The Holy Spirit
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I see you have no apologetic that can refute what I said in 2 Peter 1:1. Another failed response . It’s One Person Jesus Christ who is called our God and Savior in that passage not 2 persons.
Just like Jesus is Our Great God and Savior in Titus 2:13. Another passage you are incapable of refuting me from the Greek.
So much for the Father alone being our Great God.
I can refute all your false claims regarding the Son.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The "great" God is the Father ( and is a conjunction joining 2 "like" terms- not the "same" terms)
You need a deeper education
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Refuting your false teaching about Jesus is easier than taking candy away from a baby.
No place in the New Testament is the phrase epifaneian tou theou " the manifestation or appearing of God" - applied to any other one than Christ. The "coming" of God is not spoken of anywhere in the New Testament. The one article combines God and Saviour, which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. hos in 14 is singular and refers to Christ indicating that only one person is spoken of in verse 13.
The burden of proof of Theos being a common noun would be on you. We(trins) say that "Jesus is God" is true in NT thought and expressed in various passages. The nearest comparable statements are "the Word was God" (John 1:1), "the only Son, who is God" (John 1:18), and Christ (the Messiah) who is over all, God blessed forever (Rom. 9:5)our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1) The phrase (Jesus is God) is inferred from the New Testament.
Lets look at a couple similar phrases in 2 Peter that are relevant to the Titus passage in question.
1:1: tou theou hemon kai sotaros Iesou Christou
1:11: tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros Iesou Christou
Can you notice the exact one to one relationship between these passages? The only difference is the substitution of kuriou for theou. No one here would even question the translation of (our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) at 1:11 why question the translation of (our God and Savior Jesus Christ) at 1:1?
To be consistent in translating these verses it demands that we not allow any of our personal prejudices to interfere with the accurate rendering of Gods Word. Your personal prejudice comes through in your eisegesis of Titus 2:13. The Greek is very clear once again and Titus 2:13 just like 2 Peter 1:1 has the same exact Greek construction.
And the appearing/coming in the N.T. is always about the Son and never once does scripture ever refer to the Father as the One who is Coming or Appearing at the 2nd Coming.
hope this helps !!!
Too bad you never actually do it though
Your "argument" is still false and its been pointed out to you. You are just in denial puffed up by ego.
Nothing new there.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I sure wouldn't claim to know anything about Greek if I were you as clearly I have demonstrated you do not know anything about it from 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13.
Please show us where the bible says the Father is Coming or Appearing ?
Here I will help you since you do not know the answer.
Epiphenia- Appearing
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Parousia- Coming
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.
James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.
2 Thessaloninas 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
So much error in so few examples. It boggles the mind sometimes how people like you get so far off base.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Yes its mind boggling for a so-called apologist to avoid giving an apologetic response and use only ad hominems as a rebuttal. It says allot about your abilities ot lack thereof.
I'm not in the habit of repeating myself when the point has been established and your circular myriad of error doesn't change any of it.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I see you cannot refute the truth from 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 that Jesus Christ is our Great God and Savior.
But hey at-least you gave it an attempt. Maybe some day you will present a cogent response to those passages with some king of exegetical response. But I will not be holding my breath if the past few days are any indicator of how you use apologetics or shall I say how you do not use apologetics.
Until then Jesus will always remains as Scripture declares He is our Great God, Almighty God and the True God and Eternal Life.
hope this helps !!!
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
This is going to sound kind of ...
anywhoo..
it is what it is..
When someone claims that Jesus in the flesh is a different God than God the creator,
then we are creating an "idol" of flesh we call God.
If God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, then Jesus is not "another" God.
It is the father himself working through the flesh, which was sacrificed, and God rose himself up from the grave.
The body which contained him, is called Jesus. And Jesus gave glory to the Father through his body.
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
So the question is.. who is this Spirit of Truth?
Is this God himself, his word, his spirit?
Or is it someone else?
This is hard...
Because when I think of the Lord, I see Jesus the man.
And by doing so I make the man a God.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
It's hard to seperate the physical world from the spiritual world.
But there is still only One God.
Hugs
anywhoo..
it is what it is..
When someone claims that Jesus in the flesh is a different God than God the creator,
then we are creating an "idol" of flesh we call God.
If God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself, then Jesus is not "another" God.
It is the father himself working through the flesh, which was sacrificed, and God rose himself up from the grave.
The body which contained him, is called Jesus. And Jesus gave glory to the Father through his body.
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
So the question is.. who is this Spirit of Truth?
Is this God himself, his word, his spirit?
Or is it someone else?
This is hard...
Because when I think of the Lord, I see Jesus the man.
And by doing so I make the man a God.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
It's hard to seperate the physical world from the spiritual world.
But there is still only One God.
Hugs
jessiblue
Well-Known Member
Hi, soul man.
Since we know that God embraces the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (the Trinity), then we can confidently say that anything done by God in the OT was also done by the Holy Spirit, right? We can see in the OT that God filled many with His Spirit, but on that Pentecost day, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples, this event would be the beginning of the spreading of the gospel! …just some thoughts. -jb
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
and you get the I'm no apologist award since you cannot defend your fallacious 2 person position from 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 but you de get the sheepdog award that is clear so that fits well with your screen name. On that we can agree. I have yet to see you once demonstrate anything resembling an apologetic response in this thread.
Apologetic defined- Bible.org
Defining Apologetics
Apologetics may be simply defined as the defense of the Christian faith. The simplicity of this definition, however, masks the complexity of the problem of defining apologetics. It turns out that a diversity of approaches has been taken to defining the meaning, scope, and purpose of apologetics.
From Apologia to Apologetics
The word “apologetics” derives from the Greek word apologia, which was originally used of a speech of defense or an answer given in reply. In ancient Athens it referred to a defense made in the courtroom as part of the normal judicial procedure. After the accusation, the defendant was allowed to refute the charges with a defense or reply (apologia). The accused would attempt to “speak away” (apo—away, logia—speech) the accusation.1 The classic example of such an apologia was Socrates’ defense against the charge of preaching strange gods, a defense retold by his most famous pupil, Plato, in a dialogue called The Apology (in Greek, hē apologia).
The word appears 17 times in noun or verb form in the New Testament, and both the noun (apologia) and verb form (apologeomai) can be translated “defense” or “vindication” in every case.2 Usually the word is used to refer to a speech made in one’s own defense. For example, in one passage Luke says that a Jew named Alexander tried to “make a defense” before an angry crowd in Ephesus that was incited by idol-makers whose business was threatened by Paul’s preaching (Acts 19:33). Elsewhere Luke always uses the word in reference to situations in which Christians, and in particular the apostle Paul, are put on trial for proclaiming their faith in Christ and have to defend their message against the charge of being unlawful (Luke 12:11; 21:14; Acts 22:1; 24:10; 25:8, 16; 26:2, 24).
Paul himself used the word in a variety of contexts in his epistles. To the Corinthians, he found it necessary to “defend” himself against criticisms of his claim to be an apostle (1 Cor. 9:3; 2 Cor. 12:19). At one point he describes the repentance exhibited by the Corinthians as a “vindication” (2 Cor. 7:11 nasb), that is, as an “eagerness to clear yourselves” (niv, nrsv). To the Romans, Paul described Gentiles who did not have the written Law as being aware enough of God’s Law that, depending on their behavior, their own thoughts will either prosecute or “defend” them on Judgment Day (Rom. 2:15). Toward the end of his life, Paul told Timothy, “At my first defense no one supported me” (2 Tim. 4:16), referring to the first time he stood trial. Paul’s usage here is similar to what we find in Luke’s writings. Earlier, he had expressed appreciation to the Philippians for supporting him “both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (Phil. 1:7). Here again the context is Paul’s conflict with the government and his imprisonment. However, the focus of the “defense” is not Paul but “the gospel”: Paul’s ministry includes defending the gospel against its detractors, especially those who claim that it is subversive or in any way unlawful. So Paul says later in the same chapter, “I am appointed for the defense of the gospel” (Phil. 1:16).
Finally, in 1 Peter 3:15 believers are told always to be prepared “to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you.” The context here is similar to Paul’s later epistles and to Luke’s writings: non-Christians are slandering the behavior of Christians and threatening them with persecution (1 Pet. 3:13-17; 4:12-19). When challenged or even threatened, Christians are to behave lawfully, maintain a good conscience, and give a reasoned defense of what they believe to anyone who asks. (We will discuss this text further in chapter 2.)
The New Testament, then, does not use the words apologia and apologeomai in the technical sense of the modern word apologetics. The idea of offering a reasoned defense of the faith is evident in three of these texts (Philippians 1:7, 16; and especially 1 Peter 3:15), but even here no science or formal academic discipline of apologetics is contemplated. Indeed, no specific system or theory of apologetics is outlined in the New Testament.
In the second century this general word for “defense” began taking on a narrower sense to refer to a group of writers who defended the beliefs and practices of Christianity against various attacks. These men were known as the apologists because of the titles of some of their treatises, and included most notably Justin Martyr (First Apology, Dialogue with Trypho, Second Apology) and Tertullian (Apologeticum). The use of the title Apology by these authors harks back to Plato’s Apology and to the word’s usual sense in the New Testament, and is consistent with the fact that the emphasis of these second-century apologies was on defending Christians against charges of illegal activities.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
The poster has not made any defense to support that 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 is 2 persons which he claims. I have provided both from the Greek and English that Paul is describing one Person in both passages who is identified as Jesus Christ our Great God and Savior and our God and Savior from both of those texts using exegetical principles. In Titus 2:13 not only did I prove it was one Person Jesus Christ but also proved that is impossible for Paul to be describing the Father because never once in the N.T. does it ever say that the Father is the One who is Returning at the 2nd Coming but in every single case it is always the Son who is Coming/Appearing.
hope this helps !!!
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