The "in Christ" doctrine

[Prentis]

Yes. I agree. Trying by the strength of the flesh to be perfect is worthless.

But if we run to Christ, and run to attain him, when we are filled with him, there is no space for sin.

God works in us first to will, and then to do his good pleasure. He might give both, but many times, I think, the will comes long before the doing, that is because first we must see, and only later we understand how to handle what we see. Thus, with our mind, first we folow the law of Christ, and once we are overcome by Christ fully, unto the saving of the soul, we actually walk like he did in the flesh too.

Does a man who has been healed from blindness and sees still run into walls?

Let's look at what then follows in the text:
[sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[sup]9[/sup] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [sup]10[/sup] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [sup]11[/sup] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [sup]13[/sup] For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Once we follow the law of Christ with our mind, because the Spirit is within us, we must walk by the grace of God and put to death the deeds of the body.

 

[RichardBurger]

Yes. I agree. Trying by the strength of the flesh to be perfect is worthless.

But if we run to Christ, and run to attain him, when we are filled with him, there is no space for sin.

God works in us first to will, and then to do his good pleasure. He might give both, but many times, I think, the will comes long before the doing, that is because first we must see, and only later we understand how to handle what we see. Thus, with our mind, first we folow the law of Christ, and once we are overcome by Christ fully, unto the saving of the soul, we actually walk like he did in the flesh too.

Does a man who has been healed from blindness and sees still run into walls?

Let's look at what then follows in the text:
[sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[sup]9[/sup] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [sup]10[/sup] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [sup]11[/sup] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [sup]13[/sup] For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Once we follow the law of Christ with our mind, because the Spirit is within us, we must walk by the grace of God and put to death the deeds of the body.

It does not say "but if by the flesh you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

 

[Prentis]

You confuse by the flesh and while still living in the flesh. I said, by the SPIRIT. It is because you do not understand we have received the same nature as Christ in us :)

Tell me this; Christ, did he live perfectly on earth in a body like ours?

 

[RichardBurger]

You confuse by the flesh and while still living in the flesh. I said, by the SPIRIT. It is because you do not understand we have received the same nature as Christ in us :)

Tell me this; Christ, did he live perfectly on earth in a body like ours?

If we had a body that does not sin we would be perfect and not need God's imputed righteousness.

 

[Prentis]

Christ had a body just like ours!

What brings sin is that we walk according to the power of our sinful body. We have two natures, one sinful, one not. If we walk by the sinful one, we will sin, if we walk by the spirit, we will not fulfill the deeds of the flesh.

 

[RichardBurger]

You confuse by the flesh and while still living in the flesh. I said, by the SPIRIT. It is because you do not understand we have received the same nature as Christ in us :)

Tell me this; Christ, did he live perfectly on earth in a body like ours?

We have an earthly father and have the sinful nature of fallen Adam. Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit (God). His body was like ours in that it could still sin and die. But He was more than flesh, He was God. It seems to me that you want to claim to be like God while living in sinful flesh.

You fail to teach the gospel of grace that saves sinners living in sinful flesh; that God IMPUTES His righteousness to all that believe.

Romans 3:21-24
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

NKJV

 

[Prentis]

You fail to preach the gospel of the new creation, by which we really are dead and have Christ living through us.

It says 'walk as he walked'. God, by grace, which is the power of God in us, has enabled us to be as he is. It is nothing of ourselves, only that we follow him, and he gives the grace.

 

[Jake]

When we take on His name, it means we take on His divine nature and His characteristics. We were born with a sin nature, He made us into a new creation, and now we can be partakers of his divine nature. This is why you preach, not only an inaccurate version of the gospel, but a powerless gospel, you are in unbelief, that God does not do what He says He will and can do.

2 Peter 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Now that we have His divine nature, He is able to work in us, through us, He lets us participate with Him, all for His glory. In Peter, it talks about things we do, in Him, we do them all in faith, because He lives in us, we have taken on His name and through His divine nature, we are being conformed into His image. The Bible tells us we are "being transformed by the renewing of our minds"; "conforming to His image"; "from glory to glory".

2 Peter 1:5
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [sup][g][/sup]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, [sup]6[/sup] and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, [sup]7[/sup] and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. [sup]8[/sup] For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When God drew us to Him and we accepted, we repented of our past sins, it covered our former sins. Now, He helps us not to stumble but IF we do, we repent and He is faithful to forgive, but as He calls our sins to us and we repent, our sins become less and less.

We are to make certain about His calling and we are to practice those things in the scripture above and if we do, we will NEVER stumble!

2 Peter 1:9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. [sup]10[/sup] Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; [sup]11[/sup] for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[Prentis]

Good word Jake! :)

It is by sharing the divine nature that we escape the corruption, because we walk by his life, not ours.

 

[Vengle]

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Does that not imply that even after entering Christ if we disregard the spirit and willfully walk by the flesh that condemnation remains upon us?​

Now, I know that RichardBurger has addressed that when he said that those who turn away from Christ were never really in Christ to begin with. Considering that Jesus said that no one could snatch them out of his Father's hand, one would think that true, but only if that means we cannot take our self out of the Father's hand. (John 10:29)​

And , one could construe what John said at 1 John 2:19 to mean that but I think 1 John 2:19 means this:Hebrews 10:38-39 “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”​

That then makes Hebrews 6: 4-6 understandable: “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”​

This edditor on here is fighting me.


​

 

[Prentis]

Hey vengle! Welcome here.

I think you make some good points, brother. The Bible is very clear that we can fall away.

A brother once explained it this way to me: 'The Bible has two types of verse, some speak of God's faithfulness, and some of ours.' God's is certain, ours is conditional, thus we must persevere. We have been warned that if we deny him before man, he will deny us before the Father.

Looking forward to more posts from you and getting to know you some more... I hope the editor won't give you too much trouble!

In the meantime, the Lord bless you and keep you, and clothe you with his strength :)

 

[Vengle]

I like that very much Prentis!!!

I just stepped in for a short due to sleep problems. I look forward to speaking with all of you more later.

May God be pleased to bless you and us all.

 

[[email protected]]

What are the benefits of embracing the "In Christ" doctrine?

1. The "In Christ" doctrine is a death blow to religion, subjectivism, and legalism. Christ has done it all. God accepts the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are accepted only in him.
2. This means that we can remain sinners and still be saved. We don't have to be good enough. Christ was good enough for us.

3. It means that we don't have to do good works, rituals like baptism, to go to heaven. Christ has done all of the good works for us, including baptism.
4. It means that we don't have to practice holiness, speaking in tongues, miracles, revelations, etc. We are already holy "In Christ."
5. It means that "In Christ" we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1st Corinthians 1:30.
6. It means that by faith we can rest in the finished work of Christ.

For one who claims to be in Christ you certainly play fast and loose with His life, His words and His intent, not to mention all the pages of the Bible written before and after His appearance upon the earth. Your ideology has a few holes in it.

#1 A death blow to the law?
I think not.
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill."
Mat 5:17
I submit that according to the context of your remark neither you nor the source you quote has any idea of the purpose of the law.

#2 "We can remain sinners and still be saved."
Again you write from ignorance. Specifically in this item with regard to an understanding of justification.
Those who are saved are.."justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
Rom 3:24
Basically, justification means that the person who is 'justified' is no longer considered to be a sinner in God's eyes.
They may remain so in your opinion, but at the seat of judgment your opinion won't mean diddley squat.

#3 "We don't have to do good works."
We are saved FOR good works, not by them.
I refer you to the entire book of James, which you have apparently not read a line.

#4 "We don't have to perform holiness."
Speaking to John the baptist on the day Our Lord was baptised, He said the CEREMONY ought to be performed.....
"Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness."
Math 3:15b
If Jesus Christ felt obligated to perform a ceremony, to participate in worship in synagogues, in the temple, to pray, to study the scripture, etc. are we exempt? I say no. Then again I've been reading scripture. Have you?

#5 "We have been justified"
A contradiction here in your own argument. You have given us no proof of your proper understanding of justification.
See my answer to your #2.

#6 "By faith we may rest in the finished work of Christ."
As far as justification is concerned, this is a correct statement. Taking it in the context of your other statements it would seem a contradiction of ideology.
Being justified by faith does not mean we cease from practicing religion(Heb 10:25), from bringing Christ to a lost world (Math 28:20), or from DOING the works of Christ as well as the Father.
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work".
Joh 5:17
-------------------------
Sir, I perceive that you are sincere in your ideology. Sincerity alone, however, will not certify your notions either with God or the world as being right.

We must all, as good stewards of the life that has been given us, continue in good works, practice of religion and righteous works, not because these things have saved us, but as a witness to the world of that life which God has ordained for us to perform, to celebrate, and to work out in our lives.

 

[RichardBurger]

For one who claims to be in Christ you certainly play fast and loose with His life, His words and His intent, not to mention all the pages of the Bible written before and after His appearance upon the earth. Your ideology has a few holes in it.

#1 A death blow to the law?
I think not.
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill."
Mat 5:17
I submit that according to the context of your remark neither you nor the source you quote has any idea of the purpose of the law.

#2 "We can remain sinners and still be saved."
Again you write from ignorance. Specifically in this item with regard to an understanding of justification.
Those who are saved are.."justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
Rom 3:24
Basically, justification means that the person who is 'justified' is no longer considered to be a sinner in God's eyes.
They may remain so in your opinion, but at the seat of judgment your opinion won't mean diddley squat.

#3 "We don't have to do good works."
We are saved FOR good works, not by them.
I refer you to the entire book of James, which you have apparently not read a line.

#4 "We don't have to perform holiness."
Speaking to John the baptist on the day Our Lord was baptised, He said the CEREMONY ought to be performed.....
"Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness."
Math 3:15b
If Jesus Christ felt obligated to perform a ceremony, to participate in worship in synagogues, in the temple, to pray, to study the scripture, etc. are we exempt? I say no. Then again I've been reading scripture. Have you?

#5 "We have been justified"
A contradiction here in your own argument. You have given us no proof of your proper understanding of justification.
See my answer to your #2.

#6 "By faith we may rest in the finished work of Christ."
As far as justification is concerned, this is a correct statement. Taking it in the context of your other statements it would seem a contradiction of ideology.
Being justified by faith does not mean we cease from practicing religion(Heb 10:25), from bringing Christ to a lost world (Math 28:20), or from DOING the works of Christ as well as the Father.
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work".
Joh 5:17
-------------------------
Sir, I perceive that you are sincere in your ideology. Sincerity alone, however, will not certify your notions either with God or the world as being right.

We must all, as good stewards of the life that has been given us, continue in good works, practice of religion and righteous works, not because these things have saved us, but as a witness to the world of that life which God has ordained for us to perform, to celebrate, and to work out in our lives.

You said:

"I submit that according to the context of your remark neither you nor the source you quote has any idea of the purpose of the law.

Basically, justification means that the person who is 'justified' is no longer considered to be a sinner in God's eyes.
They may remain so in your opinion, but at the seat of judgment your opinion won't mean diddley squat.

I refer you to the entire book of James, which you have apparently not read a line.

If Jesus Christ felt obligated to perform a ceremony, to participate in worship in synagogues, in the temple, to pray, to study the scripture, etc. are we exempt? I say no. Then again I've been reading scripture. Have you?

Sir, I perceive that you are sincere in your ideology. Sincerity alone, however, will not certify your notions either with God or the world as being right.”
****

I will not discuss ME and your assumptions about ME. I have a few assumptions about you too but I don’t feel it is appropriate to write it on an open forum. I don’t need to build my ego.

I will say this, I have read the entire Bible through many time and have studied the scriptures for over 50 years and I do think what I write is based on scriptures and I give a lot of them in my writing to support what I write.

Do you understand that the book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1)?? Why do you go against the word of God and say it is to the Gentiles too??? Do you reaqlly believe that you have to add the words "to the Gentiles too"??? Don't you really think that if God had wanted it to be to the Gentiles He would have said so??

Can you really say you believe the scriptures in the Bible and not believe what they actually say?????
James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
******

Below is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings.

Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way???????????

 

[Vengle]

Paul tells us that the purpose of that Old Law was as a tempoary guardian, a tutor to lead us (yes teach us that we need) Christ and the ransom that he provided. Paul did not mean that it was to teach us only that we need Christ's ransom but that it was also to teach us that we need the living resurected Christ. Why?

Jeremiah said it best and what Jeremiah said is the thing in a nut-shell that the Law was given to prove to us: Jeremiah 10:23-24 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing."

I included Jeremiah's words in verse 24 because that is why we need the risen living Christ. That Law proved the way is not in us and it pointed us toward God's means of recreating us so that the way can be in us.

We cannot afford to lose sight of that when we draw conclusions concerning the place of faith and works and God's imputation of what is righteous.
Righteousness is given us apart from works, but how so? Is that saying that we need no works that God can judge as righteous for us to be imputed righteousness. It did not work like that for Abraham and it will not work that way for us. If not for having works of faith God would not have blessed him. And neither will he us.