The Issue of Calvinism.

[Enoch111]

If a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, how is it that you say that he is regenerated before that?

That is called putting the cart before the horse. Pure fantasy.

No one is born again BEFORE they receive the gift of the Spirit, and no one receives the Spirit until and unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, calling upon the name of the Lord, and receiving Christ as Lord and Savior.

Now when they heard this, [the Gospel] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37,38)

It is only after the Spirit takes residence within that (a) the sinner is born again, born of the Spirit, born of God, born from above and (b) the dead spirit is brought to life, or "quickened", so that the one who has been saved can (1) communicate with God through the Spirit and (2) comprehend spiritual truths as revealed in Scripture. Thus the unction or anointing of the Spirit comes into play, and the Spirit guides the believer into all truth.

 

[Mjh29]

If a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, how is it that you say that he is regenerated before that?

Because if we are not regenerated, we are still in the flesh and therefore cannot accept the gift of faith or salvation.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

If a man is born again through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, how is it that you say that he is regenerated before that?

You keep seeing yourself as the cause of your salvation. Every single thing you post points to what you did. Then you take offense to posts and Scripture that rightly give God all the glory.

 

[justbyfaith]

Because if we are not regenerated, we are still in the flesh and therefore cannot accept the gift of faith or salvation.

But he is born again through faith in Jesus, according to your words. So how is it that faith comes only after being born again?

 

[justbyfaith]

You keep seeing yourself as the cause of your salvation. Every single thing you post points to what you did. Then you take offense to posts and Scripture that rightly give God all the glory.

Completely beside the point. What matters is what scripture teaches; and it teaches that we are born again through faith in Jesus Christ. How then is it that you say that a man is born again before he puts his faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[Mjh29]

But he is born again through faith in Jesus, according to your words. So how is it that faith comes only after being born again?

Because in order to be born again, one must be regenerated by God. Then God gives the faith. As I stated earlier, the 2 are so closely related that they happen almost simultaneously because both are gifts from God

 

[justbyfaith]

So you are saying that regeneration and the new birth are two separate things?

 

[justbyfaith]

From my perspective, what you call "regeneration" I call the drawing of the Father of a person to Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'm not following....you appear to be speaking a different language.

I have not been taught the same things that you have been taught...you are going to have to explain to me what you are trying to say by this, in your own words.

In my own words? Been thinking on your question since yesterday and really don’t have an answer in my own words. The purpose of the quotes earlier was hoping you would consider how the present sufferings are not worthy of being compared to the glory which shall be revealed in the body of Christ when the body is seen as He is. (Romans 8:18). He came not to condemn the world but to save it. What about the body God prepared for the Son? Vessels of mercy. Prepared how? In that it is not sacrifice but mercy God desires? Could it also be said the body as the Head came not to condemn but to save? (Of a life-giving quickening Spirit). Present sufferings Not worthy of being compared to the glory revealed in the children ...as He is so are they. If we look for the destruction to be the end of those not in Christ ...there is another way for destruction of the wicked and it is mercy.

 

[Enoch111]

Because in order to be born again, one must be regenerated by God. Then God gives the faith.

That would be a total REVERSAL of what is revealed in Scripture. God gives faith through the Gospel, under the power of the Spirit, BEFORE anyone is born again.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

So what is the order of regeneration according to Scripture:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

2. Receive Him as Lord and Savior.

3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

4. Be regenerated supernaturally.

5. Receive the right and the authority to be called a child of God.

NOTE: God will not give the Spirit to unbelievers.

 

[Dave L]

That is NOT what I said--why accuse me of "welshing" when I never engaged on the point of my testimony? I have given portions of my testimony here for everyone to read--go back and read them.

I asked two questions which you failed to answer:

1) And that is what you think I am doing? [confessing a "false Christ"] and 2) On what are you basing that opinion?

If you don't answer them, neither will I answer your question, "What do you base your salvation on (sic)?"

I do not know if you are saved. I hope so, but only the Lord knows.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I do not know if you are saved. I hope so, but only the Lord knows.

I think that is likely a dodge. You know what you were insinuating. Are you taking it back?

 

[SovereignGrace]

26 “So I sent messengers from the wilderness of Kedemoth to Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying, 27 ‘Let me pass through your land, I will travel only on the highway; I will not turn aside to the right or to the left. 28 You will sell me food for money so that I may eat, and give me water for money so that I may drink, only let me pass through on foot, 29 just as the sons of Esau who live in Seir and the Moabites who live in Ar did for me, until I cross over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God is giving to us.’ 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. 31 The LORD said to me, ‘See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to occupy, that you may possess his land.’[Deuteronomy 2]

This, I have a feeling, will be misconstrued as free will.

1 “Then we turned and went up the road to Bashan, and Og, king of Bashan, with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not fear him, for I have delivered him and all his people and his land into your hand; and you shall do to him just as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived at Heshbon.’ 3 So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. 4 We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. 6 We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. 7 But all the animals and the spoil of the cities we took as our booty.[/b]

I guess this will be misconstrued as free will, too.

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.[Psalm 21:1]

Another clear example of free will.

Just like this ”In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.[James 1:18] is misconstrued as free will.

 

[Dave L]

I think that is likely a dodge. You know what you were insinuating. Are you taking it back?

I do not know who is saved and who is not. I can only guess.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

26 “So I sent messengers from the wilderness of Kedemoth to Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying, 27 ‘Let me pass through your land, I will travel only on the highway; I will not turn aside to the right or to the left. 28 You will sell me food for money so that I may eat, and give me water for money so that I may drink, only let me pass through on foot, 29 just as the sons of Esau who live in Seir and the Moabites who live in Ar did for me, until I cross over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God is giving to us.’ 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. 31 The LORD said to me, ‘See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to occupy, that you may possess his land.’[Deuteronomy 2]

This, I have a feeling, will be misconstrued as free will.

1 “Then we turned and went up the road to Bashan, and Og, king of Bashan, with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Edrei. 2 But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not fear him, for I have delivered him[/b] and all his people and his land into your hand; and you shall do to him just as you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived at Heshbon.’ 3 So the LORD our God delivered Og also, king of Bashan, with all his people into our hand, and we smote them until no survivor was left. 4 We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. 6 We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. 7 But all the animals and the spoil of the cities we took as our booty.[/b]

I guess this will be misconstrued as free will, too.

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.[Psalm 21:1]

Another clear example of free will.

Just like this ”In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.[James 1:18] is misconstrued as free will.

Well, these anti-calvinists don't believe in God's Sovereignty and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass. They rather see the world in chaos, molecules of his creation running rampant, arbitrary things happening here and there, but God having no part in it.

But he does reign Sovereignly. He justly judged the world at the fall, has removed restraint, revealing his wrath, and is executing it justly on society. Then he exercises mercy on whom he wills. That is our world situation in a nutshell.

Why do they reject his total Sovereignty and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass? Well, face it, they want to see themselves as in control via free will. They are their own gods and feel more secure thinking they control their destiny than if God does, and if they get to choose themselves into heaven instead of believing and trusting his purpose and will revealed in Scripture. Yes, he is Sovereign over this too, choosing to redeem from his just wrath whom he wills. They charge God as being unjust (unfair, same thing!) for doing so.

This is nothing less than distrust of God, unbelief, and enthroning of self.

And if they so desire, in their control over God, at anytime they can allow him to do for them if they so desire. He is at their beck and call. They get to tell God if they desire heaven or not, whether or not they will allow God to do this or that in their lives -- they are in total control.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, these anti-calvinists don't believe in God's Sovereignty and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass. They rather see the world in chaos, molecules of his creation running rampant, arbitrary things happening here and there, but God having no part in it.

But he does reign Sovereignly. He justly judged the world at the fall, has removed restraint, revealing his wrath, and is executing it justly on society. Then he exercises mercy on whom he wills. That is our world situation in a nutshell.

Why do they reject his total Sovereignty and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass? Well, face it, they want to see themselves as in control via free will. They are their own gods and feel more secure thinking they control their destiny than if God does, and if they get to choose themselves into heaven instead of believing and trusting his purpose and will revealed in Scripture. Yes, he is Sovereign over this too, choosing to redeem from his just wrath whom he wills. They charge God as being unjust (unfair, same thing!) for doing so.

This is nothing less than distrust of God, unbelief, and enthroning of self.

And if they so desire, in their control over God, at anytime they can allow him to do for them if they so desire. He is at their beck and call. They get to tell God if they desire heaven or not, whether or not they will allow God to do this or that in their lives -- they are in total control.

Exactly! I said they don’t trust God unless He agrees with them on EVERYTHING. They have God agreeing with them or He’s not worthy of their praise, worship, love and adoration.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, these anti-calvinists don't believe in God's Sovereignty and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass. They rather see the world in chaos, molecules of his creation running rampant, arbitrary things happening here and there, but God having no part in it.

As I stated a few days ago, they promote either deism or something deistic. This here I quoted of yours is deism to the core.

All He did was started the world spinning, stood back and watched the chaos, seeing it’s the gentlemenly thing to do.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jesus sent the apostles to spread the gospel and to convert people to Christ.

By your belief that is pointless since everyone is already predestined to be either follow Christ or go to hell.

It does not matter if you know or not know. It is already decided.

Claiming you have a free will but do not have a free will is a contradiction in terms. Either you do or you don't.

So if you miss someone who was supposed to be saved, God is wrong.

If you convince someone who is not supposed to be saved then God is wrong.

Your theology is completely full of holes.

The problem with this is. ...nobody believes or thinks what you have posted.
It is a complete lack of understanding.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Exactly! I said they don’t trust God unless He agrees with them on EVERYTHING. They have God agreeing with them or He’s not worthy of their praise, worship, love and adoration.

Yep, therefore they praise themselves, their very own god, made in the image of their fallen selves. Their aversion to giving God all the glory is telltale, and fitting, after all they believe they did something to merit salvation, so God does not receive all the glory.

They reject unconditional election, and preach conditional election, which proves they turn grace into merit.

What an utterly false gospel, and what abject shame there is in their false message!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The problem with this is. ...nobody believes or thinks what you have posted.
It is a complete lack of understanding.

Per usual.