas, I've already listed the incongruities of your position above. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink. However, I can salt the oats. If you honestly answer the questions I have posed, perhaps you can test your beliefs in a fearless manner.
You take your own inventory. I cannot remove the splinter from your eye which prevents you from seeing that Jesus cannot be the one who forces the covenant with many that starts the one 'seven.'
So as to conflicting and confusing ideas, I've already listed the incongruities of your position above. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink. However, I can salt the oats. If you honestly answer the questions I have posed, perhaps you can test your beliefs in a fearless manner.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, teleiosis.
Actually, it does and I can:
Luke 1:67-79
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation (rescue; deliverance) for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child (Yochanan or John), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation (rescue; deliverance) unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
KJV
Psalm 89:3-18
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed (Yeshua`) will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
KJV
And, WHEN (at what time in Yeshua`s ministry) did Yochanan the Immerser herald the Messiah to be King?
Now's the time when we tell youngsters (and old people alike) about the Christmas story, and we'll read them Matthew 2 and Luke 1. Pay close attention to Matthew's message in chapters 1 and 2:
Matthew 1:1-2:23
1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus (Yeshua`), who is called Christ (the Messiah).
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (YESHUA` = "he will save/deliver/rescue"): for he shall save (rescue; deliver) his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ (the Messiah) should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem (Beeyt-Lechem = "House of Bread"), in the land of Juda (Y'hudah = "praise"), art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor (Mowsheel = "Ruler"), that shall rule my people Israel. (Micah 5:2)
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him (bow before him) also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy (Jeremiah, Yirmeyahu) the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
KJV
Then, the very next verses are the next important thing to Matthew, who presents Him as the King:
Matthew 3:1-17
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you (plural) with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV
Well, actually, that too is an assumption on your part. What you have are three time frames: "time, times, and half a time," "forty and two months," and "one thousand two hundred and threescore years." You ASSUME that at least two of these represent different times, but in fact they may ALL speak about the same time period. However, these three ways of saying this amount of time are significantly different in reality. They are not three ways of saying the same amount of time; they are actually different amounts of time, thus the need for three different ways of reporting these lengths of time! And, yes, I agree that the second half has not happened yet!
Actually, it does and I can:
Luke 1:67-79
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation (rescue; deliverance) for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child (Yochanan or John), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation (rescue; deliverance) unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
KJV
Psalm 89:3-18
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed (Yeshua`) will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
KJV
And, WHEN (at what time in Yeshua`s ministry) did Yochanan the Immerser herald the Messiah to be King?
Now's the time when we tell youngsters (and old people alike) about the Christmas story, and we'll read them Matthew 2 and Luke 1. Pay close attention to Matthew's message in chapters 1 and 2:
Matthew 1:1-2:23
1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus (Yeshua`), who is called Christ (the Messiah).
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (YESHUA` = "he will save/deliver/rescue"): for he shall save (rescue; deliver) his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ (the Messiah) should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem (Beeyt-Lechem = "House of Bread"), in the land of Juda (Y'hudah = "praise"), art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor (Mowsheel = "Ruler"), that shall rule my people Israel. (Micah 5:2)
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him (bow before him) also.
9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy (Jeremiah, Yirmeyahu) the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
KJV
Then, the very next verses are the next important thing to Matthew, who presents Him as the King:
Matthew 3:1-17
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you (plural) with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV
Well, actually, that too is an assumption on your part. What you have are three time frames: "time, times, and half a time," "forty and two months," and "one thousand two hundred and threescore years." You ASSUME that at least two of these represent different times, but in fact they may ALL speak about the same time period. However, these three ways of saying this amount of time are significantly different in reality. They are not three ways of saying the same amount of time; they are actually different amounts of time, thus the need for three different ways of reporting these lengths of time! And, yes, I agree that the second half has not happened yet!
Am I talking to a wall? I feel like my words are just bouncing off and not being heard! "Gabar" or "Gavar" means "to strengthen" and IF one is fighting against someone else and wins, THEN it can be said that the person "prevailed!" I haven't given up on you, yet, but when I do, you will know it. There won't be any more rebuttal; I just simply won't talk to you about it anymore. If you cannot examine what I've written with an open mind and you would rather hold on tight to your comfortable way of interpreting Dani'el 9:24-27, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject and move on. It's just that from that time on, we'll have no foundation of understanding between us to continue discussing prophecy. I would not like to see that happen, yet. I believe in you! I believe that anyone who has the stamina and the thoughtfulness to create a masterful work as you did with the outline on prophecy has great potential, IF they can get beyond their "blind spots." See, the problem is that, once Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom was refused and He took back His offer to offer it again to a future generation, then HE MOVED ON, as did His students. This was when He presented to them the NEW COVENANT - the Old Covenant with a NEW delivery system! In their hearts instead of just on paper! HOWEVER, the Old Covenant/New Covenant, beginning at Sinai, is a DIFFERENT covenant system than the ABRAHAMIC Covenant passed on through Yitschaq (Isaac), and Ya`acov (Jacob), and Y'hudah (Judah) and on down the line until David and Shlomo (Solomon), and finally down to Yeshua` the Messiah. This covenant system is NOT about "being right with God"; this covenant system is about the LEADERSHIP of the nation and the nations, the KINGSHIP!
Retrobyter
when you get a chance I'd like to hear the rest of this comment
never mind I found your explanation in another thread
Funny how all the prophets always mention the rejection isn't it
Just wouldn't be official if men did anoint Yeshua I see now your reference John TB. The problem is the Father in Heaven recognized it and anointed Him.
Had they anointed Him and made him king wouldn't that have made all the OT prophets liers as well?
What a tangled web we weave.
when you get a chance I'd like to hear the rest of this comment
never mind I found your explanation in another thread
Funny how all the prophets always mention the rejection isn't it
Just wouldn't be official if men did anoint Yeshua I see now your reference John TB. The problem is the Father in Heaven recognized it and anointed Him.
Had they anointed Him and made him king wouldn't that have made all the OT prophets liers as well?
What a tangled web we weave.
Christ the Messiah is the one who confirmed a covenant with many for exactly a half a week. That is plain undeniable history. His two prophets continue the other half of the week by taking the water away from earth and tormenting those who dwell on earth as it says in revelation 11.
teleiosis
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Other than Dan 9:27 where stands that written? Nowhere. All you four and Retrobyter have are you five saying it!
Saying Dan 9:27 was "confirmed" by Jesus (because "confirm" is such a nice, positive word) in offering up an interpretation of Dan 9:27 and pointing to the three years of Jesus' Ministry is not proof. Give me the dates that Jesus was baptised and was crucified. Let's compare them and see if they come up to the exacting standards that each half has in the book of Revelaiton (1260 days - 42 months - three and a half years). (The seventy 'sevens' use prophetic years of 360 days each where each month is 30 days.)
Where are the Apostles proclaiming this great truth? Wouldn't Peter and John have something to say to the Jews if Jesus "strengthened" the Davidic Covenant? Wouldn't they plead with their fellow Jews as Paul wanted to (and did) that they had a limited-time offer at hand? Wouldn't Paul have used this in his arguments to sway his countrymen when he did return to Israel?
If this is such a big thing, and it is, and the Apostles were fairly liberal in saying OT prophecy concerning the Day of the Lord was being fulfilled - where is the proclamation of a limited-time, seven-year covenant with many being the fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens?'
It's not in the Bible. Now an omission is not a commission of an error, but without some bit of Scripture to say Jesus provided a limite-time seven-year covenant at the start of His Ministry when He did no such thing until the end - falls flat on its face.
gabar as an adjective means to be mighty, be strong, and carries with it the sense of war as in fighting or military. As a verb, it means to prevail, usually by strength or military might. It can be used for God in the positive as in "His strong arm" and it can be used for man in the negative as when a man stands up to God in defiance. In translation, since to prevail is a transitive verb, to be used with the object of a covenant, which is any agreement, treaty, covenant or contract between two or more individuals in the Hebrew, the idea of prevailing combined with military strength is best conveyed by the simple verb: to force. An excellent example of how an agreement can be forced with many was illustrated when the Israeli army forcibly evicted Israeli citizens from the homes and settlements in the Gaza Strip in accordance with the Roadmap. gabar carries more meaning in the Hebrew than just to strengthen. This is not unusual for Hebrew words which can carry multiple meanings at times.
Jesus did not use force, strength, or military might to die on the cross. He gave up His Life without any resistance.
And Retro: try as you might you are missing the key ingredient with all your green cut and paste: there is no covenant made by Jesus in announcing the Kingdom of God being at hand. Jesus never tells the Jews He is there to "strengthen" the Davidic Covenant. All the verses you have of that are in reference to David and the Covenant. You have not proved your case, any more than I accept your spelling, definitions, and grammar over the acknowledged experts in the field of Hebrew language and grammar today.
Denial is a very strong human motivation, and when you're in it, you can't see it.
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
God made a covenant with Israel to be a witness before Him, He chose this people to be both messengers and the fleshly vessels that salvation would be delivered threw. The 70 weeks is pointing to the time of the completion of the way for salvation, the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new where men no longer offered daily sacrifices, the day was coming when Jermaine 31:31 spoke of God teaching and dwelling in men.
The only limited part is the relationship the Jews had in the old covenant before God, this was of no value any longer and the NT speaks about it every where,
Because of His promise this completed package "the veil torn" was preformed by God threw His chosen vessels the Jews. Just as the parables say they were invited first and the finished work of Christ was placed before them. This is the finished work of salvation the table was set every Jew alive had been sent a personal invitation to come in and be seated. But the promise given to Abraham was not for the Jews alone but threw his seed all nations and peoples will also be invited "the gentiles" But no before the the Lord had sent out the "VIP" invitation first to that chosen people that suffered under the deliverance of the Host of the banquet His servants, This doesn't mean that salvation is closed to the Jews Paul writes about it in Romans 11. It simply means that many of them failed to SEE and HEAR and ACCEPT their invitation to be seated.
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
22 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: [sup]2 [/sup]“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, [sup]3 [/sup]and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. [sup]4 [/sup]Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ [sup]5 [/sup]But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. [sup]6 [/sup]And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. [sup]7 [/sup]But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [sup]8 [/sup]Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. [sup]9 [/sup]Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ [sup]10 [/sup]So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
[sup]11 [/sup]“But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. [sup]12 [/sup]So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. [sup]13 [/sup]Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[sup][a][/sup] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
[sup]14 [/sup]“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I find it hard to believe that some people that spend countless hours arguing about the finest details of revelation don't understand the gospel.
teleiosis
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Prophecy went on past Jesus' death and resurrection; the book of Revelation was written around A.D. 90-95 by most scholar's reckoning. People had visions in Acts and Paul writes about it in the Epistles.
Thus to seal up vision and prophecy hadn't happened with the first Advent and it hasn't happened as of today yet either.
Likewise, the anointing of the Most High is nebelous - it may refer to when death is defeated and all of the enemies of God are under His feet.
You STILL have not provided one firm bit of evidence to say that Jesus forced a covenant through His strength with many for a limited time.
Thus to seal up vision and prophecy hadn't happened with the first Advent and it hasn't happened as of today yet either.
Likewise, the anointing of the Most High is nebelous - it may refer to when death is defeated and all of the enemies of God are under His feet.
You STILL have not provided one firm bit of evidence to say that Jesus forced a covenant through His strength with many for a limited time.
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