the importance of Postrib

[Avalon1]

Although I like all your arguments for Postrib, I'm not sure about a rebuilt temple. I know that Paul, in 2 Thes 2, states that the man of sin will take his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself God. I just don't know that Paul is referring to the temple as a symbolic posture, or as some kind of literal seating in a physical temple.

If this is a literal temple, what temple would that be? Paul knew the old temple of the Law was to be torn down and destroyed, along with the Law, forever. So in my view, Paul had to be saying that Antichrist would position himself like the false Christs, in the "inner rooms." (Matt 24.26)

It would either be temple Antichrist builds for himself, or simply a self-deifying claim to rule in God's temple in heaven. It certainly cannot be a restored temple of the Law! Just my opinion...

It will be the literal rebuilt third temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (MEV)

"Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and concerning our gathering together unto Him, we ask you not to let your mind be quickly shaken or be troubled, neither in spirit nor by word, nor by letter coming as though from us, as if the day of Christ is already here. Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God."

Matthew 24:15-21 (MEV)

"So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. Let him who is in the field not return to take his clothes. Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse in those days! Pray that your escape will not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be"

Revelation 11:1-3 (MEV)

"I was given a reed like a measuring rod. The angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. But exclude the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations. They will trample on the Holy City for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

 

[marks]

Christians in error would not be declaring "it's the end--we're doomed!" No, these were *deceivers,* who offered a false version of God's coming Kingdom. They were, in modern parlance, a "millennial group."

I think what they were was post tribbers.

They were denying that the rapture would happen before the day of the Lord. So Paul was clarifying the matter.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why do you think the angel remarked about this? He was concerned that Christians would ignore the deceptions that would derail our real preparation for his Coming! If we fail to recognize the deceptions of our age, we may be lured into worldliness, and lose our preparedness for the Kingdom of God.

I think it was about the disciples at that moment.

Many other passages tell us to fix our mind on Jesus in heaven and towards Jesus' second coming. It's by remaining focused on that, this is how we live pure lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and the warning Paul gave about counterfeit millennial movements,

Can you quote this warning for me? Is there somewhere else I'm not remembering?

Or do you really mean "as though the Day of Christ were here"? And that's all this is based on? Is that correct?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

That is so shallow! It's not what synonym that is the concern, but the teaching. We are not to remove the teaching of the Antichrist. It doesn't matter if you call him the "Man of Sin," or the "Little Horn." If he is being taught in Revelation, who are you to marginalize this teaching? We are taught it so that we will not be deceived. If you see a trap set for you, you won't fall into it.



You are surmising all of these things. A chronological order is not established between all of these visions. Again, you are adding to the text. Stick with the text, and you'll be fine.

Paul called the Antichrist the "Man of Lawlessness." That means he is a man endowed with the power of Satan--not Satan himself.



All we know is that the 7 trumpets were sounded one after another. This was a *vision*--not necessarily event after event in chronological order. John merely saw each event in turn, for whatever reason. If a timing scheme was given, then I would accept a chronological order. Some of it obviously will be in chronological order. But to think that because John saw his visions in a particular order this must mean they are in chronological sequence is not necessarily true.



The whole reason the Revelation was given, together with the pictures of Satan and the Antichrist, was so that we would not be fooled when the counterfeits to the truth appear. We need to see the trap before we step into it. It is wrong to devalue the importance of the Antichrist in Scriptures. Jesus said we should know about "false Christs and false prophets." Who are you to say otherwise?

The problem is that Revelation is pointing out Satan and the False prophet. John never mentions an antichrist. Paul mentions a false prophet as Satan, still no Antichrist. The false prophet is of the same vein as the one mentioned in Daniel, who actually sacrificed a pig. We already have historical proof that a human did sacrifice a pig on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem. Some agree that in Revelation 13, the similar false prophet healed of a deadly wound. A false prophet elevated as in charge of a kingdom, without having an actual kingdom. Then there is Satan.

An Antichrist is never named once, even when two beings are cast into the lake of fire, and Satan is bound. If Satan is bound as the third being, and is not the false prophet, and Satan cannot be the image, then the only other choice is that it is Satan as the beast with 2 horns like a Lamb, but the voice of a dragon. So yes, it is Satan who has deceived us and needs to be exposed today, not later. But who is going to expose Satan? The least that can be done is stop teaching there is going to be an Antichrist. Just say it is Satan. Stop listening and worrying about this world, and confess life as sinful and wickedness. Seek God in humbleness, and pray for revival. That is the only way to prepare for Satan to be revealed.

Until the 4th, 5th and 6th seal are opened, not many will understand. But at the 6th seal, it will be too late for the church to do anything about saving a lost world. If one cannot be convinced that God does things in an orderly fashion and gave us a final book of the Bible set in a certain order, for 7 specific churches to receive and all the 7 churches agreed it should be placed in the Bible, it should not be guess work for those actually living through it. Why make it such a tough mystery?

 

[Timtofly]

It will be the literal rebuilt third temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (MEV)

"Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and concerning our gathering together unto Him, we ask you not to let your mind be quickly shaken or be troubled, neither in spirit nor by word, nor by letter coming as though from us, as if the day of Christ is already here. Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God."

Matthew 24:15-21 (MEV)

"So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. Let him who is in the field not return to take his clothes. Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse in those days! Pray that your escape will not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then will be great tribulation, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be"

Revelation 11:1-3 (MEV)

"I was given a reed like a measuring rod. The angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. But exclude the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations. They will trample on the Holy City for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

If it is the temple of God, does not God build it Himself? It does not say for God.

Since John is measuring a new Temple built by God, John is actually here when it is built. John is a literal witness to all the seals, trumpets, and thunders. They are not visions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think it was about the disciples at that moment.

Many other passages tell us to fix our mind on Jesus in heaven and towards Jesus' second coming. It's by remaining focused on that, this is how we live pure lives.

Much love!

We weren't just told to look to Jesus, though that was true. We were also forewarned of the Antichrist and of his deceptions. We were warned about that for a reason. Throughout the entire NT age, deceivers are at work, and it won't help us to ignore them. We have to be aware. That's what this teaching is all about--not ignoring the dangers.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you quote this warning for me? Is there somewhere else I'm not remembering?

Or do you really mean "as though the Day of Christ were here"? And that's all this is based on? Is that correct?

Much love!

Yes, "as though the Day of the Lord is already here." That means there were Millennial Cults of Christians who thought they represented God's future Kingdom already come, acknowledging them as the elite. We have seen this all down through the NT age. So we have confirmation from history that this is very serious matter to take warning from.

You can also read it in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus warned about deceivers who were "false Christs" and "false prophets." By nature they presuppose that sin and evil has already been dealt with, and that they are the "overcomers." This in effect covers up the sin and evil that are still prevalent. And we must not listen to them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem is that Revelation is pointing out Satan and the False prophet. John never mentions an antichrist. Paul mentions a false prophet as Satan, still no Antichrist. The false prophet is of the same vein as the one mentioned in Daniel, who actually sacrificed a pig. We already have historical proof that a human did sacrifice a pig on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem. Some agree that in Revelation 13, the similar false prophet healed of a deadly wound. A false prophet elevated as in charge of a kingdom, without having an actual kingdom. Then there is Satan.

An Antichrist is never named once, even when two beings are cast into the lake of fire, and Satan is bound. If Satan is bound as the third being, and is not the false prophet, and Satan cannot be the image, then the only other choice is that it is Satan as the beast with 2 horns like a Lamb, but the voice of a dragon. So yes, it is Satan who has deceived us and needs to be exposed today, not later. But who is going to expose Satan? The least that can be done is stop teaching there is going to be an Antichrist. Just say it is Satan. Stop listening and worrying about this world, and confess life as sinful and wickedness. Seek God in humbleness, and pray for revival. That is the only way to prepare for Satan to be revealed.

Until the 4th, 5th and 6th seal are opened, not many will understand. But at the 6th seal, it will be too late for the church to do anything about saving a lost world. If one cannot be convinced that God does things in an orderly fashion and gave us a final book of the Bible set in a certain order, for 7 specific churches to receive and all the 7 churches agreed it should be placed in the Bible, it should not be guess work for those actually living through it. Why make it such a tough mystery?

Apocalyptic by its very nature is difficult. It is designed to keep things hidden from the wicked, and to reveal things obvious to those who are open to the truth.

You are hung up on the word "Antichrist." The word is given by John in 1 John, and it refers to the Little Horn of Dan 7, who stands opposed to the Son of Man and his Kingdom. We have 3 figures in the book of Revelation, the dragon, the 1st Beast and the 2nd Beast. The 2nd Beast later on is called the False Prophet. That means the 1st Beast is the Little Horn of Dan 7, and the "Antichrist" of 1 John, or the "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thes 2.

All this comes from Dan 7, and is designed to warn the Church through the ages that *before the Kingdom comes* there will be satanic efforts to divert our attention away from Christ. Be forewarned--the lies are all around us.

 

[Timtofly]

Apocalyptic by its very nature is difficult. It is designed to keep things hidden from the wicked, and to reveal things obvious to those who are open to the truth.

You are hung up on the word "Antichrist." The word is given by John in 1 John, and it refers to the Little Horn of Dan 7, who stands opposed to the Son of Man and his Kingdom. We have 3 figures in the book of Revelation, the dragon, the 1st Beast and the 2nd Beast. The 2nd Beast later on is called the False Prophet. That means the 1st Beast is the Little Horn of Dan 7, and the "Antichrist" of 1 John, or the "Man of Lawlessness" in 2 Thes 2.

All this comes from Dan 7, and is designed to warn the Church through the ages that *before the Kingdom comes* there will be satanic efforts to divert our attention away from Christ. Be forewarned--the lies are all around us.

1 John 4:1-3

1 Dear friends, don’t trust every spirit. On the contrary, test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Here is how you recognize the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges that Yeshua the Messiah came as a human being is from God,
3 and every spirit which does not acknowledge Yeshua is not from God — in fact, this is the spirit of the Anti-Messiah. You have heard that he is coming. Well, he’s here now, in the world already!

Do you accept the point that Satan was already working in the 1st century? Even Paul said the "man" is already at work as well. 2 Thessalonians 2:7

7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.

This being:

3 For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.

The only being to do that is Satan. Both John and Paul said this Antichrist was already alive and at work. No human can live for 2500 years. Satan started in Greece, because his false prophet was a Greek king.

Why are people not getting it that Satan is deceiving us and the apostate condition is so deep, no one can agree on what is going to happen? It has already started, and the church seems asleep, even when told that Satan is this Antichrist and all are deceived.

1 John says all spirits are from Satan. Yet no one will listen to the one saying stop listening to Satan's spirits. Satan did not send me to expose him. I was sent to tell people to stop being deceived. God on the throne and the Lamb by His side is about to remove 2 billion souls plus the church, and the church is running out of time to reap their harvest. When the Lamb comes, our work will be over on this earth. What has been reaped will be all we have to offer as the fruit of our labor.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 John 4:1-3

1 Dear friends, don’t trust every spirit. On the contrary, test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 Here is how you recognize the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges that Yeshua the Messiah came as a human being is from God,
3 and every spirit which does not acknowledge Yeshua is not from God — in fact, this is the spirit of the Anti-Messiah. You have heard that he is coming. Well, he’s here now, in the world already!

Do you accept the point that Satan was already working in the 1st century? Even Paul said the "man" is already at work as well. 2 Thessalonians 2:7

7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way.

This being:

3 For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom.
4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.

The only being to do that is Satan. Both John and Paul said this Antichrist was already alive and at work. No human can live for 2500 years. Satan started in Greece, because his false prophet was a Greek king.

Why are people not getting it that Satan is deceiving us and the apostate condition is so deep, no one can agree on what is going to happen? It has already started, and the church seems asleep, even when told that Satan is this Antichrist and all are deceived.

1 John says all spirits are from Satan. Yet no one will listen to the one saying stop listening to Satan's spirits. Satan did not send me to expose him. I was sent to tell people to stop being deceived. God on the throne and the Lamb by His side is about to remove 2 billion souls plus the church, and the church is running out of time to reap their harvest. When the Lamb comes, our work will be over on this earth. What has been reaped will be all we have to offer as the fruit of our labor.

There is no explicit Scripture verse that says Satan and the Antichrist are the same person. As I told you, Paul called him the *man* of lawlessness. That means he is a man--not Satan, who is an angel. We are explicitly told that Satan gives his power to this man--not that Satan is this man.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Satanic power is everywhere, and destined to precede the coming of the Kingdom. Satan's power will one day be consolidated in an Antichristian Kingdom. The point is, as you say, it is already here in a preliminary sense. It is this that we must watch out for--not just some future fulfillment of it.

John said that *as you have heard Antichrist is coming,* so already there are many Antichrists. This means that the purpose in our being warned about the coming of Antichrist includes the need to deal with that spirit already among us in this world.

We need to know that Satan will take a concrete governmental form in the future. The Antichrist will be a human governor. The reason we should know this is to make us aware that even today Satan is taking visible form in human governments. And we should treat them as such.

For example, Hitler should've been instantly recognized as a satanic leader, to be opposed, militarily, by all God-loving or law-loving governments in the world. We don't just do spiritual warfare, but we also put teeth to our efforts to oppose evil, if indeed we are in a position to do this properly.

I personally believe that Antichrist, when he forms his totalitarian confederation, will be unassailable for 1260 days. But then other governments across the world may resist and fight against him. This may be what the Battle of Armageddon is all about--good vs. evil. Christ may operate through good governments to oppose the evil government of Antichrist.

 

[marks]

Yes, "as though the Day of the Lord is already here." That means there were Millennial Cults of Christians who thought they represented God's future Kingdom already come, acknowledging them as the elite.

No, the Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and wrath, not a day to be desired. This wasn't about some dominionist theology.

Amos 5
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

As though the day of the Lord is already here, as though this current persecution you are enduring is the Day of the Lord, but it's not. That Day won't come except the departure, and the lawless one be revealed.

You can also read it in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus warned about deceivers who were "false Christs" and "false prophets." By nature they presuppose that sin and evil has already been dealt with, and that they are the "overcomers." This in effect covers up the sin and evil that are still prevalent. And we must not listen to them.

I don't know how it would be that all false christs and prophets would think this certain thing. Which, to confirm, is that they are no longer subjet to sin? Is that what you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We weren't just told to look to Jesus, though that was true. We were also forewarned of the Antichrist and of his deceptions. We were warned about that for a reason. Throughout the entire NT age, deceivers are at work, and it won't help us to ignore them. We have to be aware. That's what this teaching is all about--not ignoring the dangers.

Amen!

We are in agreement!

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

No, the Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and wrath, not a day to be desired. This wasn't about some dominionist theology.

Amos 5
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

As though the day of the Lord is already here, as though this current persecution you are enduring is the Day of the Lord, but it's not. That Day won't come except the departure, and the lawless one be revealed.



I don't know how it would be that all false christs and prophets would think this certain thing. Which, to confirm, is that they are no longer subjet to sin? Is that what you mean?

Much love!

The Day of the Lord in Amos is still the 1000 year reign of Christ. The point is that some are looking for it the wrong way. To all who despise God it will be 1000 years in death and darkness. It is interesting that Amos 5 may be the prophecy of the Star of David. Hitler forced the Jews to wear it in silent rebellion. Some say it marks all the Synagogues of Satan? We will know soon enough what God on the throne and the Lamb think about it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, the Day of the Lord is a day of darkness and wrath, not a day to be desired. This wasn't about some dominionist theology.

Amos 5
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

As though the day of the Lord is already here, as though this current persecution you are enduring is the Day of the Lord, but it's not. That Day won't come except the departure, and the lawless one be revealed.

Paul was referring to those who thought they were some Millennial Cult. Why do I know that? It's because that's just how Jesus referred to them when he warned his disciples about "false Christs and false prophets." If you study false prophets in the OT, you will realize that they tried to smooth over sin and get God's people to go in the wrong direction.

Amos was warning about those who misinterpreted the Day of the Lord to be something good, smoothing over the sin that Amos was trying to expose! They believed God was going to deliver them when actually God was coming to judge them.

Israel believed the Day of the Lord would bring them the "Jewish Hope," or the "Messianic Kingdom." What that entailed was the destruction of Israel's enemies. But at the very time Israel expected God to deliver them from their enemies, they failed to recognize their own sins, and that these enemies were being brought against them by God to judge them for their sins.

The Christians in Paul's time likewise thought they were defeating their enemies and obliterating sin on earth. They surely thought they were superior--the elite of God's Kingdom! But in doing so they failed to recognize that God was patient with sinners, and not willing to judge them without preaching the Gospel first. To thus proclaim victory over God's enemies is to provoke a negative reaction from pagans who were in power. Not a good thing!

Nor is it a good thing to declare yourself elitist, and able to obliterate things that God has not yet chosen to obliterate. It is as slanted and demented as dominion theology, or Faith Doctrine. It is to think that heaven is already here, ready to be "claimed." This is destined to disappoint many Christians. And those who they think are their victims will laugh in their faces, making us all look weak.

I don't know how it would be that all false christs and prophets would think this certain thing. Which, to confirm, is that they are no longer subjet to sin? Is that what you mean?

Much love!

Those who believe the Kingdom has come believe that they are already overcoming sin, or perhaps even sinlessly perfect? It is to pose a threat to enemies that God has not yet given them rule over. And it is to claim perfect health and power to do miracles in areas that belong only in the resurrection. Such claims bring disrepute to the Church, and lead man into discouragement and disappointment.

Paul warned us to be aware that this age is to be characterized by the prominence and dominion of sin and evil. We have been given power to stand in our righteousness and to declare the Gospel. But our victory is not yet complete. We need to be aware of deceptions that can mislead us. That's why Paul was making such a point about Antichrist preceding the Day of the Lord--it is because we need to expose these deceptions and not be caught up in them!

 

[marks]

.

Paul was referring to those who thought they were some Millennial Cult. Why do I know that? It's because that's just how Jesus referred to them when he warned his disciples about "false Christs and false prophets." If you study false prophets in the OT, you will realize that they tried to smooth over sin and get God's people to go in the wrong direction.

Amos was warning about those who misinterpreted the Day of the Lord to be something good, smoothing over the sin that Amos was trying to expose! They believed God was going to deliver them when actually God was coming to judge them.

Israel believed the Day of the Lord would bring them the "Jewish Hope," or the "Messianic Kingdom." What that entailed was the destruction of Israel's enemies. But at the very time Israel expected God to deliver them from their enemies, they failed to recognize their own sins, and that these enemies were being brought against them by God to judge them for their sins.

The Christians in Paul's time likewise thought they were defeating their enemies and obliterating sin on earth. They surely thought they were superior--the elite of God's Kingdom! But in doing so they failed to recognize that God was patient with sinners, and not willing to judge them without preaching the Gospel first. To thus proclaim victory over God's enemies is to provoke a negative reaction from pagans who were in power. Not a good thing!

Nor is it a good thing to declare yourself elitist, and able to obliterate things that God has not yet chosen to obliterate. It is as slanted and demented as dominion theology, or Faith Doctrine. It is to think that heaven is already here, ready to be "claimed." This is destined to disappoint many Christians. And those who they think are their victims will laugh in their faces, making us all look weak.



Those who believe the Kingdom has come believe that they are already overcoming sin, or perhaps even sinlessly perfect? It is to pose a threat to enemies that God has not yet given them rule over. And it is to claim perfect health and power to do miracles in areas that belong only in the resurrection. Such claims bring disrepute to the Church, and lead man into discouragement and disappointment.

Paul warned us to be aware that this age is to be characterized by the prominence and dominion of sin and evil. We have been given power to stand in our righteousness and to declare the Gospel. But our victory is not yet complete. We need to be aware of deceptions that can mislead us. That's why Paul was making such a point about Antichrist preceding the Day of the Lord--it is because we need to expose these deceptions and not be caught up in them!

OK, I appreciate your explanation. These are not anything I think (kingdom now) nor anything I see in the Thessalonians passage (millennial cults), it just seems so much more straightforward to me.

Much love!