The "HE" of Daniel 9:27

[Rex]

1. The Messiah will be put do death and will have nothing (cut off).

I like the ESV but here IMO it takes a bit of liberty by saying "shall have nothing".
In simple passive observation Jesus had everything 3 days after he was put to death.

In the same manner we know that He continued His ministry, to say He had nothing is simply biased selective language.
These people that teach dispensationalism have had over a hundred years of commentaries supporting their interpretation.
Read Matthew Henry's commentary on this passage. As well the KJV says "but not for Himself"

Just reading your sentence sounds like the parable of the vineyard owner. Kill the son that we might take his inheritance

1. The Messiah will be put do death and will have nothing (cut off).

Your other two points I addressed in 28
http://www.christian...27/#entry175010

Heres the word translated
cut off 3772------ESV ----------and shall have nothing -----5971 a people, specifically a tribe
cut off 3772------KJV and NKJV------- But not for himself----- 5971 a people, specifically a tribe

Notice the word covenant



#3772 כָּרַת karath {kaw-rath'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1048; v
1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate,
kill, cut a covenant
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to cut off
1a1a) to cut off a body part, behead
1a2) to cut down
1a3) to hew
1a4) to cut or make a covenant
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be cut off
1b2) to be cut down
1b3) to be chewed
1b4) to be cut off, fail
1c) (Pual)
1c1) to be cut off
1c2) to be cut down
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to cut off
1d2) to cut off, destroy
1d3) to cut down, destroy
1d4) to take away
1d5) to permit to perish
1e) (Hophal) cut off

 

[teleiosis]

Well you haven't addressed the points at all, but have defined karat as being the covenant seal it is by the shedding of blood. In this way, Jesus made the New Covenant of Faith in Him the test by which we could be reunited with the Father.

This happens after the sixty-two 'sevens.' So we can say that the conclusion of the sixty-two 'sevens' came before the crucifixion. Indeed, there is a timeline construct which goes from a decree, counting in prophetic years of 360 days each, which concludes the seven and sixty-two 'sevens' in early A.D. 31 which would translate to Jesus' arrival on the colt to cries of Hosanna!

Now the Temple is not the desolation you say it is when you try to say it is the end. First of all, war continued after the relatively minor Jewish Rebellion of A.D. 70. I say "minor" because what you want to say was the worst time ever happened during the Pax Romana. Nor was this rebellion the rebellion to end all rebellions; there was a second Jewish Rebellion in A.D. 132-135!

So war continues - A.D. 70 is not the end of man's time for rule on this earth; the statue of Nebuchadnezzar is still unbroken in the 21st century as it was in the 2nd and the 1st. And war still continues... except now we can identify the "North" and the "South" as being two cultures locked in world-wide conflict: the secular "North" of America, Russia, and Europe - versus - the "South" of Islam which is uniting not under Osama bin Laden, but the Muslim Brotherhood.

Desolations have been decreed. Those desolations have not come yet. They did not come with A.D. 70 because they were not poured out on the desolater. All A.D. 70 does is point to the source people for the "ruler who will come." That ruler is Roman in nature - he will come from the "North."

Desolation have been decreed. Where are those decrees stored? On the Scroll. Who can open the Scroll? Only the Lamb of God: Jesus. And with the sixth Seal, which Jesus has to break along with the seventh to open the Scroll, is the Day of the Lord. You can tell this by the signature miracle of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star sign. The Day of the Lord has not come yet. The Scroll has not yet been opened, but it will be opened after we are gathered up out of the Great Tribulation. Then the desolations will go forth - real physical, natural destruction of Biblical dimensions affecting the whole of the earth. The last desolations are poured out! And only at the end of the one 'seven' is the anti-Christ and the false prophet captured alive at Armageddon to meet their ultimate doom in Hell.

Even if you want to say that A.D. 70 is the end, you have a "gap" in Daniel 9:24-27. But A.D. 70 is not the "end." The end comes when the one 'seven' is finished, and that hasn't begun.

Jesus said when you SEE the abomination. This is a physical event which will be viewable. Furthermore Jesus said it would happen in the Holy Place. As that is defined in the Bible by God, that is IN the Temple, but in front of the curtain. The abomination is not rejection of Christ Jesus. Revelation reveals the abomination as being a talking image - which is an idol - of the anti-Christ. Idols ARE abominations in the Bible. Idols cannot speak. This one does. That is what makes it the abominationS. The plural in Hebrew can also show how great, or in the negative, how terrible a thing or person is.

Remember - war continues until the end. You cannot have the end without war ceasing to exist.
And that end also comes with the one 'seven's' "end" as well. Only when the anti-Christ is defeated can Christ's Millennium Kingdom with its peace begin.

That hasn't happened yet.
This isn't dispensationalism; it's just cold hard facts right out of the Bible and history.

 

[Rex]

Well you haven't addressed the points at all, but have defined karat as being the covenant seal it is by the shedding of blood. In this way, Jesus made the New Covenant of Faith in Him the test by which we could be reunited with the Father.

This happens after the sixty-two 'sevens.' So we can say that the conclusion of the sixty-two 'sevens' came before the crucifixion. Indeed, there is a timeline construct which goes from a decree, counting in prophetic years of 360 days each, which concludes the seven and sixty-two 'sevens' in early A.D. 31 which would translate to Jesus' arrival on the colt to cries of Hosanna!

Well you haven't addressed the points at all, but have defined karat as being the covenant seal

And you deny that the cross wasn't, the seal of the covenant, that Jesus "shall have nothing" as the ESV says? after this event?
Have you compared the NT with this understanding you have? It's in contrast to say the least.


There are several Ezra 7:7 457 BC + 483 = 27 AD

Now the Temple is not the desolation you say it is when you try to say it is the end

Daniel calls Gods sanctuary desolate as well, in ruin because they turned away. same as they did with Jesus. Dan 9:17-18

The end of temple sacrifices, it is desolate just as Jesus said, I really don't know what else to say about it. If the Jews were to build a temple today do you think God would honor it?Of course not Jesus also said you shall not see me until you say, blessed is He would comes in the name of the Lord.

The outline is "the completed work of Christ" Just as Gabriel said, the 70th week was completed and the wars have continued for 2000 years.
You are seeding what I have said with a preconceived concept preterisum. All I have been speaking of is one verse in particular. Notice Gabrael also said 70 weeks are hathak khaw-thak cut out to decree determine.


Gabriel is instructed by God to make Daniel understand, Dan 9:22 he made me understand. Dan 9:22 to give you skill and understanding.
This is not some cryptic message Dan 9:23 the intent is to therefore understand the matter and consider the vision.

I have attempted to do the same and in the simplest words offered an explanation, as well as the implications of miss understand this verse are huge.
People fight the truth about this verse simply because its so simple, and they have spent their who life looking for a future 7 year period of tribulation when the fact is the tribulation has been unfolding threw out history. They are smart enough to interpret years for days in Daniel but in Johns book Rev that is closly tied with Daniel they revert back to day = day to satisfy the missing 70th week which isn't missing it's been fulfilled right on the heals of the 69th just as Gabriel told Daniel 70 weeks are hathak khaw-thak cut out to decree determined. For you and your people. The new covenant the end of the old and the beginning of the new. Some particularly the leadership chose to keep the old

The rest here looks as though your interpreting what I said into a preterist view, though I ignored your use of the word above, I'm a historicist,

First of all, war continued after the relatively minor Jewish Rebellion of A.D. 70. I say "minor" because what you want to say was the worst time ever happened during the Pax Romana. Nor was this rebellion the rebellion to end all rebellions; there was a second Jewish Rebellion in A.D. 132-135!

So war continues - A.D. 70 is not the end of man's time for rule on this earth; the statue of Nebuchadnezzar is still unbroken in the 21st century as it was in the 2nd and the 1st. And war still continues... except now we can identify the "North" and the "South" as being two cultures locked in world-wide conflict: the secular "North" of America, Russia, and Europe - versus - the "South" of Islam which is uniting not under Osama bin Laden, but the Muslim Brotherhood.

Desolations have been decreed. Those desolations have not come yet. They did not come with A.D. 70 because they were not poured out on the desolater. All A.D. 70 does is point to the source people for the "ruler who will come." That ruler is Roman in nature - he will come from the "North."

Desolation have been decreed. Where are those decrees stored? On the Scroll. Who can open the Scroll? Only the Lamb of God: Jesus. And with the sixth Seal, which Jesus has to break along with the seventh to open the Scroll, is the Day of the Lord. You can tell this by the signature miracle of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star sign. The Day of the Lord has not come yet. The Scroll has not yet been opened, but it will be opened after we are gathered up out of the Great Tribulation. Then the desolations will go forth - real physical, natural destruction of Biblical dimensions affecting the whole of the earth. The last desolations are poured out! And only at the end of the one 'seven' is the anti-Christ and the false prophet captured alive at Armageddon to meet their ultimate doom in Hell.

Even if you want to say that A.D. 70 is the end, you have a "gap" in Daniel 9:24-27. But A.D. 70 is not the "end." The end comes when the one 'seven' is finished, and that hasn't begun.

Jesus said when you SEE the abomination. This is a physical event which will be viewable. Furthermore Jesus said it would happen in the Holy Place. As that is defined in the Bible by God, that is IN the Temple, but in front of the curtain. The abomination is not rejection of Christ Jesus. Revelation reveals the abomination as being a talking image - which is an idol - of the anti-Christ. Idols ARE abominations in the Bible. Idols cannot speak. This one does. That is what makes it the abominationS. The plural in Hebrew can also show how great, or in the negative, how terrible a thing or person is.

Remember - war continues until the end. You cannot have the end without war ceasing to exist.
And that end also comes with the one 'seven's' "end" as well. Only when the anti-Christ is defeated can Christ's Millennium Kingdom with its peace begin.

That hasn't happened yet.
This isn't dispensationalism; it's just cold hard facts right out of the Bible and history.

In this post I outlined the harlot that sits on the beast Chapter 13
The wilderness that the true believers were taken rev 12
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17103-the-he-of-daniel-927/page__st__30#entry175044

Can't you see the harlots 1260 years
and the beast 1260 years and the fatal wound in 1798
That has been healed

 

[teleiosis]

The cross is when Jesus was cut off, karat.
The shedding of blood, intrinsic with the word in Biblical overtones, also makes it a blood covenant.
His lineage was cut off too; there are no "heirs."

So while you quibble about the wording, it is entirely appropriate to apply it to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

And if this "sealed" the covenant, then the covenant could only be "confirmed" at the cross.
However, the word gabar does not carry all those "nice" overtones of "confirmation" which we read in the English.
Jesus did not use might nor strength, especially of a military nature. He did not "prevail" but gave up His Life.
The covenant was not "forced" with many. Christians "accept" salvation as a free gift.

So try as you might, you mix up the start and the midpoint. The fact is that Jesus NEVER made a limited-time, seven-year agreement with anyone.

As far as "desolate" is concerned, the adjective has more than one use. In this case it makes desolate - a verb. In the end of Daniel 9:27 it is a noun and most translations reflect the object of God's Wrath as a man because God's Wrath is not poured out on conditions, but on sentient beings. Furthermore, it is by the desolations that have been decreed that the end comes to the desolater who causes desolation when he sets up the abomiation.

So wringing your hand and crying about the Temple being desolate as in empty of God's Spirit hardly does the text justice.

Nor does it comport with the rest of the Bible which you so conveniently ignore.
Now you may call yourself a historist, but that is hardly the case eschatologically when you say it's all been done.
So while you want to warn people not to look for a future seven-year period of turmoil, war, oppression, tribulation, rapture and wrath - it's still all there waiting to be fulfilled.

The "he" of Dan 9:27 refers back to the last person mentioned: the ruler who will come - the anti-Christ, the King of the North, the little horn, the beast of a man, the man of lawlessness.

 

[Rex]

Thanks for the civil conversation on the subject
That in itself is rare.

 

[teleiosis]

Well we fervently disagree, but that doesn't make you or me a bad guy, a liar, a troll, a heretic, or any other such thing.
Christians can disagree on matters of eschatology and even theology without becoming un-Christian towards each other in their conduct.

For my part, it helps to try and understand the other guy's position, and for that I thank-you.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Well I see you have it figured out for yourself, but there are always these pesky little details from history and prophecy that dispel your figurative fulfillment and point to a yet unfulfilled literal series of events, and as Jesus, Paul, and John have conveyed the truth - and as even wilder "figurative" prophecy concerning the Servant Messiah had a literal fulfillment I Christ's first Advent, so too can what you call imaginary have a very real result!

Jesus conferred no Covenant at the start of His Ministry; He was not the abomination.

I found some verses for you to suggest that Yeshua` WAS the fulfillment of the covenant, i.e., the Davidic Covenant, even at the beginning of His "ministry":

First, there is the "dropping of the other shoe" in Psalm 89:

Psalm 89:20-52
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed (Yeshua`) also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed (Yeshua`) shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
(Here
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, LORD, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

This rejection of the Messiah is PRECISELY what they did when Yeshua` was here the first time! They "made void the covenant" of their servant, and they "profaned his crown by casting it to the ground!"

Also, consider Malachi 3:1-6:

Malachi 3:1-6
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap (Hebrew: uwkhVoriyt = "and-like-soap," but "Voriyt" - "soap" - is spelled the same way as "briyt," bet(vet)-reish-yod-tav, meaning "covenant!"):
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers (drug pushers), and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob (all of the children of Isra'el) are not consumed.
KJV

So, YES! Yeshua` DID "confer," or rather, STRENGTHENED the Davidic Covenant at the start of His Ministry!

Abomination refers to idol worship, not rejection of God.

ONLY in your mind, bro! The Hebrew word translated "abominations," "shiquwtsiym," is BROADER in its meaning than that! It CAN refer to idol worship because idol worship surely is an "abomination," but so are OTHER THINGS, PARTICULARLY the rejection of God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON!

The "he" of gabar refers back to the ruler who will come. That is the King of the North.

No, "gabar" does NOT refer back to the "ruler who will come." It refers back to the "Messiah," "Maashiyach," in verse 26! And the word is technically not "gabar"; it is "vhigbiyr," which conveys the connective "v-," the tense of the verb, and the person and number of the subject of that verb.

I will continue to say it to you until you understand, but "[the] prince that shall come," "naagiyd habaa'," are words that are SECONDARY words in the Hebrew noun construct state that do NOT have subject strength in the sentence. In translation, they become nouns or noun phrases that are the OBJECT of the preposition "OF," which ALSO doesn't have subject strength in the sentence! The complete phrase is "`am naagiyd habaa'," translated as "the people OF the prince that shall come." Thus, unless the words are REPEATED in the next sentence, they CANNOT BE THE SUBJECT of the verbs in the next sentence, especially since the next sentence STARTS with the verb! The only other word that has the right person, number and gender to be the subject of the starting verb of the next sentence is "Maashiyach."

Rev 11 speaks of a temple, and Jesus said the abomination was associated with the "Holy Place."
Paul said the man of lawlessness would be in the Temple too.

YES, and although Yeshua` was talking about the destruction of the SECOND Temple, there will be a THIRD!

Rev 13 describes the rise of a beast of a man ruling for half of the one 'seven'.
After that, the false prophet erects a talking image of the man - an idol unlike any ib history.
With this great abomination, two laws go into effect which make the Great Tribulation so terrible.
Jesus said this would follow the midpoint and after it would come the Day of the Lord and the gathering..

With most of this, I agree, except for two points: First, we are NOT told that the beast rules for half of the one 'seven'; we are told that he rules for forty-two months, which is not precisely 7/2 = 3.5 years. It's almost 40 days short!

Second, Yeshua did NOT say that the "Day of the Lord and the gathering" would "follow the midpoint," although almost 2,000 years is CERTAINLY "following!"

Likewise in Rev 14, the Harvest follows the talking image and its two laws.

So your Preterist leanings do not match up, but a futuristic, literal fulfillment remains possible.

But, in all honesty, you must ALSO admit that there are some things that Yeshua` predicted in the Olivet Discourse that WERE fulfilled in the first century since the Messiah's birth! It is neither strictly Preterist nor is it strictly Futurist! Yeshua` warned His immediate students (and their proteges through them) of the impending judgment resulting in the destruction of the Temple and the current Diaspora. For almost 2,000 years, the "tribulation" that Yeshua` was talking about HAS BEEN GOING ON! The "tribulation period" DOES NOT EQUAL the "seventieth Seven" of Dani'el 9! And, the fact that Yeshua` said,...

Matthew 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Mark 13:20
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

... does NOT mean that he shortens the time period but rather that he reduces the NUMBER of days of "tribulation" WITHIN that time period!

 

[teleiosis]

Jesus did not confer, state, press, force, prevail, confirm, affirm, inject, reaffirm, re-state, cajole, joke about, mention, or otherwise make ANY limited-time, seven-year contract, agreement, covenant, or treaty at the start of His Ministry.

I don't know how to state this any stronger... all verses describing David aside.

The time of Great Tribulation IS shortened - abruptly too - like the docking of an animal's tail, when the Day of the Lord comes.

So for how many days the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect is not known, but Jesus mentions the abomination that causes desolation and then the next event He mentions is the Great Tribulation. Immediately after those days, the sun/moon/event occurs. And this all happens within a generation; it is not stretched out over 2000 years.

The Great Tribulation is unequaled in its terribleness. I don't know firsthand, but I think the 1830's were pretty sanguine.

 

[Rex]

The Great Tribulation is unequaled in its terribleness. I don't know firsthand, but I think the 1830's were pretty sanguine.

If what I said about the beast is true, One of its heads seamed to have a deadly wound 1798, but its mortal wound was healed.
Then is it any wonder we see in the early 1800's the rise of Darby's dispensationalism that has totally infected western Christianity.
We see alot in the 1800, Joseph Smith, the Adventist great disappointment, Charles Tas Russel founder of Jehovah Witness, pyramid revolutionist .The Catholic church got in on the act as well.

One of the most telling dogmas about Marys nature.

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
http://www.newadvent...then/07674d.htm

Long story short it was hardly an uneventful century. In the 1900's during WWI all the bloodlines of kings lost their throne and were replaced with forms of Governments. If you know what it is your looking for the writing is on the wall.

Daniel 7
[sup]23 [/sup]“Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
[sup]24 [/sup]The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
[sup]25 [/sup]He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[sup][d][/sup] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

Dan 2:43 seed of men, marriage of the kings blood line rather funny isn't it that our presidents share the same.

 

[teleiosis]

I have no idea what you're talking about with 1798. I am no fan of year counting and mathematical equations. Like the book, "88 Reasons the Rapture happens in 1988," it was followed by its sequel in 1989... they're all bust.

Now I do make something of the Industrial Revolution, and I note the 20th century to be more bloody than all the centuries before it - but as far as "heads" of the Roman Empire, I think they appear over time. Hitler would qualify for an evil head, perhaps Napolean too. But as to the other three, they'd all be guesses too, but I'd have to guess a Caesar or two would make the list.

The sixth "head," the one that "is" at the time of the end, is the anti-Christ. The seventh, who doesn't last long, comes with the rebellion against God's Camp at Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Rex]

I have no idea what you're talking about with 1798. I am no fan of year counting and mathematical equations. Like the book, "88 Reasons the Rapture happens in 1988," it was followed by its sequel in 1989... they're all bust.

I can see that, but you your self counted years

This happens after the sixty-two 'sevens.' So we can say that the conclusion of the sixty-two 'sevens' came before the crucifixion. Indeed, there is a timeline construct which goes from a decree, counting in prophetic years of 360 days each, which concludes the seven and sixty-two 'sevens' in early A.D. 31 which would translate to Jesus' arrival on the colt to cries of Hosanna!

So its not a matter of year counting and dates its a matter of how its done.
Gabriel apparently believed Daniel had enough basic math skills to understand the time of the Messiah.
As well as the discernment to know when He was anointed Messiah Mark 1:15

 

[teleiosis]

There are several decrees, and various methods of counting. I can find one combination which points to A.D. 31, others miss the mark somewhat, and another combination yields a time around Jesus' birth that the magi might have used.

However, year counting beyond Hosea 6:1-2 is meaningless. However, there is something special about this time because of it. The time is ripe for events to unfold in literal fashion. Today, as in the last thirty years or so, the world map has changed so that we have a "North" and a "South," and they are locked in a world-wide conflict in which the South has attacked the North and the North has sent out its fleet of ships to invade the South. Things are afoot as Holmes would say.
________________________________________

Now going back a post:

The ten horns of Daniel are explained in Revelation. They are ten kings who do have a Kingdom. They become "Kings" when the fourth terrible beast comes into being. The fourth terrible beast of a nation (which is also described as a dragon and is imbued with an evil spirit) is also shown to be made up of the three previous beasts of Daniel 7.

The beast which makes up its "body" is the leopard. As its power, it was given the "authority to rule" and I noted in 2003 that the EU Constitution, unlike the US Constitution which limits government power, spelled out all that the government had authority to do in broad strokes. The EU is also constituted by a ruling body of 12 Ministers presiding over its many nation-state members. So too, I think the fourth terrible beast will not be a conglomeration of ten nations, but a federation of three superpowers. These superpowers make up the fourth terrible beast and a union of America, Russia, and the EU would form a ring of land in the northern half of the Northern Hemisphere.

These still semii-autonomous states would have a ten Minister council appointed to oversee and coordinate the parts of the beast that they comprise. The anti-Christ rises up within the power structure supporting the ten Ministers, "hamstrining" three and "governing" them. It is the anti-Christ who then consummates the Roadmap which has been working all along, "forcing" Israel, for instance, to use its military to expel Israeli citizens from their homes in the Gaza Strip so that it could be handed over to the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Rex]

I really don't see the need to rehash, its been said, whether you read it or considered it? it seams that you don't recall what has already been said.

There are several Ezra 7:7 457 BC + 483 = 27 AD


Daniel calls Gods sanctuary desolate as well, in ruin because they turned away. same as they did with Jesus. Dan 9:17-18

My first reply to your post this morning was to point out that you make a strawman, by accusing me of what you yourself do.

To point is we have come to different conclusions. Enough said

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

Jesus did not confer, state, press, force, prevail, confirm, affirm, inject, reaffirm, re-state, cajole, joke about, mention, or otherwise make ANY limited-time, seven-year contract, agreement, covenant, or treaty at the start of His Ministry.

I don't know how to state this any stronger... all verses describing David aside.

(LOL! Use the word "gabar" or "gavar" which means to STRENGTHEN!) Look, do you think that David started out, PLANNING to reign in Hevron (Hebron) for 7.5 years before he was accepted by all of Isra'el and moved to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) for the rest of his 40-year reign? If not, then what makes you think that Yeshua` PLANNED to reign as King of the Jews for only 7 years?! He was offering Himself to reign over Isra'el FOREVER! He was rejected completely after 3.5 years, regardless how He taught them, encouraged them, and performed miracles among them, validating His offer as legitimate by His Father's power!

Look at the prophecy carefully:

Dani'el 9:27
27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaavuwa` echad
vachatsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchaah
v`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem
v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al shomeem.

The first line states "and-shall-strengthen a-covenant with-many Seven one." Where is the word "for" there? It is NOT THERE! It's not that "Yeshua` makes a seven-year contract"; it's that "Yeshua` makes a contract that HAPPENS to be for seven years!" It's part of the PROPHECY that it turns out to be seven years; not a part of Yeshua`s offer!

The time of Great Tribulation IS shortened - abruptly too - like the docking of an animal's tail, when the Day of the Lord comes.

So for how many days the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect is not known, but Jesus mentions the abomination that causes desolation and then the next event He mentions is the Great Tribulation. Immediately after those days, the sun/moon/event occurs. And this all happens within a generation; it is not stretched out over 2000 years.

"Within a generation"? Now you're sounding like a Preterist! PROVE IT!

The Great Tribulation is unequaled in its terribleness. I don't know firsthand, but I think the 1830's were pretty sanguine.

Seriously? Europe was a MESS during the 1830s! The July Revolution in France, the Belgian Revolution in the Low Countries, and the November Uprising against Russian rule in Poland all happened in 1830 alone! The Ottoman Empire was still in power although Greece had their War of Independance then, and the Jews, although valued for their roles as financiers and doctors, were in the middle of it all!

Here in the USA, Jackson signed the Indian Removal Act which "negotiated with" (forced) the Indians off their lands in the South to move west of the Mississippi River. This was STRICTLY on race, and it didn't matter if the "Indian" was a believer or not! In many respects, "Indian" believers were LESS likely to be treated well because of mistrust! Furthermore, the Book of Mormon was published in those years!

"Sanguine"? Maybe not.

I'm not just talking about Jewish persecution; I'm talking about ALL who could be part of the Messiah's Kingdom! That includes all Isra'elites (including the Jews) and Gentile believers, as well! How was the Christian persecution during the 1830s, here or abroad?

 

[teleiosis]

! It's not that "Yeshua` makes a seven-year contract"; it's that "Yeshua` makes a contract that HAPPENS to be for seven years!" It's part of the PROPHECY that it turns out to be seven years; not a part of Yeshua`s offer!

It's also NEVER declared in the Gospel or the Epistles.

Nowhere can you show me that Jesus makes, prevails, forces, especially by might, ANY covenant, agreement, contract, or treaty at the start of His Ministry in the first Advent!

Paul doesn't talk about it; Peter doesn't mention it. However John writes about the two halves in the book of Revelation - and guess what?
They haven't happened yet!

Saying Daniel 9:27 shows that Jesus strengthened the Davidic covenant to prove who the "he" of gabar (to prevail) was - is a circular argument.

If starting the one 'seven' is so important, and Jesus did it; then where is it written that He did it when the Apostles offered the Good News of Jesus?

 

[Rex]

Proverbs 25:2

If starting the one 'seven' is so important, and Jesus did it; then where is it written that He did it when the Apostles offered the Good News of Jesus?

Mark 1:15

 

[teleiosis]

That's the Kingdom of God "at hand," - not a covenant agreement whereby God will do this or that if we perform some act or fail to perform some act.

Mk 1:15 is NOT a covenant. Jesus does not promise anything when He proclaims the Good News. That promise is only made at the end of His Ministry at the Last Supper.

Proverbs 25:2 can be applied to what I'm saying too.

 

[Rex]

In plan English the covenant comes in the mids of the week.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; - The confirmation of the promise to the Jews EXCLUSIVELY confirmed the 70th week
But in the middle of the week --------------------------------------He confirmed the New covenant
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.---------temple veil torn
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,-------see Retorbyters statement concerning this person"s"/ time/event its much better than mine.
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This promise for you and your people as Gabrael said, culminated on the 70th week starting with Mark 1:15 middle of the week Matthew 26:28 this EXCLUSIVE promise fulfilled was for the the Jews first for 7 years and then the Gentiles, Acts 9:15 And God appeared to Mosses in a burning bush Ex 3:6 the story repletes If you will the closing of the promise to the Jews now complete goes to the gentiles. Acts 9:3-5 and the gift from the Jews is poured out.

Acts 10
[sup]44 [/sup]While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. [sup]45 [/sup]And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. [sup]46 [/sup]For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Acts 11:15 Peter says, The Holy Spirit fell on then JUST AS ON US at the beginning.

Mission accomplished

 

[teleiosis]

No, the covenant is for one 'seven.' In order to have the covenant, you have to have the quid pro quo promise exchange: you do this - and I'll do that. This is then sealed by an oath, signatures, a seal, or best yet: blood - which gets WAY BACK to the original meaning of to "cut a deal" which was a blood oath. This then reflects back to karat which carries the overtones of cutting a deal.

The crucifixion of Christ comes within a day of the New Covenant agreement Jesus sets forth at the Last Supper. It is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that provides a ransom for many. It is not at the beginning of His Ministry that Jesus makes this covenant - which is not forced by might or strength on anyone. This Covenant is not limited in time to anyone either; it persists to this day.

Either Jesus made a limited-time seven-year covenant at the beginning of His Ministry or He did not. There is nothing besides the verse in question to ever say that Jesus made a limited-time, seven-year covenant with anyone ever.

So like I said, you have to mix the midpoint with the start of the one 'seven' to say that Jesus' New Covenant - which He made by laying down His life in total surrender and by the power of God the Father who gave Him the authority to lay His Life down and pick it back up again - is the beginning of the one 'seven.'

You literally have nothing to stand on to support your interpretation. Showing time and time again has not persuaded a single one of you; you are locked into your thinking despite all language and argument to the contrary.

I have to study for my recurrent training in December. It is better for me to go over all the emergency procedures, limitations, and the proper litany for engine failures on take-off and the like which I don't do on a regular basis flying the line, than to spend hours here arguing with people who cannot afford to change their thinking.

 

[Rex]

All I can say is I marvel at the wisdom of God.

Much more important business at hand I understand

I have to study for my recurrent training in December. It is better for me to go over all the emergency procedures, limitations, and the proper litany for engine failures on take-off and the like which I don't do on a regular basis flying the line, than to spend hours here arguing with people who cannot afford to change their thinking.