The Importance of Correct Theology

[DrBubbaLove]

Waynemlj,We are confusing justification, sanctification and “good”. These are different issues and we should distinguish what we are speaking about. We were talking about good and goodness.I never once said or even implied that being “good” or having “good” in us could save us, get us to Heaven. Clearly scripture and my posts said any “good” (righteousness) in man is nothing compared to God. We are saved only by God’s Grace!Totally depraved means absolutely evil, like Satan. So such a view is saying because of the fall we are all born in a state equal to Satan’s state. My rebuttal was we did not fall that far as a race and there remains in all of us some good. Saying we are born with some good and that the Fall of Man was not to "total depravity" is not saying everyone goes to Heaven. Neither is it saying we do not need God's Grace.“How can "dead men" have any spark of their own life?”They don’t, but neither is that what I said. God’s Grace is the only thing that saves, not being “good”. “How can men who follow the "prince of the power of the air" (Satan) claim any goodness in themselves whatever?”Again, that has nothing to do with what I said, but I do doubt such a person would want to claim goodness. More to the point, how can we claim to know what is in the heart of the wicked, that there is nothing good remaining there? And back at us, if we say that about the “un-regenerated” how can we claim any goodness in us when we sin?“How can those who by the nature they are born with, which makes them "children of wrath," (God's unspeakable anger and hatred) claim any goodness of their own?”Again, I doubt someone mired in sin and unrepentant has it in them to want to claim anything good. However that does not mean it is not there, nor does it mean we can assume it is not there when looking at such a soul. If we are all made in His Image, then would think we as Christians have an obligation to see that Image in ALL mankind. Have a problem seeing that Image as a totally evil thing. Maybe it is just me.1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. As to being dead, the reference is to the spirit, even the regenerate retains a body that is still “dead”. And some us also believe the regenerate can still sin to the point of spiritual death again. God will not abide sin.Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.Perhaps you have never had a baby or a grandchild. If so can you honestly look at that infant and say God is going to toss them into Hell should death come too soon? I choose to see the Image of God in that baby and a certain innocence that God's Mercy would not overlook.

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Alanforchrist,Your words:"Even if Jesus was speaking to the elect, [which He wasn't]He has included the ones who will believe v20, Note, Jesus didn't say "The ones that I choose", But, the believer."And how did you come to be a believer? Do you think it's a work that you did for God? You can only believe because God chose (elected) you. You did NOT choose God. You did NOT choose on your own to believe. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."Jesus said directly to His Apostles (and His Word is timeless and applies to all who read it in any age) in John 15:16, "You did not choose me; but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."waynemlj

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Alanforchrist,Your words:"As for God giving faith to believe, God has given everyone the freewill to believe and except the truth, those that do will be saved.".God has not given everyone the freewill to believe. If that's so, then you'll have to answer these questions:1) Is God's will Sovereign or not? 2) Could God's plan of salvation fail to achieve its pupose?3) Could Christ's death for sinners fail to achieve its purpose?If you agree with me that the answer to each of these is a resounding "NO."Then you are going to have to explain to me why more people are going to hell than to heaven.Matthew 7:13, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, those who find it are few."God gave the gift of faith ONLY to the Elect. The whole New Testament is filled with this revelation. And God, through His Holy Spirit inspiring chosen men, wrote His Word to you and me so that we would come to know Him completely. (Not as we imagine him to be).waynemlj

 

[waynemlj]

Hi DrBubbaLove,I really appreciate the way you thoroughly discussed my thouhgts and quotes and referred to them directly in your reply!That makes for such good communication. I wish everyone on this Board would Reply that way.Yes, I have three children and six grandchildren, and I have no trouble believing that God's Word of condemnation applies to each one, though I love them dearly.There is no good in any of them. None!Not because I say so (be sure to understand me, here,) but because God says so. That's why I taught them about their need for salvation and still do discuss our salvation in Christ with my children . . . the youngest being 39 years old. Two of my three children have long ago come to believe in Christ and are saved.One is still on the fringe of trying to figure out what life is all about and whether or not there is a God, etc. I continue to tell him what God has done to utterly change my life and that he needs a Mediator between him and God when his moment of death comes.Now, by long distance, I teach my grandchildren through emails because some of them live 2000 miles away. When the grandchildren from the Niagara Region come to visit, I find every opportunity to tell them that they need to believe in their heart the Word they hear in church and from their parents.Let me say a drastic word to you, and then I'll reference it to Scripture. Every sweet little baby born to this earth is born D.O.A. . . . Dead (spiritually) on Arrival.Romans 3:10-18, "as it is written:'None is righteous, no, not one;no one understands;no one seeks for God.All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good,not even one.Their throat is an open grave;they use their tongues to deceive.The venom of asps is under their lips.Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood;in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.There is no fear of God before their eyes.' "There is absolutely nothing good in you and me, only the Righteousness of God that comes from Jesus Christ, His Holy life as a man, His Holy death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and to transfer His Righteousness to us, and His Holy resurrection from the grave, which is the hope of our resurrection, also.Belief in Christ doesn't just help us to get to heaven. It's the Whole reality of our Salvation. We contribute nothing to our own justification. All is the gift of God. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast," Ephesians 2:8-9.I hope I have been clear in my response to you as you were in your response to me.waynemlj

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Waynemlj,Will say a prayer for all your children and grandchildren and blessings to you for your efforts.Again we mix works, justification and salvation with the idea of good. As I said before these ideas are not equivalent, at least not to Catholics. Being good will not get anyone to Heaven, it does not save and cannot justify us. So there is no conflict in our view with the idea of there being good in all human life and all of us still needing to be saved. Just as Abraham, Enoch and Elijah ALL needed Jesus to get to Heaven. We too need the Grace He provided for mankind in order to effect our salvation. There is nothing in scripture, even in Romans that indicates there is an absolute absence of good in all mankind. Will agree Romans clearly says compared to God, even the most good among us is NOTHING. But again that is not denying there is good in that man. At least you were fully honest is saying you could look at those tiny grandchildren just after they are born and equate those babies with Satan as purely and absolutely EVIL beings. Sorry, I could never do that no matter how many verses you quote to support such a view of this world. It is an evil world we live in, but it is not that EVIL. There is still much good in it.Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Mat 18:4 -5 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. Mar 9:36-37 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

 

[waynemlj]

Hi DrBubbaLove,Just a quick comment on these words in your last post:"Genesis1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."God said those words BEFORE the FALL. There was no sin of disobedience yet. Adam was a pure being when God made him, and he was definitely good!We've been talking about humans AFTER the Fall. Be sure not to confuse these two realities. That's crucial to our understanding of one another.Let's try another Scripture to help to clear up this matter about how bad off we are because of Adam's terrible disobedience against God.I'll start you off on this reference, and you can read the rest for yourself down to the end.Consider these words of God from Ephesians 1-10, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience . . . "The death we inherited here is of course in reference to our spiritual death. How can a dead person (spiritually) have any goodness, any spiritual life? We were dead before God rebirthed us and brought us back to life!Please do read to the end of verse 10 to see the point of our total depravity and helplessness because of the Fall of our human nature and then our own sins that we piled on top of that.By the way the "prince of the power of the air," I am sure you realize, is a reference to Satan. We were his slaves!Now, praise be to God, we are slaves of Christ unto eternal life!waynemlj

 

[Catholic Crusader]

(waynemlj;38873)
The Importance of Correct Theology
And who decides whether theology is correct or not?

 

[Christina]

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: as asked who do you think the We is in v10? The ones who come to Jesus He “will in no way cast out” (John 6:37). and they will attain an inheritance with the predestined ALSO

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(waynemlj;40426)
Hi DrBubbaLove,Just a quick comment on these words in your last post:"Genesis1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."God said those words BEFORE the FALL. There was no sin of disobedience yet. Adam was a pure being when God made him, and he was definitely good!We've been talking about humans AFTER the Fall. Be sure not to confuse these two realities. That's crucial to our understanding of one another.Let's try another Scripture to help to clear up this matter about how bad off we are because of Adam's terrible disobedience against God.I'll start you off on this reference, and you can read the rest for yourself down to the end.Consider these words of God from Ephesians 1-10, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience . . . "The death we inherited here is of course in reference to our spiritual death. How can a dead person (spiritually) have any goodness, any spiritual life? We were dead before God rebirthed us and brought us back to life!Please do read to the end of verse 10 to see the point of our total depravity and helplessness because of the Fall of our human nature and then our own sins that we piled on top to that.By the way the "prince of the power of the air," I am sure you realize, is a reference to Satan. We were his slaves!Now, praise be to God, we are slaves of Christ unto eternal life!waynemlj
Wayne, no one is denying a Fall, as was said very clearly earlier; the question is not whether the human race fell with Adam, but how far was the fall. Read it man! There is a curse. There is nothing in the creation story that suggests the Fall was total, that the Image of God in which man was made has been TOTALLY removed from us. There is nothing in the curse remotely suggesting we are now born on an equal status with Satan, totally and absolutley evil little unborn babies. In fact in the very next Chapter God is speaking with Adam's sons, who according to you would both be totally and absolutely evil. Don't you think if our fall was that far it would be worthy of mention in Chapter 3? Show us in Genesis where God says Adam is totally evil just like Satan. Explain how or why Satan would be fighting us if we are totally evil just like him? "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. And please stop with the compared to God quotes. No man compared to God is Good, but that does not mean there is no good in us. "If we are totally evil and equal to Satan, why would we fight against him?

 

[Alanforchrist]

(waynemlj;39659)
Hi Alanforchrist,Your words:"Even if Jesus was speaking to the elect, [which He wasn't]He has included the ones who will believe v20, Note, Jesus didn't say "The ones that I choose", But, the believer."And how did you come to be a believer? Do you think it's a work that you did for God? You can only believe because God chose (elected) you. You did NOT choose God. You did NOT choose on your own to believe. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."Jesus said directly to His Apostles (and His Word is timeless and applies to all who read it in any age) in John 15:16, "You did not choose me; but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."waynemlj
The gift of God in Ephesians 2: 8, Does not mean "Faith". it means "Salvation".You could say it like this, [and this is the true meaning acording to the Greek"."for by grace are you saved, and that not of your self: It [Salvation] is the gift of God:v9 Not of works, lest any man should boast, And you receive salvation by faith.If God only gave faith to the so-called chosen, how can He be a righteous judge at the judgment day.when Jesus said "I have chosen you" in John 15: [1] He was talking to His disciples, v27. Jesus did chose His disciples, He gives the Ministry gifts in Ephesians 4: 11, and God sets them in the Church. 1 Corinthians 12: 28, God calls people into the Ministry, That is God's choice, not mans.Although the whole Bible is for the Church, it is not all about the Church.you have to fine out who God is speaking to.[2]Acording to the Greek, The word "Chosen" in relation to salvation, does not mean, "The rejection of others". God has chosen a Body, His Church, and that consists of anyone who will believe and receieve.1 Tinothy 4: 10--11.v10. God is the saviour of ALL men.v11. These things command and TEACH.