the importance of Postrib

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marks

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Sorry you're offended. Maybe we can improve that over time?
I'm not offended, you're simply assuming something that's not true, which takes from rather than adds to the discussion.

I've got to run, but I'll read these more closely in the morning.

I appreciate the discussion!

Much love!
 
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Avalon1

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I believe in the post tribulation rapture. The rapture will happen after the Antichrist and the Mark Of The Beast system is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (MEV)

"Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and concerning our gathering together unto Him, we ask you not to let your mind be quickly shaken or be troubled, neither in spirit nor by word, nor by letter coming as though from us, as if the day of Christ is already here."

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (MEV)

"Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God."

Matthew 24:3-12 (MEV)

"As He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

4 Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled. For all these things must happen, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines, epidemics, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

"Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. Then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will rise and will deceive many. Because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Matthew 24:13 (MEV)

"But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Matthew 24:14 (MEV)

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Matthew 24:22-28 (MEV)

"Unless those days were shortened, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Listen, I have told you beforehand.

"So, if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert,’ do not go there; or, ‘Look, He is in the private chambers,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days,

‘the sun will be darkened,
the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
 
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Avalon1

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Also the the rapture can't happen until the Antichrist desecrates the temple, and the temple has to be built first in order for the Antichrist to desecrate it.
 

Randy Kluth

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Also the the rapture can't happen until the Antichrist desecrates the temple, and the temple has to be built first in order for the Antichrist to desecrate it.

Although I like all your arguments for Postrib, I'm not sure about a rebuilt temple. I know that Paul, in 2 Thes 2, states that the man of sin will take his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself God. I just don't know that Paul is referring to the temple as a symbolic posture, or as some kind of literal seating in a physical temple.

If this is a literal temple, what temple would that be? Paul knew the old temple of the Law was to be torn down and destroyed, along with the Law, forever. So in my view, Paul had to be saying that Antichrist would position himself like the false Christs, in the "inner rooms." (Matt 24.26)

It would either be temple Antichrist builds for himself, or simply a self-deifying claim to rule in God's temple in heaven. It certainly cannot be a restored temple of the Law! Just my opinion...
 

Timtofly

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Why is what sad?

And what are Darby's hopeless contradictions? I don't know that much about his views.



Maybe we come at Scripture differently. Anytime you have anything in mind that prevents you from simply taking in the words of Scripture, I think this is a problem.

There seem to be many people who have some overall idea - I guess what they call a "systematic theology"? - of what the Bible is saying, and then go and morph any number of verses into some other shape to fit their ideas.

I don't do that.

And why not spend a little time getting to know my views before just presuming I'm parroting something I was taught? Not to mention you don't actually know how I was taught.

But there's nothing to get thrown by here, it's simply how the text reads.



How so, and where do you find that in the Bible?

Having just written to them about both the rapture, and the day of the Lord, how exactly do you see it speaking of something else?

Because Jesus prophesied false Christs, therefore, that's what this "day of Christ" being referred to was? I don't see that anywhere in this letter.

Much love!
One thing that would have upset them, and thinking they missed the Second Coming would have been the destruction of Jerusalem itself in 70AD. Paul was telling them, that was not the Second Coming. Not even the time of trouble as in a Great Tribulation period.
 

Timtofly

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For example, the 1st few verses of 2 Thes 2 state, matter of fact, that Christ cannot come for the Church until *after* the revelation of Antichrist, specifically in the context of Antichrist's destruction. This is clearly derived from Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from the clouds of heaven, determining to judge the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom on the earth.

Darby is in a hopeless contradiction by suggesting that "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, along with the Church, who will be caught up to heaven before the revelation of the Antichrist. This is a complete contradiction of what had just been said by Paul, namely that the church could *not* be gathered before the revelation of the Antichrist!



That's not my problem here. I'm taking the words as they are. Context determines how words are used, and misunderstanding comes from failing to understand the context. It's the context that we're trying to look at here.



Not the point. Systematic Theology is fine within limits, as you said. For example, Christology and Trinitarianism are examples of systematic theology. But they have to be understood to be employed as a logical system.



I don't know you from Adam. This is how I get to know you, by examining what you say, and understanding it properly or not, by agreeing or disagreeing. Sorry you're offended. Maybe we can improve that over time?



If you connect Jesus' warning about antichrists and false prophets preceding his Coming you will understand that Paul was concerned about the exact same thing, only as it was actually happening among his churches. There were Christians claiming to be a "Move of God" in an eschatological sense, ie as if they were actually bringing in the Kingdom of God by their teaching and evangelization.

I can understand this by observing and reading about the various Millennial movements that have happened in history, which sidetracked Christians. It is a distraction if we think we're entering into heaven imminently, as opposed to settling down to preach the gospel and avoid the errors of our times.

We get ready for the Kingdom not by imminent expectation but rather by taking warning of a soon judgment and preparing by keeping our lives clean. We focus not just on the fact Christ is coming soon, but we stay alert by avoiding the antichristian deceptions that *precede* his Coming!
Satan is the Antichrist and the great deceiver.

Now you have been warned. Stop looking for an Antichrist. The time is now for the church to repent and make straight paths. No more doctrine or theology. The only message now is the Gospel.
 

Randy Kluth

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Satan is the Antichrist and the great deceiver.

Now you have been warned. Stop looking for an Antichrist. The time is now for the church to repent and make straight paths. No more doctrine or theology. The only message now is the Gospel.

I'd rather believe the Bible. The Apostle John penned the words: "do not take away from this Revelation!" The book of Revelation thoroughly described the Antichrist, the Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. And you say, "It is not Gospel. It is worthless." That's dangerous, brother. We are told to look for Antichrist not just in the future, but also in the present, because these are the deceptions we are to avoid. We are to recognize them precisely because we prepare for Christ's coming by keeping our lives clean and unmixed with the world.
 

marks

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One thing that would have upset them, and thinking they missed the Second Coming would have been the destruction of Jerusalem itself in 70AD. Paul was telling them, that was not the Second Coming. Not even the time of trouble as in a Great Tribulation period.
I don't think the temple had been destroyed yet when Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians.

Much love!
 

marks

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I just don't know that Paul is referring to the temple as a symbolic posture, or as some kind of literal seating in a physical temple.

If this is a literal temple, what temple would that be?.

What other temple would he sit in?

It would be the temple the Jews are about to build, wouldn't it?

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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What other temple would he sit in?

It would be the temple the Jews are about to build, wouldn't it?

Much love!

I'm such a Protestant that I can't believe Paul would point to the rebuilding of the OT temple! So where did he get this from? There are a few places. In the OT there are some kings who declared themselves divine. There is the "inner room" Jesus said false Christs would declare their deity in. And there is the temple in heaven, in the book of Revelation. Also, the temple could just be a literary figure to indicate self-deification, such as "taking a stand for his deity," or "taking up residence in God's house."

So no, I don't believe it can be a rebuilt house for the Law, since the Law is kaput under NT law. But it is possible, I suppose, that Antichrist will have a temple built for himself, just as Antiochus 4 tried to usurp God's temple for himself?

Isa 14.13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.

Eze 28.12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God...
14 ...thou wast upon the holy mountain of God ...16 I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God...
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick.

Matt 24.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
 
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marks

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If you can follow me, the real danger Paul drew attention to was the dangers in false eschatological movements within the church.
There was a specific error being brought to the church. There was a great deal of persecution going on, and people were apparently telling them, "It the Day of the LORD!" A day of darkness and wrath. And they were concerned because that meant they had missed the rapture.

So Paul writes them and tells them, as you're thinking about our gathering to Jesus, don't let these people shake you, telling you, "Its the Day of the LORD". That day won't come unless these things happen first . . . the departure . . . and the revealing of the lawless one.

There was a specific error being brought, to which Paul gave a specific response.

So, if we are not to stare up to heaven, wondering when Jesus will return, trying to predict what events will forecast when he will come, we will see that our duty is to not fall for the deceptions that characterize the present age, whether political or religious.

You have an interesting way of reading the Bible.

The angel told the disciples to not gaze into the heavens. They were still looking for Jesus. But He was gone. So we aren't to be watching the sky for His return?

I don't see that.

I'm not saying get all wrapped up in date setting, naturally! But . . . regardless of our eschatology . . . we are to be wise, and not deceived. Personally, I find the best way to do that is to know what the Bible says and hold tight to every word.

We are to be setting our minds on heaven, where Christ is. We are to be hastening, urging on the coming of Christ.

And when you see these things beginning to come to pass look up! Your salvation is near!

If we fail to see the error in the systems around us, we may let it get into our souls and our minds, causing us to mix with the world and fall into worldliness and sin.

Isn't this pretty much always true?

If you can follow me, the real danger Paul drew attention to was the dangers in false eschatological movements within the church. The churches can be deceived and begin to obscure the deceptions which, if not exposed, can contaminate us and make us not ready for the Kingdom of God. We are to expect to have to face Antichristianity in the present age, along with false presentations of the Kingdom prior to the actual eschaton.

Again, I think Paul was addressing the very situation he described. There are other generallized teachings, such as 2 Timothy 3, this one though is rather specific.

Much love!
 

marks

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For example, the 1st few verses of 2 Thes 2 state, matter of fact, that Christ cannot come for the Church until *after* the revelation of Antichrist,
But it does not say that.

That day . . . the day of the Lord . . . if you make that to be the rapture, the passage doesn't make sense. Why be troubled over what you want being here? That's what it would mean.

Much love!
 

marks

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Darby is in a hopeless contradiction by suggesting that "Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit, along with the Church, who will be caught up to heaven before the revelation of the Antichrist. This is a complete contradiction of what had just been said by Paul, namely that the church could *not* be gathered before the revelation of the Antichrist!

Your understanding of this passage is that the restrainer Cannot Be the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit/Church will not be removed until after the revelation of the antichrist.

This objection would become moot when we see that the passage does not say the rapture cannot happen until the antichrist be revealed. Not the rapture, rather, the day of the Lord won't happen.

You gotta remember . . . they Want to be gathered to Jesus, so telling them that day were here, if that were what was being said, wouldn't trouble them . . . they WANT it.

But I would disagree with Darby, I don't think the Holy Spirit stops being in the world when the church is removed.

It is a distraction if we think we're entering into heaven imminently, as opposed to settling down to preach the gospel and avoid the errors of our times.
I'm not all into "imminence" as taught by some.

But I think it's a mistake to not have imminence in our hearts at all times regardless. We don't know when Jesus will catch us away. And we equally don't know the day and hour of our passing. Any day, any moment, could be our very last.

There is another error of our time that we should avoid, I think, that being to ignore these things, and to not live with our minds in expectation of seeing Jesus.

We are not in darkness so that day should come upon us anawares! But that requires that we know not only the times, but the true teachings of the Bible, or we won't know what we're looking for.

We get ready for the Kingdom not by imminent expectation but rather by taking warning of a soon judgment and preparing by keeping our lives clean. We focus not just on the fact Christ is coming soon, but we stay alert by avoiding the antichristian deceptions that *precede* his Coming!
I don't think the one negates the other, rather, they reinforce each other.

And again, rather rapture or death, we have no idea when we will stand before God.

Much love!
 

marks

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There is the "inner room" Jesus said false Christs would declare their deity in.
That's not what Jesus said. And it makes it sound like something very different. Does that not concern you?

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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I'd rather believe the Bible. The Apostle John penned the words: "do not take away from this Revelation!" The book of Revelation thoroughly described the Antichrist, the Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. And you say, "It is not Gospel. It is worthless." That's dangerous, brother. We are told to look for Antichrist not just in the future, but also in the present, because these are the deceptions we are to avoid. We are to recognize them precisely because we prepare for Christ's coming by keeping our lives clean and unmixed with the world.
I am not adding anything. I am witnessing to the truth of what John wrote. Show me one verse in Revelation that says Antichrist. For if you cannot, it is you who is adding Antichrist to the book of Revelation.

A person standing on the seashore with two horns as a lamb, a false christ, who speaks like a dragon, Satan himself, is not a human Antichrist. It is Satan. But that comes after the Thunderings, after the Trumpets, after seals 4,5,6,and 7. So waiting for the Antichrist is waiting until after seal 4, 5, 6, and 7. It is waiting through the Trumpets. It is waiting through the Thunderings. Satan is the one who interupts the week of the Second Coming. That is when Satan takes over in the place of sacrifice in Jerusalem. The whole week of the Second Coming is the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:7

7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

It is the days of. When the last Trumpet sounds, it will last the whole week of the Second Coming. The first 6 Trumpets have to sound first. The Thunderings happen after the 6th Trumpet. They were sealed. That means we do get new information in the last days. We are not told when that will happen or even how. The church is supposed to be prepared. If you accept Paul's writings about the end, he claims there is a last trump. Well Trump is the potus. The last one. He is the only potus who twitters his own horn almost constantly. The 5th seal are the dead in Christ. The 6th seal is God on the throne. The Lamb is coming in the clouds. Read Titus 2:11-15

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Paul points out here, that both God and Jesus Christ are returning. We all look at the other two more famous passages over and over, but is Paul contradicting himself? No. Paul paints a wonderful and glorious event. He just leaves out God on the throne. But in Titus we see that Paul did know about the 6th seal. John wrote it as judgment on a wicked world. Not as a glorious church event. That is because Revelation 6 is not a theme of glorious events. It is a judgment on the church as the Lamb un-seals the Lamb's book of life. It is not supposed to be fun. It is supposed to be a time of preparation and repentance. Jesus taught that out of 10 virgins, only 5 were prepared. 5 were foolish. Perhaps that does not even refer to the church. Quite frankly the church is prepared for the wrong event.

So Paul says to: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Seal 6 says all humanity alive will know God. Is the church prepared for this event?

Is the church prepared for the 4th seal?

Are we, "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world"
 

Randy Kluth

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I am not adding anything. I am witnessing to the truth of what John wrote. Show me one verse in Revelation that says Antichrist. For if you cannot, it is you who is adding Antichrist to the book of Revelation.

That is so shallow! It's not what synonym that is the concern, but the teaching. We are not to remove the teaching of the Antichrist. It doesn't matter if you call him the "Man of Sin," or the "Little Horn." If he is being taught in Revelation, who are you to marginalize this teaching? We are taught it so that we will not be deceived. If you see a trap set for you, you won't fall into it.

A person standing on the seashore with two horns as a lamb, a false christ, who speaks like a dragon, Satan himself, is not a human Antichrist. It is Satan. But that comes after the Thunderings, after the Trumpets, after seals 4,5,6,and 7. So waiting for the Antichrist is waiting until after seal 4, 5, 6, and 7. It is waiting through the Trumpets. It is waiting through the Thunderings. Satan is the one who interupts the week of the Second Coming. That is when Satan takes over in the place of sacrifice in Jerusalem. The whole week of the Second Coming is the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:7

You are surmising all of these things. A chronological order is not established between all of these visions. Again, you are adding to the text. Stick with the text, and you'll be fine.

Paul called the Antichrist the "Man of Lawlessness." That means he is a man endowed with the power of Satan--not Satan himself.

7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

It is the days of. When the last Trumpet sounds, it will last the whole week of the Second Coming. The first 6 Trumpets have to sound first. The Thunderings happen after the 6th Trumpet. They were sealed. That means we do get new information in the last days. We are not told when that will happen or even how. The church is supposed to be prepared. If you accept Paul's writings about the end, he claims there is a last trump. Well Trump is the potus. The last one. He is the only potus who twitters his own horn almost constantly. The 5th seal are the dead in Christ. The 6th seal is God on the throne. The Lamb is coming in the clouds. Read Titus 2:11-15

All we know is that the 7 trumpets were sounded one after another. This was a *vision*--not necessarily event after event in chronological order. John merely saw each event in turn, for whatever reason. If a timing scheme was given, then I would accept a chronological order. Some of it obviously will be in chronological order. But to think that because John saw his visions in a particular order this must mean they are in chronological sequence is not necessarily true.

11 For the grace of God that bring salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Paul points out here, that both God and Jesus Christ are returning. We all look at the other two more famous passages over and over, but is Paul contradicting himself? No. Paul paints a wonderful and glorious event. He just leaves out God on the throne. But in Titus we see that Paul did know about the 6th seal. John wrote it as judgment on a wicked world. Not as a glorious church event. That is because Revelation 6 is not a theme of glorious events. It is a judgment on the church as the Lamb un-seals the Lamb's book of life. It is not supposed to be fun. It is supposed to be a time of preparation and repentance. Jesus taught that out of 10 virgins, only 5 were prepared. 5 were foolish. Perhaps that does not even refer to the church. Quite frankly the church is prepared for the wrong event.

So Paul says to: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Seal 6 says all humanity alive will know God. Is the church prepared for this event?

Is the church prepared for the 4th seal?

Are we, "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world"

The whole reason the Revelation was given, together with the pictures of Satan and the Antichrist, was so that we would not be fooled when the counterfeits to the truth appear. We need to see the trap before we step into it. It is wrong to devalue the importance of the Antichrist in Scriptures. Jesus said we should know about "false Christs and false prophets." Who are you to say otherwise?
 

Randy Kluth

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There was a specific error being brought to the church. There was a great deal of persecution going on, and people were apparently telling them, "It the Day of the LORD!" A day of darkness and wrath. And they were concerned because that meant they had missed the rapture.

I don't think so. As I said, I think this goes back to Jesus' warning to his disciples about "false Christs and false prophets." Their danger was not in God bringing wrath down upon the Church. Rather, the danger was in the fact they try to imitate and counterfeit the truth, so as to mislead Christians into error, into distractions, and into worldliness.

As false Christs they pretend to be the coming Kingdom of God, and so lead people into false cults. And this was the danger Paul warned against--not the problem of falling under divine judgment.

So Paul writes them and tells them, as you're thinking about our gathering to Jesus, don't let these people shake you, telling you, "Its the Day of the LORD". That day won't come unless these things happen first . . . the departure . . . and the revealing of the lawless one.

There was a specific error being brought, to which Paul gave a specific response.

Christians in error would not be declaring "it's the end--we're doomed!" No, these were *deceivers,* who offered a false version of God's coming Kingdom. They were, in modern parlance, a "millennial group."

You have an interesting way of reading the Bible.

The angel told the disciples to not gaze into the heavens. They were still looking for Jesus. But He was gone. So we aren't to be watching the sky for His return?

Why do you think the angel remarked about this? He was concerned that Christians would ignore the deceptions that would derail our real preparation for his Coming! If we fail to recognize the deceptions of our age, we may be lured into worldliness, and lose our preparedness for the Kingdom of God.

I don't see that.

I'm not saying get all wrapped up in date setting, naturally! But . . . regardless of our eschatology . . . we are to be wise, and not deceived. Personally, I find the best way to do that is to know what the Bible says and hold tight to every word.

We are to be setting our minds on heaven, where Christ is. We are to be hastening, urging on the coming of Christ.

And when you see these things beginning to come to pass look up! Your salvation is near!

I don't disagree with that--it's one of my favorite verses! But in watching Christ in heaven is a reminder of our holiness. In watching for counterfeits on earth, we can expose them against the truth we see in heaven.

Isn't this pretty much always true?

Again, I think Paul was addressing the very situation he described. There are other generallized teachings, such as 2 Timothy 3, this one though is rather specific.

Much love!

Again, the teaching of the Antichrist, and the warning Paul gave about counterfeit millennial movements, indicate the same thing Jesus said. He warned his disciples that true preparation for his Kingdom consisted of 2 things, and not just 1 thing.
1) We keep our eyes fixed on Jesus in heaven, as an example of who we are following.
2) We keep alter to errors on the earth so that we are not distracted or misled, rendering us powerless or guilty of sin.
 

Randy Kluth

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But it does not say that.

That day . . . the day of the Lord . . . if you make that to be the rapture, the passage doesn't make sense. Why be troubled over what you want being here? That's what it would mean.

Much love!

The way I'm putting it makes perfect sense to me. Don't follow a claimed "millennial movement"--the Millennial Kingdom will not come until Christ arrives from heaven in full universal revelation, to destroy rebellion on earth. All premature claims to be God's Kingdom are pretend and contain a coverup of rebellion on earth. The very nature of the Premillennial Earth is the presence of spiritual rebellion. And that must be exposed, and not covered up.

To make it clear, Jesus said the exact same thing. He said false Christs and false prophets would precede his coming, and must be carefully exposed so that we are not misled. False movements have the capacity to mislead, and that is what both Jesus and Paul were concerned about. True readiness for God's coming Kingdom is a matter of navigating through present errors on the earth.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your understanding of this passage is that the restrainer Cannot Be the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit/Church will not be removed until after the revelation of the antichrist.

This objection would become moot when we see that the passage does not say the rapture cannot happen until the antichrist be revealed. Not the rapture, rather, the day of the Lord won't happen.

You gotta remember . . . they Want to be gathered to Jesus, so telling them that day were here, if that were what was being said, wouldn't trouble them . . . they WANT it.

Wrong. It was trouble Christians to think they were somehow missing the move of God's Kingdom already come to earth. That's the very definition of a "Millennial Cult!"

The Day of the Lord is, in fact, the Coming of Christ for his Church. The passage plainly says that.

But I would disagree with Darby, I don't think the Holy Spirit stops being in the world when the church is removed.

For one thing, the Holy Spirit is not named as the Restrainer. The only time I find that names and identities are removed is when it is to protect Christians from ungodly authorities, political and religious. For example, in this very passage Paul refuses to identify the Roman authorities as the thing present restraining the Antichrist. It would identify them as the 4th Kingdom of Dan 7, which holds the mystery of iniquity until it is ready to release its full rebellion under the Antichrist.

John does the same thing in the book of Revelation, particularly ch. 17. He refuses to identify the Great Harlot as the city of Rome, for his own protection. But Christians knew what he referred to!

The Church Fathers commonly saw the Restrainer as the Roman government. So we have good reason to believe this--certainly not the Holy Spirit, who certainly must always remain on the earth, particularly when persecuted Christians need His help!

I'm not all into "imminence" as taught by some.

But I think it's a mistake to not have imminence in our hearts at all times regardless. We don't know when Jesus will catch us away. And we equally don't know the day and hour of our passing. Any day, any moment, could be our very last.

We are to look at our lives in a reasonable way, with our eyes wide open. God is always guiding us--not setting traps for us! If He gave us a ministry, we can't do that thinking we will just fall dead, or suddenly be whisked away! ;) So, we're agreed that imminency is false teaching, hopefully--the idea that Christ could come "at any moment?" We just know it will be *after* the reign of Antichrist, and that it will not be on any specified day.

There is another error of our time that we should avoid, I think, that being to ignore these things, and to not live with our minds in expectation of seeing Jesus.

We are not in darkness so that day should come upon us anawares! But that requires that we know not only the times, but the true teachings of the Bible, or we won't know what we're looking for.

Agreed.

I don't think the one negates the other, rather, they reinforce each other.

And again, rather rapture or death, we have no idea when we will stand before God.

Much love!

Okay.
 

marks

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Wrong. It was trouble Christians to think they were somehow missing the move of God's Kingdom already come to earth. That's the very definition of a "Millennial Cult!"
I think that's just your idea about this. I don't see anything like that. In the first letter, Paul teaches about our being caught up to Jesus, and in the second letter he refers to our being gathered together to Him.

How is this some sort of millennial cult?

Much love!