The Holy Spirit

[ChristisGod]

God (theos) is the Father and Jesus is the Son. Two different people.

That would be the incorrect answer revealing you are not objective and your bias is dictating your conclusion. In Theology proper we call this eisegesis (reading your ideas into the text) whereas I will demonstrate exegesis( allowing the text to determine my ideas).

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if you want to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then you must deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise you are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive you have an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

What happened to @An Apologetic Sheepdog ?

Are you searching the internet for an answer ?

 

[Ancient]

Yes and also ponder that they have 2 different meanings and applications- neither are direct and linear

Ruach - Spirit, wind, breath etc etc appear 363 times in the OT. Qodesh - Holy, set apart, etc is found 548 times in the OT.

The Hebrew word Ruach directly connected with YHWH is found well over 100 times. So over 30% the word ruach is found in the OT directly connected to YHWH. Yes I looked up each occurrence in the OT. The Spirit of the LORD, breath of God, wind of God are all synonymous terms. Spirit of the LORD is the Holy Spirit. Yes there are other applications the other around 70% in the OT.

Yes I have pondered the different applications. Which is not the point I was making in my initial reply. My point was pointing out to those other interested people in this thread that the Holy Spirit is found all through the OT. Just because in our English translations with the English phrase "Holy Spirit" is only found 3 times in the OT does not mean the Holy Spirit was not present, as many others on this thread have pointed out. Spirit of the LORD in English is everywhere. Spirit of the Lord is the Holy Spirit. Praise Yah.

Shalom Friend

 

[Truman]

Ruach - Spirit, wind, breath etc etc appear 363 times in the OT. Qodesh - Holy, set apart, etc is found 548 times in the OT.

The Hebrew word Ruach directly connected with YHWH is found well over 100 times. So over 30% the word ruach is found in the OT directly connected to YHWH. Yes I looked up each occurrence in the OT. The Spirit of the LORD, breath of God, wind of God are all synonymous terms. Spirit of the LORD is the Holy Spirit. Yes there are other applications the other around 70% in the OT.

Yes I have pondered the different applications. Which is not the point I was making in my initial reply. My point was pointing out to those other interested people in this thread that the Holy Spirit is found all through the OT. Just because in our English translations with the English phrase "Holy Spirit" is only found 3 times in the OT does not mean the Holy Spirit was not present, as many others on this thread have pointed out. Spirit of the LORD in English is everywhere. Spirit of the Lord is the Holy Spirit. Praise Yah.

Shalom Friend

Ancient...that's what my son calls me! I call him Mr. Mouthy. Lol

 

[Truman]

He was still with God, as was Jesus.

Elohim..."Let us make man in our image." Genesis 1:26

 

[Truman]

"Verwirf mich nicht von deinem Angesicht und nimm deinen heiligen Geist nicht von mir." Psalm 51:11 [Martin Luther]

"Heiligen Geist = Holy Ghost"

Easy for you to say. Lol

 

[Truman]

He came to indwell the church at Pentecost; in Psalm 51 David prays 'and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me', although now the Holy Spirit is indeed promised to be with us.

The gift of the Spirit was given to the gentiles. Praise God!

 

[Truman]

you may think i m harsh
- i m not
i want you to escape

There's no way out of here, when you come in, you're in for good! Lol Just joking.
Jesus came to set the captives free.

 

[Truman]

There are two basic views on the subject among Bible-believing Christians. There are those who believe the Holy Spirit did not work in the same manner during the Old Testament age as He does today. Although it has been the same Holy Spirit all along, His methods have changed from age to age. They contend that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not universal to every believer, but was available only to certain believers. Those who hold this view Israel and the New Testament church as two distinct entities.

Another view sees the Holy Spirit indwelling believers from the beginning. It is contended that no one could obey the Lord’s commandments without the leading of the Holy Spirit. Those who hold this view tend to view Israel and the New Testament church as one continuous entity – but this is not always the case. Not all of those who hold this view agree as to the extent to which Old Testament believers experienced the ministry of the Holy Spirit. However they all agree that the Holy Spirit indwelt all Old Testament believers.

The knowledge of God often extends beyond our capability to comprehend.
Awesome beyond words is He!

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Are you searching the internet for an answer ?

no, just have more important things to do at times

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

So if you want to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then you must deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise you are being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive you have an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

You obviously cannot read English any better than you read Greek ( or comprehend what you read)

Jesus is "God" but he is NOT God "the father" ( the supreme)

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Yes I have pondered the different applications. Which is not the point I was making in my initial reply. My point was pointing out to those other interested people in this thread that the Holy Spirit is found all through the OT. Just because in our English translations with the English phrase "Holy Spirit" is only found 3 times in the OT does not mean the Holy Spirit was not present, as many others on this thread have pointed out. Spirit of the LORD in English is everywhere. Spirit of the Lord is the Holy Spirit. Praise Yah.

If the HS was "present" (hair splitting here on the 2 different definitions) then why did Jesus make a point to say it couldn't come ( wasn't here) until He left? (If he was already here)

Why also no Pentecost or other Spiritual gifts prior?

They are 2 different things with 2 different meanings

 

[Ancient]

If the HS was "present" (hair splitting here on the 2 different definitions) then why did Jesus make a point to say it couldn't come ( wasn't here) until He left? (If he was already here)

Why also no Pentecost or other Spiritual gifts prior?

They are 2 different things with 2 different meanings

No spiritual gifts prior? So you are saying no spiritual gifts were given/manifested in the OT?

Also Pentecost is as the original text reveals The Feast of Weeks or in Hebrew Shavuot. No Pentecost prior? Feast of Weeks/Shavuot happened every year prior. It is strongly believed when Yahweh gave the 10 words/commandments that it was on this day of Shavuot as this happened after Passover and we know they travelled for a while lets say around 50 days which is why the Greeks have it translated as Pentecost in Greek means the fifty or fiftieth day. On that day also at Mt Sinai there was loud roaring rushing wind, fire etc as happened on the same day 1,500 odd yrs later when the disciples where in the temple in one accord praying at Shavuot/Pentecost. Why? Because 3 times a year they had to be in Jerusalem for the feasts of Yahweh. Which explains in Acts 2 that all they people who heard Peter were devout Jews and list all the nations from around about from where they came. Why because they were devout/observant Jews they had to be there it was commanded by Yahweh for them to be there.

Again showing why it is so important to understand the text if possible from the original language and culture (context). The Bible was not written in English!! It was written from 2,000 - 3,500 years ago in a different culture and language, with people who had a very different mindset than ours, you know the Hebrew people!

Shalom Friend

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

No spiritual gifts prior? So you are saying no spiritual gifts were given/manifested in the OT?

Show one where this happened to individuals after salvation through Jesus. I would like to see it.

Also Pentecost is as the original text reveals The Feast of Weeks or in Hebrew Shavuot. No Pentecost prior? Feast of Weeks/Shavuot happened every year prior. It is strongly believed when Yahweh gave the 10 words/commandments that it was on this day of Shavuot as this happened after Passover and we know they travelled for a while lets say around 50 days which is why the Greeks have it translated as Pentecost in Greek means the fifty or fiftieth day. On that day also at Mt Sinai there was loud roaring rushing wind, fire etc as happened on the same day 1,500 odd yrs later when the disciples where in the temple in one accord praying at Shavuot/Pentecost. Why? Because 3 times a year they had to be in Jerusalem for the feasts of Yahweh. Which explains in Acts 2 that all they people who heard Peter were devout Jews and list all the nations from around about from where they came. Why because they were devout/observant Jews they had to be there it was commanded by Yahweh for them to be there.

non sequitur

Again showing why it is so important to understand the text if possible from the original language and culture (context). The Bible was not written in English!! It was written from 2,000 - 3,500 years ago in a different culture and language, with people who had a very different mindset than ours, you know the Hebrew people!

And that's what I pointed out

 

[Truman]

No spiritual gifts prior? So you are saying no spiritual gifts were given/manifested in the OT?

Also Pentecost is as the original text reveals The Feast of Weeks or in Hebrew Shavuot. No Pentecost prior? Feast of Weeks/Shavuot happened every year prior. It is strongly believed when Yahweh gave the 10 words/commandments that it was on this day of Shavuot as this happened after Passover and we know they travelled for a while lets say around 50 days which is why the Greeks have it translated as Pentecost in Greek means the fifty or fiftieth day. On that day also at Mt Sinai there was loud roaring rushing wind, fire etc as happened on the same day 1,500 odd yrs later when the disciples where in the temple in one accord praying at Shavuot/Pentecost. Why? Because 3 times a year they had to be in Jerusalem for the feasts of Yahweh. Which explains in Acts 2 that all they people who heard Peter were devout Jews and list all the nations from around about from where they came. Why because they were devout/observant Jews they had to be there it was commanded by Yahweh for them to be there.

Again showing why it is so important to understand the text if possible from the original language and culture (context). The Bible was not written in English!! It was written from 2,000 - 3,500 years ago in a different culture and language, with people who had a very different mindset than ours, you know the Hebrew people!

Shalom Friend

Thank you, Ancient, for sharing your knowledge.
I have got so much catching up to do.

 

[Ancient]

Show one where this happened to individuals after salvation through Jesus. I would like to see it.

Yeshua has always been. He was from the foundation of the world. In the beginning was the word, and the word became flesh. All thing were created by Him and all things created through Him and for Him.

If you think the Holy Spirit was not present in the OT, well then you are reading a way different version than me. What do you think hovered or fluttered over the face of the deep? Casper? Also I see maybe an issue with your username being an apologetic is that you will defend your position which is what seems to me a consistency in all my interactions with you.

One of the most favourite lines I have ever heard is "My doctrine is always written in pencil." May I add except for some key issues that I will die on a hill for regarding who Yeshua is, and what Yeshua's blood of Redemption has accomplished for those who receive it and apply it to their lives by faith. Also, that Yahweh does not change. So if Yahweh does not change neither does His Word. Praise Yah

Shalom Friend

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Yeshua has always been. He was from the foundation of the world. In the beginning was the word, and the word became flesh. All thing were created by Him and all things created through Him and for Him.

If you think the Holy Spirit was not present in the OT, well then you are reading a way different version than me. What do you think hovered or fluttered over the face of the deep? Casper? Also I see maybe an issue with your username being an apologetic is that you will defend your position which is what seems to me a consistency in all my interactions with you.

All those pretty words yet nothing of substance relative to the questions at hand. I did defend my position and you have yet to establish yours by scripture. ( that hasn't been overlooked) Where is the scripture that contradicts what I said?

 

[ChristisGod]

You obviously cannot read English any better than you read Greek ( or comprehend what you read)

Jesus is "God" but he is NOT God "the father" ( the supreme)

You obviously cannot read and remember your own answer to my question.

I asked you who is God in 2 Peter 1:1 ?

You replied

An Apologetic Sheepdog said: ↑
God (theos) is the Father and Jesus is the Son. Two different people.

To which I replied you are wrong in post #41 and gave an exegesis proving you were wrong that it is One Person the Son, not the Father and Son- 2 different Persons.

And now you try and bait n switch to get out of admitting you are wrong by saying:

"You obviously cannot read English any better than you read Greek ( or comprehend what you read)"

conclusion: you cannot comprehend what you read and its your English and Greek that is a comprehension problem for you, not me. I know Greek (5 decades now since the 80's)which you do not otherwise you would of said its One Person-Jesus Christ who is both God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1 which you did not say. Have a nice day there young fellow.

hope this helps !!!

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

To which I replied you are wrong in post #41 and gave an exegesis proving you were wrong that it is One Person the Son, not the Father and Son- 2 different Persons.

And now you try and bait n switch to get out of admitting you are wrong by saying:

No, I explained the context of my statement. I ignored your answer because you were wrong in spite of your "knowledge"

conclusion: you cannot comprehend what you read and its your English and Greek that is a comprehension problem for you, not me. I know Greek (5 decades now since the 80's)which you do not otherwise you would of said Jesus Christ is both God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1 which you did not say. Have a nice day young fellow.

Perhaps you simply need another decade. Jesus "is" both God and Savior. He is NOT God the supreme (father).

They are two distinct and different entities.

 

[amadeus]

Easy for you to say. Lol

LOL... not so easy as you might believe, my friend.