The Holy Spirit is HE

[justbyfaith]

You have not yet quoted what you have read from the excerpt and shown how it is "in disregard of the faithful interpretations of Scripture" and is like "gnostic writings" which is what you claimed you can do. Please do so.

I don't really want to read that writing in the first place. It seems like you are trying to egg me on so that I will go back and read that writing.

But I say to you truly that I do not want to be deceived by it; so I am not going to read it.

Gnosticism proclaims that Jesus didn't come in the flesh.

When did Jesus speak to this woman? Was He in the flesh when He gave forth the words that she attributes to Him?

If not, then she is purporting a gnostic doctrine simply by saying that He spoke to her.

If so, then she is saying that He has already come back and is, perhaps, hiding in the secret chambers of some high-rise somewhere until the moment comes that He can be revealed to the world. This is a perfect set-up for the Antichrist to come in saying he is Jesus Christ.

Mat 24:23, Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24, For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25, Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26, Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27, For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am asking you to substantiate your claims. You said you read part of the excerpt. You have yet to quote the part of the excerpt you claimed to have read and show how it is "in disregard of the faithful interpretations of Scripture" and is like "gnostic writings."

Because I don't want to give credence to any of what you have posted, I will decline from quoting any part of the excerpt in question.

 

[justbyfaith]

Translation: "I cannot substantiate my claims."

Not.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you could substantiate your claims you would have.

I don't know everything that is written by this woman friend of yours and I do not really want to know.

It is not that I would not be able to substantiate my claims if I were to take the time and effort to do so; it is that I do not desire to put forth the time and effort to do so.

If you want to keep posting what this woman says are the words of Jesus, that is on you. I don't trust it as far as I can throw it. That's just my gut reaction to the whole thing. If she is a deceiver then you may have even been deceived by her.

As for me, I will stick to the kjv of the Holy Bible and will not depart from the reality of a fundamentalist pov. That is where I find safety and rest.

If you want to go beyond the Bible and listen to extra-biblical sources, be my guest.

My only advice to you would be that you know the Bible itself really well before trusting other sources to tell you what Jesus has said.

I believe that the Bible is all-sufficient.

And I believe that it also is the word of the Lord to us and that it is the standard by which we ought to consider all other claims of truth. Through the Bible we can know whether any other claim of truth is faithful or a lie. However, in order to do that, we must spend years studying the Bible in order to get a clear understanding of its message.

As I said before, the best way of determining a counterfeit is if you are trained by the fact that you handle real money all day long.

Therefore, I would forget about Maria Vallorta if I were you and start reading what we know to be the word of God...the kjv of the Holy Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you should not make claims you do not intend to substantiate. Otherwise, you look like you cannot and/or are lazy.

I made those claims in order to protect others from being deceived; and in order that I might not be deceived, I do not delve further into the material by which I might be deceived if I were to look further into it.

 

[justbyfaith]

You can come up with whatever excuses and change them as much as you want. In the end, you made claims you refuse to substantiate. Therefore, you look like you cannot and/or are lazy.

I don't really care what I may look like to other people...because I know that I can and that I am not being lazy.

I refuse to even look at these things that you have posted because I seek to set an example for others that they might follow it, in obeying Proverbs 19:27 (kjv).

 

[justbyfaith]

I know you do not care. That is the problem. Furthermore, merely claiming you can substantiate your claims and claiming that you are not lazy will mean nothing when you have not demonstrated the truth in either of those statements. You should care about how people view you since you are trying to get them to read your own writings that you have posted.

What other people think about me is not as important to me as what the Lord thinks of me. Therefore my conscience is not bothered if someone other than the Lord thinks ill of me...what matters is the truth.

You can think of me as lazy and that does not mean that I am lazy. The Lord and I both know the truth of the matter and that is all that matters in the long run.

And also, in saying these things, I am proclaiming to you that your opinion of me as lazy does not in fact mean that I am lazy...for both the Lord and I know the truth of the matter....which is that I am not being lazy but am setting forth an example, that men ought to obey Proverbs 19:27 (kjv) when dealing with extrabiblical documents. I am saying that it is expedient for you to know your Bible extremely well before delving into such things.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is a debate forum not a blog. If you are going to make claims then you should be expected and prepared to substantiate them. Otherwise, you look like you cannot and/or are lazy, as well as a hypocrite if you expect others to substantiate their claims. If you do not intend to substantiate a claim then you should not make it in the first place.

Well, maybe you should substantiate your claim that the words of Maria Vallorta are the words of Christ.

Is not the burden of proof on you here?

 

[justbyfaith]

Burden of proof is on anyone making a claim. You refuse to substantiate your claims but say I should. That makes you not only look like you cannot substantiate yours and/or are lazy, but also a hypocrite.

Regarding Maria Valtorta's writings, I first want to ask, what proof do you have for the Bible being from God?

The fact that you would even ask such a question indicates to me that you have been deceived somewhere along the line (perhpas by Maria Vallorta's writings).

I am not being a hypocrite here...I am setting an example for people to follow concerning extrabiblical writings, as concerning Proverbs 19:27 (kjv).

I could substantiate my claims if I had access to all of Maria Vallorta's writings and/or if I wanted to even read those writings and sift through them in order to point out what is faulty about them. However, would I not then be seen as nitpicking and being overly critical?

I would encourage you to get to know your Bible really well before going to extrabiblical sources in order to find the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Therefore, again, what proof convinced you the Bible is from God?

There is internal evidence, external evidence, and archaeological evidence that the Bible is the word of the Lord.

If nothing else, I believe that it is the word of God in that it testifies to the historical fact of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection and also declares the meaning of those events for our spiritual life today.

You saying I should substantiate a claim, but refusing to substantiate your own, and refusing to read all of Maria Valtorta's writings (even though I never asked you to read all of them), but angrily rebuking those who refuse to read yours, are definitions of a hypocrite.

Where have I angrily rebuked those who refuse to read my writings?

If you are talking about what I wrote in the thread that contains my writings, know that I wrote those things over a year ago and that I am not the same person now as I was back then.

You said you read an excerpt (#36) from Maria Valtorta's writings in part. If you could show how what you did read is "in disregard of the faithful interpretations of Scripture" and like "gnostic writings" then you would, especially if you understand you are on a debate forum. Furthermore, if you truly feel it is your duty to protect others from these "unGodly" writings, then that is even more reason to substantiate your claims.

All I'm saying is that if you want to be able to properly discern counterfeit money, your best bet is to handle real money all day long.

For this reason, my exhortation to all is that they not read Maria Vallorta's writings until and unless they have a solid handle on what the Bible teaches and know it better than the back of their hands. In this way, if you come across anything deceptive in the writings in question, it will be more easily discernible.

Therefore I say to you, suspend your desire to read anything that might be extrabiblical until you know your Bible backwards and forwards. It is only in this that you will be safeguarded against being deceived by things that may claim to have authority from God, but which are intended to undermine the message of what the Bible teaches and would have you know.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is also archaeological evidence to support Maria Valtorta's writings come from God as well. She even wrote information she could not have known at the time and later proven to be true after her death, etc. What are examples of "internal" and "external" evidence?

Can you elaborate on this? What is the archaeological evidence for Maria Vallorta's writings?

An example of internal evidence might be the fact that prophecies were made that came to pass; and the probability that all of them might come to pass was something like 1 in 10 to the 52nd power....that's a 1 with 52 zeroes after it a the bottom of the fraction.

Do the writings of Maria Vallorta have similar prophecies?

If so, I would be interested in seeing those specific writings.

I have no reason to believe at this time that you have changed much from a year ago. Do you still believe that anyone being critical of your work will face judgment from God for turning others away from the truth? Also, even if you are different, you are still hypocritical for wanting others to read your writings but refusing to read others, and saying I should substantiate a claim, but refusing to substantiate your own.

Where did I ever say that people critical of my work will face judgment from God for turning others away from the truth (please us the quote feature)?

I think that at the very most, I said that I felt that if someone tried to discourage someone from reading my work, that they would face the chastening of the Lord for that they kept that person from being blessed by what I had written.

And yes, I have changed my mind about that. If someone is not willing to read my work for any reason, it may only just be that it is not the time for them to be blessed by the work that I had written.

What I say about the writings of Maria Vallorta I also will say about my writing....get to know your Bible well before reading what I have written.

You are assuming that I do not know the Bible "backwards and forwards" or well enough to read Maria Valtorta and be able to discern whether or not her work comes from God, just like you assumed I believe whatever I read. What do you say to someone who does know the Bible well and goes on to read the writings of Maria Valtorta and claims to know they come from God?

For you to know your Bible well enough to discern whether the writings of others are deceptive or not, you would have to have studied your Bible for a period of about forty years and gleaned from it everything possible in the context of that period of time.

If you know that these writings are from God because of knowing your Bible well and you do not see any contradiction between her writings and what the Bible teaches, then more power to you.

As for me, I have only been studying my Bible faithfully for about 30 years; so I am not going to presume that I can read her writings and will be able to discern whether or not they are from the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am confused. You said you refuse to read her writings?

If there is internal evidence that shows that there are prophetic utterances made by her that have come to pass, I am willing to look at that evidence.

Why do you suddenly approve of me continuing reading writings when you have presumed them to be deceptive, have advised me to stop, and are trying to protect others from being deceived by them?

Only if you know them to be faithful and true because you have found that there is nothing in them that is contrary to holy scripture.

The fact that I do not desire to take the time to scrutinize her writings does not mean that you should not scrutinize them by the word of the Lord.

If, in fact, you have found that her writings bear no contradiction to holy scripture, and if all of her writings teach what is already taught by holy scripture, then by all means believe in them at your discretion.

But for the sake of those who do not have a good handle on what the scriptures teach, I would say to them that they ought not to read extrabiblical writings until and unless they have an excellent handle on what is taught by holy scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

You claimed you did not need to look into or read Maria Valtorta's writings in order to attempt to discern they are not of God and presumed they are not without reading them in full, as well as claimed you have in fact written down words given to you by the Holy Ghost. Therefore, why are you suddenly presenting yourself as currently unqualified to discern?

Being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write something is something slightly different from having discernment about things that have been written by others.

 

[Sabertooth]

I came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father and Son are roles of Him.
I don't quite understand it, but that's the only answer there is.

That position is very similar to the Oneness doctrine.

I don't think that God expects us to fully grasp His One-or-Three-ness (in this life), just to come to Him/s in faith.

 

[Angelina]

That position is very similar to the Oneness doctrine.

I don't think that God expects us to fully grasp His One-or-Three-ness (in this life), just to come to Him/s in faith.

Totally agree with you @Sabertooth. It's "6 of one and half a dozen of the other". I trust God with all his hat wearing and just call him/them, God

 

[Sabertooth]

It's "6 of one and half a dozen of the other".

Or four, Each...?

 

[justbyfaith]

You said "the devil will often say things that are right on the money in order to gain your confidence; and then, when you least expect it, he throws in a lie because he knows that he has your confidence" and that you refuse to delve further into her writings to protect yourself and others from being deceived. Why are you suddenly open to the possibility Maria Valtorta's writings are from God?

If she has in fact prophesied things with a 100% accuracy, I believe that that is something that only God can do. Has she? If she hasn't, then I am not open to the idea that her writings are from the Lord. But if she has, that would indicate to me the possibility that they are.

But to what purpose? What is special about her message that we do not understand when we read our Bibles?

And if it is a message that is not found in the Bible, she had better have some kinf of prophetic back-up to substantiate that her writings are from the Lord.

If her message is biblical, then it is not really needed if we can get the same message from reading the Bible.

But I can see how someone might read her writings when they are not open to the Bible; so there may be a usefulness to the work that she has set forth.

Regardless of my opinion on Maria Valtorta's writings, why do you approve of my reading them when you claim they are not of God, have told me to stop reading, and are trying to protect yourself and others from being deceived by them?

I have merely attempted to tell people that it is safer to read the Bible alone and not extrabiblical writings. While extrabiblical writings may indeed contain the message of the Bible, it is not necessary to read them if you can get the same message from the Bible.

You claimed you did not even need to look into or read Maria Valtorta's writings in order to attempt to discern they are not of God and presumed they are not without reading them in full. Therefore, why are you suddenly presenting yourself as currently unqualified to discern them? How can you trust your judgment on Valtorta's writings when you have not met your standard required amount of time of bible study in order to properly discern extra-biblical writings as being from God?

I am merely saying that I, personally, do not want to read her writings because I am content to read my Bible and receive the message from the Bible that I might receive from Maria Vallorta's writings if her message is biblical. I do not trust out of hand any writing that claims to be the words of Jesus unless that writing is already a part of what we find in the closed canon of holy scripture. Thus, even though I am unqualified to discern them, I think that you can see that I am taking the safer road in that I do not want to subject myself to them in the case that they might not truly be of the Lord.

(If you have determined that they are definitely of the Lord because you have found that nothing in them contradicts holy scripture, then more power to you!)

I believe that the holy scriptures are all-sufficient; and that therefore her writings are not needed in order to have the unadulterated message that God wants people to have.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why do you suddenly approve of my reading Maria Valtorta's writings when you claim they are not from God, are Gnostic in nature, and have told me to stop reading them because I will receive the lies of the devil?

If in her writings , there is nothing in holy scripture that contradicts them, then I may have been wrong on the subject; her writings may indeed be from God.

However, I would say that one would have to be well-versed in the holy scriptures to be able to discern whether her writings are completely from the Lord or not.

If by all of this arguing, you are attempting to coerce me into reading more of her writings, I am now game.

Does she have a website where I can find all of her writings and subject them to the scrutiny of what the Bible says?

In fact, I require it of you to provide a link to this website.

While I have better things to do than to scrutinize her writings (it is easier to discount them out of hand), you have challenged me.

So, I can take a look at what she has written with my 30 years of experience in studying the Bible, and can pray that I will not be deceived by any of it as I seek to blow it out of the water.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here lets keep this real simple . DONT follow new age peroid . Even the jesus they preach is just another jesus . AINT the real one .

 

[justbyfaith]

The living God is not mute. Therefore, there are legit revelations from Him in the modern-day.

The holy scriptures (the closed canon of holy scripture) are all-sufficient...nothing more is needed for life and godliness but what we have in the closed canon of holy scripture.