The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

[texian]

The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. This theology is usually called dispensationalism. But you can also call it separation theology, because it separates the "church" from all of what it calls Israel.

I know of no dispensationalist authority who makes a distinction
between apostate physical Israel of the
Old Covenant and that Remnant of old Israel who were faithful to God.
That is, some may talk about those
of Old Covenant Israel who were faithful, but the dispensationalists
do not make the distinction between the
two Israels of the Old Covenant a fundamental starting doctrine of
their theology.

By Christ's time most of physical Israel followed the religion of the
Pharisees, or oral Talmudic Judaism. The majority of those in physical
Israel followed the religion of the Pharisees. This was the broad way
theology (Matthew 7: 13-15) of that time. Dispensationalism, or what can also
be called postponement theology, is the broad way theology of our time.

Hebrews Chapter Eleven lists
some of the faithful small Remnant of old Israel who lived by faith.
Those listed
in this chapter include Abel, Enouch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac,
Jacob, Moses, Gideon, and even the prostitute Rahab. "These all died in faith,
not having received the promises, but having seen them afar
off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that
they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 11: 13 There
were a few Hebrews at the time Christ was born who were faithful, such
as Simeon and Anna discussed in Luke Chapter 2.

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism
that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God
expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan...These considerations
all arise from
a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

In dispensationalism "Israel" is always one group, all those who claim
physical descent from Abraham.
At the Cross the promise to Abraham that his seed would be in a covenant with
God forever was changed from the physical seed, the literal DNA of
Abraham, to Abraham's
spiritual seed, to those who like Abraham, believed God. As Paul says
in Romans 9: 8 "They which
are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

Followers of dispensationalism cling to their fundamental belief that
physical Israel, the children of the flesh, remain God's chosen
people. They cling to that belief in physical Israel as the chosen
people, which is called Jewish supremacy, because they think their
identity in Christ is based upon believing physical Israel is the
chosen people. This belief is in great part based on Romans 11: 17
that they as Gentiles of the "church" are grafted into the good olive
tree which, from dispensationalism, they think, is all physical
Israel. Yet Paul is not inconsistent in his doctrines. To be
consistent with Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26, Romans 2: 28-29,
Galatians 3: 28-29 and other New Testament texts, that Israel into
which Gentile Christians are grafted into is Jerusalem which is above,
is free and is the mother of us all, and in Romans 9: 8 the children
of the promise to Abraham as his spiritual seed, rather than his
physical seed who are not born again.

God began Israel in the physical. Entry into the Old Covenant was by
physical blood line,
by being the physical descendants of Abraham, having his DNA.
Circumcision of the male
Israelites was in their flesh, and the temple was a literal physical
building. But II Kings
21: 13 foretells the transformation of physical Israel into one that
is born from above in
Jesus Christ. Then Isaiah 29:16 refers back to the promise that God
would wipe Israel clean and
turn it upside down in II Kings 21, and Isaiah 29: 16 says God's
turning of things upside down
shall be esteemed as the potter's clay, pointing to Jeremiah 18: 1-6.
In the parable of the
potter of Jeremiah 18: 1-6 God is in the role of the potter making
pots on his potter's wheel.
God the potter made a pot which was marred. This is physical Israel.
He then used that same
lump of clay to make out of it another pot, which, in verse 4,"seemed
good to the potter to make it."

The story of physical Israel in the hands of God is seen in the
parable of the fig tree of Luke 13:
5-9. "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise
perish. He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree
planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and
found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold,
these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find
none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also,
till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

The fig tree is physical Israel. "A certain man" is God the Father.
"The dresser" is Jesus Christ. The fig tree
as physical Israel is bearing no spiritual fruit, and so the Father
says to the Son, "cut it down." But the dresser of the vineyard,
who in this parable is Christ, says he will try to save the fig tree.
he will dig about it and dung it. What Christ the dresser
did was to prune back the fig tree representing physical Israel. He
died on the Cross to transform Israel. But what
was transformed was a small Remnant out of the entire population that
was and still is physical Israel. John the Baptist
in Matthew 3: 10 also uses trees as a parable for physical Israel.
John the Baptist says "...every tree which bringeth not
forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire." Here is the
pruning down process which Christ carried out on
physical Israel because they, the vast majority, in broad way
theology, were not bringing forth spiritual fruit.

God through Christ cut back physical Israel to a small Remnant, and
Hebrews 10: 9 is very brief but clear and explicit in saying
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." We know,
even from verse 16 of that same chapter, that the first
refers to the Old Covenant and the second to the New Covenant. The Old
Covenant was done away with, in order to create
the New Covenant. Yet numerous false prophets have been teaching a
return in some degree and in some way to the Old Covenant, either for
Christians or they honor physical Israel without making the
distinction that Paul made between the two Israels in Romans 9;6-8 and
Galatians 4: 24-26.

In attributing the status of God's chosen people to all physical
Israel, most of whom when Christ walked the earth were in Talmudic
Judaism, the religion of the Pharisees, and not believing I Peter 2: 9
that Christians are the chosen people following the Cross,
dispenationalists have, like Esau in Genesis 25, given up their
birthright.

Their birthright is in Israel, but they have the wrong Israel. Christ
came to save Israel, but that Israel which has an identity in Jesus
Christ, as their spiritual birthright, is Israel reborn in Christ
(John 3: 1-6). Only those born again in Christ are part of saved
Israel.

In having attached themselves to one construct called Israel, and not to
born again Israel, dispensationalists are in danger of being told
"I knew you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of
iniquity." Luke 13: 25-27 He doesn't mean he does not know them
where they live geographically, but he does not know them as his own
where they have positioned themselves in their beliefs, in their
doctrines. They are on the broad way of Matthew 7: 13-14, and not the
narrow way.

 

[tomwebster]

The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. ....

I have never heard of "Postphonement" Theology. What are you talking about?

 

[texian]

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. ...."

Thats what I mean by "postphonement theology."

 

[Prentis]

Sounds phony!

 

[tomwebster]

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. ...."

Thats what I mean by "Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of " theology."

Well, tex, since your word "Postphonement" is not in any of the dictionaries I've looked in (I even looked in a WEBSTER'S) I think you need to install a spell checker on your computer and USE it!

PS: Check out "Postponement Theology."

 

[veteran]

The Israel Problem In Postphonement Theology

Postphonement theology teaches that Christ will postphone the salvation of "all Israel" until the tribulation period. This theology is usually called dispensationalism. But you can also call it separation theology, because it separates the "church" from all of what it calls Israel.

I know of no dispensationalist authority who makes a distinction
between apostate physical Israel of the
Old Covenant and that Remnant of old Israel who were faithful to God.
That is, some may talk about those
of Old Covenant Israel who were faithful, but the dispensationalists
do not make the distinction between the
two Israels of the Old Covenant a fundamental starting doctrine of
their theology.

If you'd forget the seminary categories and doctrines of men and just concentrate on God's Holy Writ with understanding you'd have an easier time grasping God's Salvation Plan in relation to the seed of Israel and the Gentile nations.

Men's doctrine of Dispensationalism today DOES have many different ideas that were not part of Darby's original idea, including the idea that Israel is "left-behind" to go through the tribulation while Christ's Church is 'raptured' out before it starts (I do not hold to that idea, because it is not written anywhere in God's Word).

By Christ's time most of physical Israel followed the religion of the
Pharisees, or oral Talmudic Judaism. The majority of those in physical
Israel followed the religion of the Pharisees. This was the broad way
theology (Matthew 7: 13-15) of that time. Dispensationalism, or what can also
be called postponement theology, is the broad way theology of our time.

Wrong. Most of the seed of Israel were NOT EVEN IN THE HOLY LAND at Christ's first coming to die on the cross. God's Word tells you that too, starting in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 about the removing of the ten tribes to Assyria, never to return as a group. There was no recorded return of the ten scattered tribes to the holy land prior to Christ's first coming, nor prior to His second coming (which is still future today).

The MAJORITY of the ten tribes of Israel, called the "house of Israel" in God's Word, followed after Baalism, as written, not Phariseeism! Read your Bible history. The HOUSE OF ISRAEL made up TEN TRIBES of ISRAEL. The HOUSE OF JUDAH made up THREE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. Let's see, which group had more? The number 10 is greater... than the number 3 isn't it, duh?

The Book of Ezra tells us exactly how many Israelites returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity to Babylon, of ONLY 3 TRIBES. There is NO mention of any of the other ten tribes returning. Check me out on that, I dare you.

Hebrews Chapter Eleven lists
some of the faithful small Remnant of old Israel who lived by faith.
Those listed
in this chapter include Abel, Enouch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac,
Jacob, Moses, Gideon, and even the prostitute Rahab. "These all died in faith,
not having received the promises, but having seen them afar
off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that
they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." Hebrews 11: 13 There
were a few Hebrews at the time Christ was born who were faithful, such
as Simeon and Anna discussed in Luke Chapter 2.

Those of Hebrews 11 who showed Faith is pointing to The Gospel Promise in Old Testament times. They did not receive that Promise yet because Christ had not yet come in the flesh to die on the cross! But they knew, and that chapter shows they had Faith in God's Salvation, especially Abraham since all those of Faith have now become the children of Abraham like Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3.

There were many more who were faithful at Christ's first coming than just Simeon and Anna. The number of Apostles were few, but Scripture hints there were others who looked for Christ, even John the Baptist who also had disciples (Matt.11:2; John 3:25). It's a mistake assuming very few of faith existed then that were looking for Christ's appearance. And remember, John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisee's teaching (Matt.3:4-12).

Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism
that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God
expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.

The ten tribes of Israel... lost... their "distinction" as part of Israel, per God's Word and per history. Guess Mr. Dye must have missed that in his Bible studies. A real Bible scholar wouldn't miss that.

J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan...These considerations
all arise from a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....

In dispensationalism "Israel" is always one group, all those who claim
physical descent from Abraham.
At the Cross the promise to Abraham that his seed would be in a covenant with
God forever was changed from the physical seed, the literal DNA of
Abraham, to Abraham's
spiritual seed, to those who like Abraham, believed God. As Paul says
in Romans 9: 8 "They which
are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God."

He evidently missed a lot of Bible study too! In final, in MANY of the Books of God's Old Testament prophets, He declares He will GATHER the seed of Israel like corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground (Amos 9). Guess Mr. Pentecost must have missed all those prophets when studying his Bible. Why did he change his last name to 'Pentecost' anyway? Did he think it would mean more Christians would listen to him with a name like that? That's salesmanship! But not for those who actually study their Bible, but for the deceived who do not.

The ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles when The Gospel first began to preached to the western peoples by Christ's Apostles. That believing remnant of the seed of Israel believed as many Gentiles did, and both became Christ's Church in the West. The ten tribes were taken captive to Assyria, lost their knowledge as Israel, lost most of their Israelite customs, took new names, and became as... Gentiles, among... Gentiles. But they are NOT Gentiles. In final, with Christ's second coming, they are going to find that out. God is going to show them, and, the nations are going to then learn how it was that God scattered them because they rebelled against Him, and how He hid their identity from them, and from the world. They are... the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace that Apostle Paul was talking about in Romans 11:1-5. Christ is going to gather them, along with believing Gentiles, as ONE BODY when He comes the second time. It's written.

Followers of dispensationalism cling to their fundamental belief that
physical Israel, the children of the flesh, remain God's chosen
people. They cling to that belief in physical Israel as the chosen
people, which is called Jewish supremacy, because they think their
identity in Christ is based upon believing physical Israel is the
chosen people. This belief is in great part based on Romans 11: 17
that they as Gentiles of the "church" are grafted into the good olive
tree which, from dispensationalism, they think, is all physical
Israel. Yet Paul is not inconsistent in his doctrines. To be
consistent with Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 25-26, Romans 2: 28-29,
Galatians 3: 28-29 and other New Testament texts, that Israel into
which Gentile Christians are grafted into is Jerusalem which is above,
is free and is the mother of us all, and in Romans 9: 8 the children
of the promise to Abraham as his spiritual seed, rather than his
physical seed who are not born again.

The physical seed of Israel do... remain as the seed of Israel. It's ONLY those that refuse Christ that will be 'cut off' like Paul says in Romans 11. The idea of 'spiritual Israel' is about Christ's Salvation by The Spirit, which has always... been about God's concept of His Israel, not man's concept. And as God said in Jeremiah 33 about the nation of Israel, "If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them." (Jer.33:25-26).

So, the Dispensationalists believe God ended His covenant with day and night, and the ordinances of heaven and earth? Who are those 'men' that would think to go against God's Will in that? They are nothings. What God just before the Jer.33:25 verse shows what He thinks about those men of hot air that know nothing...

Jer 33:24
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, He hath even cast them off?" thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
(KJV)

The rest is pretty much the same 'junk' doctrine that goes directly against God's Word about the future gathering of His chosen believing remnant of Israel that will be rulers over all nations in Christ's future Kingdom.

 

[texian]

"The rest is pretty much the same 'junk' doctrine that goes directly against God's Word about the future gathering of His chosen believing remnant of Israel that will be rulers over all nations in Christ's future Kingdom. "

If I had said this, you dispensationalists would deny it is true that your system says this.

This is a worldly, carnal belief that physical Israel, those who claim to be the physical descendants of Abraham, are going to be the rulers
over "all nations in Christ's future kingdom." Christ's kingdom is not a physical one; it is a spiritual kingdom. Thats what he mean when he said "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18: 36 And in order for it to be a spiritual kingdom on earth, Satan must be bound as the angel binds him in Revelation 20: 1-2. As long as Satan is the ruler over this world, Christ would not establish his completed kingdom on this world..

Dispensationalism sticks to the physical,and this shows up in its honoring of physical Israel, which was largely unredeemed at the time of Christ, and remains so now.

No one here has refuted II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 24-26, Galatians 3: 28-29, Luke 13: 6-7, Matthew 3: 10, or Hebrews 10: 9. What is the standard dispensationalist interpretation of these scriptures?
You have just brought out the standard dispensationalist dialectic argument which sidesteps these scriptures. So far no one has made a clear statement, quoting scripture - the dispensationalist line - that Old Testament prophecy predicts the restoration of "all Israel" in the future. In Acts 15: 7-6, James quotes Amos 9: 11 (verse 16), which is one of several texts about a restoration of physical Israel. James says Amos 9: 11 that "And to this agree the words of the prophets: as it is written." This is Acts 15: 15. What the prophets agree to refers to Peter's statement in Acts 15: 9, that God put no difference between the Gentiles and the Christians who were formerly Jews, purifying their hearts by faith.

Clearly James says "prophets" in verse 15, not "prophet," referring just to Amos 9: 11. By acknowledging that God put no difference between those who were formerly Jews and those who had been Gentiles, and by saying the prophets agree with this, James has just agreed with Paul in doctrine, though the Jewish church at Jerusalem was in apostasy and continued. It bore no fruit after some point in the first century.

Because most who are followers of dispensationalism do not begin to question this system of interpretation when shown scripture which contradicts the system, then its quite possible these people are in the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 11. Its called the snare in Luke 21: 35, though the strong delusion and the snare can be applied to other false doctrines. Dispensationalism now rules over much of Christianity in the U.S. and its has long since been exported to many other nations of the world.

 

[veteran]

"The rest is pretty much the same 'junk' doctrine that goes directly against God's Word about the future gathering of His chosen believing remnant of Israel that will be rulers over all nations in Christ's future Kingdom. "

If I had said this, you dispensationalists would deny it is true that your system says this.

This is a worldly, carnal belief that physical Israel, those who claim to be the physical descendants of Abraham, are going to be the rulers
over "all nations in Christ's future kingdom." Christ's kingdom is not a physical one; it is a spiritual kingdom. Thats what he mean when he said "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18: 36 And in order for it to be a spiritual kingdom on earth, Satan must be bound as the angel binds him in Revelation 20: 1-2. As long as Satan is the ruler over this world, Christ would not establish his completed kingdom on this world..

Dispensationalism sticks to the physical,and this shows up in its honoring of physical Israel, which was largely unredeemed at the time of Christ, and remains so now.

No one here has refuted II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 24-26, Galatians 3: 28-29, Luke 13: 6-7, Matthew 3: 10, or Hebrews 10: 9. What is the standard dispensationalist interpretation of these scriptures?
You have just brought out the standard dispensationalist dialectic argument which sidesteps these scriptures. So far no one has made a clear statement, quoting scripture - the dispensationalist line - that Old Testament prophecy predicts the restoration of "all Israel" in the future. In Acts 15: 7-6, James quotes Amos 9: 11 (verse 16), which is one of several texts about a restoration of physical Israel. James says Amos 9: 11 that "And to this agree the words of the prophets: as it is written." This is Acts 15: 15. What the prophets agree to refers to Peter's statement in Acts 15: 9, that God put no difference between the Gentiles and the Christians who were formerly Jews, purifying their hearts by faith.

Clearly James says "prophets" in verse 15, not "prophet," referring just to Amos 9: 11. By acknowledging that God put no difference between those who were formerly Jews and those who had been Gentiles, and by saying the prophets agree with this, James has just agreed with Paul in doctrine, though the Jewish church at Jerusalem was in apostasy and continued. It bore no fruit after some point in the first century.

Because most who are followers of dispensationalism do not begin to question this system of interpretation when shown scripture which contradicts the system, then its quite possible these people are in the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 11. Its called the snare in Luke 21: 35, though the strong delusion and the snare can be applied to other false doctrines. Dispensationalism now rules over much of Christianity in the U.S. and its has long since been exported to many other nations of the world.

I'm not a Dispensationalist. Apparently, you don't know what Dispensationalism is really about. It's a doctrine that began with Darby and his pushing of the Pre-trib secret rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain. It was devised to prop up the Pre-trib rapture theory. I don't hold to that, but to God's Word as written.

Isa 54:1-3
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
(KJV)

Isa 61:5-9
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
(KJV)

Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

You mean the 12 tribes of Israel are GOING TO STILL EXIST IN CHRIST'S FUTURE KINGDOM?? Wow! I guess a lot people are going to be angry at that; no floating upon clouds in Christ's future Kingdom afterall; shucks!!! (Ezekiel 47-48 shows their establishing back to the lands God promised their fathers in final, all the tribes of Israel.)

But don't fret, for the Gentile nations are going to have kings and priests too, which is prophecy also in the OT Books of the prophets. No wonder most Churches don't like to cover the Old Testament Books of the prophets?!?


Amos 9:8-15
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, "The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
(KJV)

Ouch!!!

 

[texian]

"I'm not a Dispensationalist. Apparently, you don't know what Dispensationalism is really about. It's a doctrine that began with Darby and his pushing of the Pre-trib secret rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain. It was devised to prop up the Pre-trib rapture theory. I don't hold to that, but to God's Word as written."

If you know what dispensationalism is, and are not just being rhetorical above, quote the most influential dispensationalists to show how I have been wrong in presenting the theology. Include quotes from Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, and Wolvord. Don't just make blanket statements that don't convince.

What you said in your last post does not shoot down the interpretation of the list of scriptures I gave: II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 24-26, Galatians 3: 28-29, Luke 13: 6-7, Matthew 3: 10, or Hebrews 10: 9. Nor does it prove wrong the interpretation of Acts 15 that I showed, or the strong delusion and snare.

 

[Prentis]

Christ made one new man... In Him there is no more Jew nor Gentile. This is his bride. He destroyed the wall of partition and made a new covenant, according to which all those who are in Him are one.

Yet we try to rebuild what God has destroyed, and separate ourselves from the Jews. Judah is simply our brother, we are grafted in and meant to become one with those of Judah who are abiding in the vine.

The sons of Abraham are not his sons according to the flesh, but according to faith. When God builds the New Jerusalem, it will be for the saints. The standard is not being of a certain race (as the Pharisees thought), the standard is walking by faith.

God is no respecter of persons.

 

[veteran]

"I'm not a Dispensationalist. Apparently, you don't know what Dispensationalism is really about. It's a doctrine that began with Darby and his pushing of the Pre-trib secret rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain. It was devised to prop up the Pre-trib rapture theory. I don't hold to that, but to God's Word as written."

If you know what dispensationalism is, and are not just being rhetorical above, quote the most influential dispensationalists to show how I have been wrong in presenting the theology. Include quotes from Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, and Wolvord. Don't just make blanket statements that don't convince.

What you said in your last post does not shoot down the interpretation of the list of scriptures I gave: II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, Romans 9: 6-8, Galatians 4: 24-26, Galatians 3: 28-29, Luke 13: 6-7, Matthew 3: 10, or Hebrews 10: 9. Nor does it prove wrong the interpretation of Acts 15 that I showed, or the strong delusion and snare.

You really want me to cover all those? Fine. One at a time...

1.)
II Ki 21:11-14
11 Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:
12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
13 And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down.
14 And I will forsake the remnant of Mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;
(KJV)

What time was that for? One who can 'rightly divide' God's Word like Apostle Paul said to do well knows that prophecy was to the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem BEFORE their Babylon captivity by the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar!!! The "line of Samaria" and "plummet of the house of Ahab" is a reference to how God has punished the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" earlier than that time, back in 2 Kings 17, removing all the ten tribes as a people captive to the lands of Assyria and the Medes! That WAS history. It already happened. You'd know that IF you had kept reading there through the 2 Kings 24 Chapter. It manifested in the days of the prophets like Daniel and Ezekiel who were taken captive to Babylon with Judah for 70 years.

If you knew your Bible history you would have known that. A remnant of the "house of Judah" returned... to Jerusalem to build the 2nd temple and Jerusalem again in the days of Ezra. All ... that took place long... prior to Christ's first coming! Cannot just go into the OT and pick and chose a prophecy and apply it to a time outside of God's Timeline of events He gave in those Books. Prophecies in those Books that still apply today are ones that were NEVER fulfilled in Israel's history! And this 2 Kings 21:13 prophecy ain't one of them.

2.
Isa 29:16
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
(KJV)

Now that's a prophecy that has NOT happened yet today. It's about "Ariel", the city where David dwelt (Jerusalem). It has specific last days events marking with God bringing a final destruction upon Jerusalem, as it's pointing to Christ's second coming to Jerusalem to end its control by the Revelation beasts! But you sure won't get that understanding just from that single verse of Isa.29:16.

Is that about the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" for the last days? NOPE. Why? Because the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel" ARE NOT THERE IN JERUSALEM ANYMORE; THEY STILL HAVE YET TO RETURN today! That is ONLY about the small portion of the "house of Judah" in the holy land today that STILL REFUSES CHRIST JESUS! And many with them claiming to be Jews are NOT even of true Judah, but are of the nations like history in God's Word shows! Even the majority of Judah isn't there today, but are STILL scattered among the nations! So that proves nothing regarding the end of Israel per the later prophecies that I gave.

3.)
Jer 18:1-6
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear My words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel.
(KJV)

Once again, in what time of Israel's history was God giving that for? A bit of further reading there reveals it was a Message to the House of Judah that was still at Jerusalem JUST BEFORE GOD BROUGHT THE KING OF BABYLON UPON THEM! God was comparing what He did to the ten tribes for rebelling against to what He was getting ready to do to the house of Judah there at Jerusalem. God as The Potter, house of Israel (ten tribes) was like the clay, when He earlier brought the kings of Assyria upon the ten tribes, and took them all away captive to Assyria! The WHOLE Book of Jeremiah the prophet is historically about Judah's captivity to Babylon for 70 years by Nebuchadnezzar, along with a few future prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled today. Once again, these Jeremiah 18 verses ain't one of those yet to be fulfilled prophecies.


4.)
Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(KJV)

That's right, it's those who believe on Jesus Christ by Faith that are COUNTED FOR THE SEED IN ISAAC. But what idiot is going to try to say that a believing flesh Israelite is not BOTH literal seed of that PROMISE, AND ALSO SPIRITUAL SEED IN THAT PROMISE? Paul doesn't detract from that, for he continues about the literal seed of Israel with this...a part which many love... to leave out...

Rom 9:9-16
9 For this is the word of promise, 'At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.'
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God That sheweth mercy.
(KJV)

What in the world is Apostle Paul talking about? What is that idea, that BEFORE either Jacob and Esau were yet born, but still in the womb of Rebekah, neither having yet done good or evil, God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." ???? IT IS ABOUT GOD'S ELECTION OF SEED. Paul is revealing WE are NOT to question God's choosing.

Every time false prophets today teach that the seed of Israel is no longer important to God, they go DIRECTLY AGAINST THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION. Those false prophets simply don't have a clue of what they're talking about when they try... to go against this.


5.)
Gal 4:23-24
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
(KJV)

And just WHO is it that is still hanging onto that covenant which gendereth to bondage today? Islam is one of them, since Agar (Hagar) was Ishmael's mother (Arab peoples). Who else? The UNBELIEVING Jews. Are the Jews the same ones as the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) per God's Word? NOPE!!! Bible history in all of God's Word easily reveals that. I even covered the Scripture proof of it in a separate thread about it. Ain't no body been able to disprove it yet! The MAJORITY of Israelites are NOT Jews today. The majority of Israelites are the ten tribes of the "house of Israel". They were the majority of Israel BEFORE God split Israel after Solomon's days, and they STILL are today. Problem is, most of them today don't know who they are, nor does the world. But everyone... is going to know when Christ returns to gather them back to the holy lands of promise!!

When that gathering of Israel happens at Christ's return, THAT is when the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Jerusalem above that is free per The New Covenant, is going to be manifested on this earth where today's bondage Jerusalem is today!

So those who keeping pointing to unbelieving Jews as the ONLY seed of Israel today are either, liars, or Biblically unlearned, or deceived, or a combination thereof.


6.)
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)

Already covered that once before, here it is again. In Romans 11 Apostle Paul mentioned two different olive trees or branches, one regarding the seed of Israel, and the other about Gentiles. He said those of Israel that turn to Christ are graffed back into their OWN olive tree. Saved Israelites and Gentiles can have separate duties in God's Kingdom and still all together be of Christ's Salvation. And that's exactly what the OT prophets reveal in final. It does not mean that Gentiles will usurp Israel's inheritance which God has already promised them per His Purpose of election. This is why Apostle Paul revealed that in Rom.11 lest we believing Gentiles become conceited.

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(KJV)

7.)
Luke 13:6-7
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
(KJV)

And who was that about? It was especially about the false "crept in unawares" among the Jews at the time of Christ's first coming that specifically sought to kill Him. I don't expect you'd understand that concept of 'false Jews' like our Lord Jesus pointed to, since you think the only Israelites are Jews! Try reading Judges 2 & 3; 1 Kings 9:20-22; 1 Chronicles 2:55 of who the scribes were; Ezra 2 about the foreigner Nethinim priests, and Josephus' histories about the Jews between the 2nd temple time and Christ's first coming. Also the last verse of Zech.14, and the "crept in unawares" Message of the Book of Jude.

Only an poor deceived Biblically unlearned person would ever think to blame all the people of Israel for Christ's crucifixion, especially when the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" WEREN'T EVEN PRESENT IN THE HOLY LANDS IN THAT TIME, AND THE MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE OF JUDAH WERE STILL LIVING IN BABYLON AND ELSEWHERE!!! The only brethren today that is still a 'mystery' to are those who refuse to study all... of God's Word and Bible history for themselves!!! I really get tired of such Biblical ignorance! However, I know that kind of ignorance like a famine for hearing God's Word is happening today per written Bible prophecy for the last days (Amos 8). That ignorance can be corrected though, by simply starting in Genesis and going all the way through Revelation, then doing it again, and again, as many times as it takes.


8.)
Matt 3:10
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(KJV)

Yes, and just WHO did our Lord Jesus especially point to in Matthew 13 about that?!? The "tares" in His parable of the tares of the field. Those who try to say that means Israel are false prophets, and are speaking for the devil himself. That's who specifically wants all the seed of Israel destroyed today!!! I just showed where Apostle Paul quoted from the OT prophets in Romans 11 that all Israel will be saved at Christ's return. Problem is, you don't know who that really means, for if God has blinded many of TRUE Judah today, and Paul says that blindness was so Salvation could go also to the Gentiles, and that blindness will one day be removed, then to point to them as going into the fire is grave.... error, and Biblical ignorance!

9.)
Heb 10:9
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(KJV)

Thing is, you NEVER heard me support ANY idea that the Old Covenant is still in effect today. Christ Jesus ended the Old Covenant with His death on the cross. I'm a Christian, and I am NOT Jewish (not that I know of anyway). YOU simply have been taught by false prophets that the seed of Israel per God's purpose of election no longer has any place in His Salvation Plan. God's Word says different, and it's not about the Old Covenant, for those of the seed of Israel are going to eventually... turn to the New Covenant Jesus Christ. Why? Because GOD Himself Promised it!!! And NO MAN is going to disannul it!!!

I just hate seeing any of my Christian bethren suffering through the coming great let down their false prophet teachers have got them falsely pumped up about, that the nation of Israel per God's election no longer has anything to do with Christ Jesus and The New Covenant.

 

[texian]

Is all of this interpretation what most of the classical dispensationalists would agree with? You found ways for most of these texts to avoid
the interpretation that Old Testament prophecy predicts the transformation of that Israel which was physical into that Israel which becomes spiritual and that Christ as the dresser in the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:6-7 did not give physical Israel another chance by himself coming as a man and dying on the cross, which in this process of transformation pruned down Israel to a small Remnant who accepted him. Are you not changing the Gospel itself in doing this?

 

[Prentis]

Is all of this interpretation what most of the classical dispensationalists would agree with? You found ways for most of these texts to avoid
the interpretation that Old Testament prophecy predicts the transformation of that Israel which was physical into that Israel which becomes spiritual and that Christ as the dresser in the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:6-7 did not give physical Israel another chance by himself coming as a man and dying on the cross, which in this process of transformation pruned down Israel to a small Remnant who accepted him. Are you not changing the Gospel itself in doing this?

Well said. It is not about Israel according to the flesh, but Israel according to the Spirit. (Israel means 'he who reigns with God', which reminds us of a promise of Jesus in Revelation)

Accorrding to my understanding, God does indeed which to bring the Jews back in the fold. But this is not in a carnal way... When the gentiles will make the Jews jealous enough because they have what the Jews see as being promised to God, maybe then the Jews will see that Christ is the way.

Again. I claim no absoluty on this... Only this is what I understand according to this.

[sup]25[/sup] For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [sup]26[/sup] And so all Israel will be saved,[sup][g][/sup] as it is written: (Romans 11)
I think the fulness has more to do with the fulness of God within some gentiles, than a number of Gentiles. And all Israel has little to do with the carnal concept, once again. Rather it means both Judah in Christ, and Ephraim in Christ (the gentiles) are made one stick, and all of those are saved. :)

 

[tomwebster]

tex

Who do you think physical Israel is?

 

[texian]

More important is which Israel were the Gentile believers grafted into in Romans 11: 19-20. Since dispensationalism says, in effect, that there is one Israel, not accepting Paul's two Israels of Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26, then a follower of that theology would say Gentiles are grafted into Israel, implying it is the good olive tree. This makes an important part of the Gospel ambiguous.

Important parts of the Gospel are who was Christ sent to (the lost sheep of the house of Israel), into which Israel were Gentiles grafted into (Romans 11: 20 says unbelievers, and we assume this means those of Israel who were unbelievers, were cut off, leaving the good olive tree the believing Israel), what is the identity of a Gentile believer in Christ (a Gentile believer becomes part of believing Israel, and is of Israel, according to Romans 11: 17), and how does a non-believing Israelite or Gentile become saved (by believing in Christ, believing his Gospel in all aspects and being born.
again).

Dispensationalism contradicts these important parts of the Gospel by not accepting Paul's two Israels, by not fully understanding the meaning of being grafted into believing Israel, and important, by claiming God now has two peoples, Israel, as one group without any distinction being made between Paul's two Israels, and the "church," which is just a meeting, assembly or congregation of believers, so the theology makes the "church" into a separate body of Christ, different from the Israel Christ came to save, but which he, in that process, transformed into born again Israel..

 

[Prentis]

Interesting Tex. I'm not sure I grasped everything you meant, so correct me if I understand you wrong... Here's the understanding I have of it.

The Israel of God is God's people, Jewish or Gentile, that are in Christ. Israel according to the flesh is the Jews, currently living in a place called Israel. They are actually only Jews though. (Judah, hence why the Bible says (and Romans called it) Judaea).

Being a Jew doesn't make you God's people. Just like being Christian by name doesn't either. Jesus called the Pharisees 'sons of the devil'. The same can be true of us today. God has his people, which are indeed Israel according to the Spirit.

Israel according to the flesh is simply the old testament version of Israel. Though the thing is, with ten lost tribes, there's only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, united under the name of Judah.

The Israel of God is Jews and Genties (Ephraim, Ezekiel 37) that are united in Christ, the wall of partition being destroyed and the new creation in them makes them one.

 

[veteran]

Is all of this interpretation what most of the classical dispensationalists would agree with? You found ways for most of these texts to avoid
the interpretation that Old Testament prophecy predicts the transformation of that Israel which was physical into that Israel which becomes spiritual and that Christ as the dresser in the parable of the fig tree in Luke 13:6-7 did not give physical Israel another chance by himself coming as a man and dying on the cross, which in this process of transformation pruned down Israel to a small Remnant who accepted him. Are you not changing the Gospel itself in doing this?

Sorry, but your Biblical ignorance is astounding. You even show total ignorance as to what Christ's parable of the fig tree was about. It's connected with God's promise to bring the seed of Judah (good basket of figs) back to the holy lands of promise and NEVER remove them out again. The evil basket of figs was to be joined among them. it's written in Jer.24 and was fulfilled in 1948 when the state of Israel became a literal nation on earth again!

When Paul quoted from Isaiah 59 in Romans 11 when he said all Israel will be saved, just who did he mean by that?

Interesting Tex. I'm not sure I grasped everything you meant, so correct me if I understand you wrong... Here's the understanding I have of it.

The Israel of God is God's people, Jewish or Gentile, that are in Christ. Israel according to the flesh is the Jews, currently living in a place called Israel. They are actually only Jews though. (Judah, hence why the Bible says (and Romans called it) Judaea).

Being a Jew doesn't make you God's people. Just like being Christian by name doesn't either. Jesus called the Pharisees 'sons of the devil'. The same can be true of us today. God has his people, which are indeed Israel according to the Spirit.

Israel according to the flesh is simply the old testament version of Israel. Though the thing is, with ten lost tribes, there's only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, united under the name of Judah.

The Israel of God is Jews and Genties (Ephraim, Ezekiel 37) that are united in Christ, the wall of partition being destroyed and the new creation in them makes them one.

And yet another one that is completely deceived about Israel today, and their relation to God's Plan of Salvation through Christ per His Word!

 

[texian]

Prentis

You understand it pretty well. You say

"Israel according to the flesh is simply the old testament version of Israel. Though the thing is, with ten lost tribes, there's only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin, united under the name of Judah."

There was a Remnant in Old Testament Israel who lived by faith. Some of them are listed in Hebrews 11. In Matthew 27: 52-53 some Old Testament saints were resurrected and appeared in Jerusalem.

Some will insist upon a distinction between Judah, the Jews, and others of the lost ten tribes, a Remnant of which returned to their home land. II Chronicles 11: 14-17, II Chronicles 15: 9-10, and II Chronicles 30: 10 record that some of the tribes of the north, called Israel, returned.

A Remnant of the "Lost Tribes" had returned to join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin four or five hundred years before Christ. Ezra returned from Babylonian exile in about 458 B.C. By the time of Christ the Remnant of the northern tribes who returned home had become one with the Jews, so that in the Book of Acts, where "Israel" and "the Jews," or "Jews" or both terms are used so many times, one could not find a distinction between descendants of the lost ten tribes of the north and the Jews as the tribes of the south. The Apostles often referred to them as "men of Israel" when addressing them, but Luke often calls the same guys "the Jews."

What followers of dispenstionalism will not hear, and also most in the churches who are not into dispensationalism, is that Christian believers are of Israel. Yet New Testament scripture does support this. The much debated Romans 11: 26 text which the dispensationalists insist means all Israel and all Jews are to be saved sometime in the future, if interpreted consistently with Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 means by "all Israel" everyone who is saved, Jew and Gentile. Paul is not being merely rhetorical in saying "all Israel shall be saved." he means that everyone who is Israel will be saved, because all who are of Israel, or believing Israel, are saved. In Galatians 6: 16 he uses the article, the Greek "ton" before Israel to distinguish that Israel which is believing Israel from the Israel which is unbelieving. Had he said "the Israel (which) is of God," it would have been even more clear, and this is, in effect what he means. Apparently, Paul uses "Israel" in only these two places to mean believing Israel. However, in Romans 2: 28-29, in Galatians 4: 25-26, and in Romans 9:8 the implication is that he is making a distinction between a believing Remnant of Israel and a larger group who are unbelieving Israel.

 

[texian]

"Sorry, but your Biblical ignorance is astounding. You even show total ignorance as to what Christ's parable of the fig tree was about. It's connected with God's promise to bring the seed of Judah (good basket of figs) back to the holy lands of promise and NEVER remove them out again. The evil basket of figs was to be joined among them. it's written in Jer.24 and was fulfilled in 1948 when the state of Israel became a literal nation on earth again!"

Since scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit (II Peter 1: 20, II Timothy 3: 16) there is some consistency in the use of metaphor in scripture. In
Matthew 21: 19 the fig tree is again used as a metaphor for unbelieving Israel, all of unbelieving Israel. In Matthew 21: 19-20 Christ found a fig tree which bore no figs, that is, this represents all unbelieving Israel, not just a promise to Judah to bring them back into their land.

In Luke 13: 6-9 the metaphor of the vineyard is used. The vineyard is used consistently to represent Israel, all of Israel. For example, in Matthew 21: 33-41, the vineyard is all of Israel, and the husbandmen are the religious leaders of Israel, the Pharisees and Sadducees. But the Pharisees and Sadducees beat, kill and stone the servants of the owner, who is God the Father. Then God sent his son, but they killed him so that they could take his inheritance, in other words so they could take over the entire vineyard, all of Israel.

The fig tree in Matthew 21: 19 is all of Israel, who as a majority, bore no spiritual fruit. The vineyard in Matthew 21: 33-41 is all Israel, as in Luke 13: 6-9. In Luke 13: 7 God the Father said that because all Israel, that is, the great majority of its people, bore no spiritual fruit, to cut down the fig tree which represents unfruitful Israel.

Israel was given promises. But Israel was also warned to obey God or suffer the consequences. Just in Deuteronomy 28 God promises Israel that if they do not obey all his commandments, that they will be cursed, and in verse 20, "The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me." Thats exactly what God did in the defeat and captivity of the ten tribes of the north and later for the tribes of Judah in the south. In 70 A.D. God sent the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem for the sins of Israel.

How could God fulfill both his promises to Israel to bless them, and at the same time fulfill his promise to punish them for disobedience? He redefined Israel, transformed it into a small Remnant of believing Israel.. No, the "church" did not replace Israel; Israel was changed, not replaced. An understanding of the parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18: 1-6 will show that God remade the vessel which was marred into one that seemed good to him, out of the same lump of clay. How hard is this to understand - if you don't try to make it into something other than it says?

The people of Israel who moved to Palestine , which the United Nations made a nation in 1948, are not believing Israel. They are important in end time events, and World War III will likely be centered on them. But they are a vessel of dishonor, and not a vessel of honor (Romans 9: 21) Claiming they will all be saved sometime in the future does not make them a vessel of honor. Read Acts 15: 7-17 carefully, especially verse 15 where James says "to this agree the words of the prophets..." The prophets he is talking about are all those who talked about a restoration of Israel, which dispensationalists insist will happen when "all Israel shall be saved." during their seven year tribulation.

I don't deny that in the end times there will be hard times and natural and man-made disasters. But there is not likely to be a sudden transition from "normal" times to "the Great tribulation." Christ only says in Matthew 24: 21 that "then shall be great tribulation..." The dispensationalists won't agree on who is their one man super anti-Christ world ruler, and so they will not know exactly when their tribulation begins anyway. But the more times get tougher, and the more people are killed by unusual natural disasters, the more the economy fails, the more oppression of people there is, the more killing in wars, and so on, the more likely it will be that this is what Christ was talking about.

 

[Prentis]

Okay. I agree with that Texian.

I also think Revelation speaks of Israel, the 144 000 alegorically. They are indeed those who believe, are grafted in, and the believing Jews.

God bless