The James's in Scripture.

[James Macbeth]

Matthew (Levi) of Alphaeus (Mk. 2:14) the tax collector was chosen to be an apostle:

"And when Jesus passed on from hence, he saw a man sitting in the custom house, named Matthew; and he saith to him: Follow me. And he rose up and followed him." (Matt. 9:9)

"And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him." (Matt. 10:2-4)

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Apostle James of Alphaeus and Apostle Matthew (Levi) of Alphaeus were brothers. Of the twelve apostles, only Apostle Jude (Judas/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus is called this James's brother (Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13).

More than one man named "Alphaeus" existed.

Furthermore, the evidence in the OP illustrates Apostle James of Alphaeus was the brother of Simon, Joseph, and Apostle Jude (Judas/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3), all of whom were Jesus's brothers as in kinsmen, specifically cousins. It also illustrates this James was "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James as well.

Challenge that evidence, if you think you can.

Both of their last names were Alphaeus.
And in the movie, Jesus of Nazareth, this is the case too.

 

[Anima]

Both of their last names were Alphaeus.

It's not a last name, rather a first name shared by the fathers of Apostle James and Apostle Matthew. More than one man named "Alphaeus" existed, as shown in post #40.

 

[James Macbeth]

It's not a last name, rather a first name shared by the fathers of Apostle James and Apostle Matthew. More than one man named "Alphaeus" existed, as shown in post #40.

No, they were bothers, if not, why the last name?

 

[Anima]

No, they were bothers, if not, why the last name?

Refer back to post #40 for why they weren't brothers.

 

[James Macbeth]

Refer back to post 40 for why they were not brothers.

I did you reasoning is gobshite, they were brothers, makes more sense.
Even the movie got it right.

 

[Anima]

I did you reasoning is gobshite...

You can't recognize a first name when you see one, so I'm not surprised you can't understand post #40. Too advanced for you.

 

[James Macbeth]

You confuse a first name with a last name, so I'm not surprised you can't understand post #40. Too advanced for you.

In the movie they were brothers..duh.

 

[James Macbeth]

Alphaeus
The name of the father of two of Jesus' disciples: Matthew and James, son of Alphaeus.

 

[Anima]

Well, it's obviously not clear cut. I hesitate to rely on a Fragment of Papias for any hard and fast conclusions here. Jerome's and Eusebius's writings quote in the OP do not declare James the Les and James the Just/Bishop/Brother to be the same person. Ditto for Josephus, Clement and Hegesippus.

Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD], who's said to have been a disciple of Apostle John, indicated "Apostle James of Alphaeus" and "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" were the same person, as well as the brother of Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), and that these four were the sons of Mary and Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas).

Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said this James was the son of Jesus's mother's sister, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas, cf. Jn. 19:25), which coincides with Papias's testimony, and thus Jerome would've known he was Apostle James of Alphaeus as well.

Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Just," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said, "Apostle Paul makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Flavius Josephus [c. 37-100 CE] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

There's crossover agreement between these sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, in the particular testimonies provided. Therefore, these Jameses having been the same person is clear cut, to anyone who chooses not to be willfully ignorant about this that is.

 

[FHII]

"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen." (Jn. 19:25). So, according to your logic, you must believe Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas were siblings with the same name. Lol.

That is a misuse of my logic. I said it was rare. I did not say always.

With that, you are assuming the were cousins. It could be that they were siblings, but even I doubt that. They could also be mere close friends and fellow believers in Christ. "Sister" can mean that too.

There's evidence in the OP that confirms Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas were sisters, and clarifies them as sisters-in-law. Do you have no other argument for why that evidence is insufficient, other than its not in the Bible, which I've refuted below?

No, there isn't unless you are just going to quote yourself.

Now, it wouldn't be "awkward and not probable" if context switched from immediate to extended family if Jesus didn't have siblings, and the evidence in the OP illustrates He didn't.

Yes it would be and it is. It's a point t you are just brushing aside.

Again, the Bible doesn't contain all there is to know, which means there's more true information not found in it, and thus is considered "extra-biblical." If you don't accept that fact, you're choosing to be willfully ignorant, and thus limiting yourself in knowledge and understanding of the reality that God created. Now, there's also false extra-biblical information, but because there's true information as well, no one should automatically dismiss any extra-biblical information, rather discern, and trust God to help them know what's true and false.

I argue that the Bible contains all that WE NEED TO KNOW. And I want you to know that I have read many of these early Christian writers. Not just internet articles, but their actual works. I ha e downloaded/purchased their works and studied them. Furthermore, I have purchased, downloaded and checked out from the library commentaries on them as well as general histories of the times. So you aren't conversing with a Google orwikipedia "expert" here.

Now, from the Bible itself I can show you that we are to be cautious of these people! I admire them, I praise them and I have read their works. Not all, but I have delved into them significantly.

I hold the real early Christians (Jesus, Matthew, Paul, John, etc) as having authority over them. But I read them with skepticism. If they don't line up with the Bible or I see they have an agenda (which I strongly feel this is the case here.... and I suspect you have the same agenda because we are ignoring the 400 lb gorilla in the room), then I dismiss them.

I hold the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and the only thing I trust. I do not hold up other writings of uninspired men who are validated as equal to the Bible. Now, do you do the same?

I am skeptical of them, but I actually have read them. Thus, I am not ignorant... nor willfully ignorant. I cannot be ignorant when I have willfully read a d studied their works.

And with that... you have called this "your research". You may have done said research, but you haven't said anything I haven't read before on this forum. Technically, research and a review of literature is not the same thing.

 

[FHII]

What you don't consider is that while Apostle James of Alphaeus became a Christian, he was still very much a Jew as well, in his mentality, view of the world, and his approach to religion. He didn't lose Jewish habits overnight, nor over the course of just three years with Jesus. So, when he became Bishop of Jerusalem, he was trying to incorporate Jewish customs with this new religion called Christianity, a religion that grew up within Judaism itself. Therefore, this argument of yours is weak, even more so compared to the evidence I've presented.

Well that's a pretty good show! I agree. But this is not a man whose understanding was opened. Did he ever refute this? No. He didn't. John did. Peter did. Jude did. Paul did. Peter still hung on to the doctrine of faith with works. I do not believe this man was an Apostle.

 

[Anima]

That is a misuse of my logic. I said it was rare. I did not say always.

You also said, "...the primary meaning of the words sister and brother is "siblings". Thus, that's what you start with and let contexttell you otherwise." So, according to this logic of yours, you should believe Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas (Alphaeus) were siblings, since they were called "sisters" in Jn. 19:25, and there's no context in that verse as to what other kind of sisters they were.

There's evidence in the OP that confirms Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) were sisters, and clarifies them as sisters in-law, because the latter was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas).

Here is something I left out concerning Matthew 13:55 which shows Context: the doubters mentioned Jesus was a carpenter's son. No doubt that was Joseph his step father. They mentioned Mary as his mother and wife of Joseph. So we have a nuclear family here so far: Jesus, Joseph and Mary. After that, there is mention of so called "cousins": James, Simon, Jose and Jude as well as sister? The context switch from nuclear to extended family is awkward and not probable.

The Nazarenes in the crowd speaking in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3 were literally referring to Jesus's relatives among them: "...here with us". This context allows for two possibilities: (i) only nuclear, or (ii) nuclear and extended, family were present. Furthermore, the words "brother" and "sister" can be used to refer to various types of kin.

The evidence in the OP confirms those called Jesus's brothers in this scene, Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), were His kin, and clarifies them as cousins, because they were sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas) and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Jn. 19:25). Therefore, Jesus's unnamed sisters could've been extended family as well.

And I want you to know that I have read many of these early Christian writers. Not just internet articles, but their actual works. I ha e downloaded/purchased their works and studied them. Furthermore, I have purchased, downloaded and checked out from the library commentaries on them as well as general histories of the times...

...I have read their works. Not all, but I have delved into them significantly.

The arguments you've presented thus far don't reflect that. Regarding those early Christian writers in question, the following are summaries of each's testimony regarding James:

Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD], who's said to have been a disciple of Apostle John, indicated "Apostle James of Alphaeus" and "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" were the same person, as well as the brother of Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), and that these four were the sons of Mary and Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas).

Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said this James was the son of Jesus's mother's sister, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas, cf. Jn. 19:25), which coincides with Papias's testimony, and thus Jerome would've known he was Apostle James of Alphaeus as well.

Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Just," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said, "Apostle Paul makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Flavius Josephus [c. 37-100 CE] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

There's crossover agreement between these sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, in the particular testimonies provided. Therefore, these Jameses having been the same person is clear cut, to anyone who chooses not to be willfully ignorant about this that is. Do you have evidence for why these sources's testimonies regarding James are not credible?

I hold the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and the only thing I trust.

I hold God as the ultimate source of Truth I trust. This isn't to say the Bible isn't a source of truth and can't be trusted, but for you to say, "I hold the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and the only thing I trust," unintentionally sounds like you're holding it above God.

I do not hold up other writings of uninspired men who are validated as equal to the Bible.

I know there's always been people, even to this day, who are valid sources about things, even though their names, testimonies, and works couldn't be included in the compiling of the Bible, because God has never stopped interacting with His creation.

 

[Jim B]

You also said, "...the primary meaning of the words sister and brother is "siblings". Thus, that's what you start with and let contexttell you otherwise." So, according to this logic of yours, you should believe Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas (Alphaeus) were siblings, since they were called "sisters" in Jn. 19:25, and there's no context in that verse as to what other kind of sisters they were.

There's evidence in the OP that confirms Jesus's mother Mary and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Alphaeus) were sisters, and clarifies them as sisters in-law, because the latter was married to Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas).



The Nazarenes in the crowd speaking in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3 were literally referring to Jesus's relatives among them: "...here with us". This context allows for two possibilities: (i) only nuclear, or (ii) nuclear and extended, family were present. Furthermore, the words "brother" and "sister" can be used to refer to kin, not just specifically siblings.

The evidence in the OP confirms those called Jesus's brothers in this scene, Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), were His kin, and clarifies them as cousins, because they were sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas) and Mary of Cleophas/Clopas (Jn. 19:25). Therefore, Jesus's unnamed sisters could've been extended family as well.



The arguments you've presented thus far don't reflect that. Regarding those early Christian writers in question, the following are summaries of each's testimony regarding James:

Papias of Hierapolis [c. 60–130 AD], who's said to have been a disciple of Apostle John, indicated "Apostle James of Alphaeus" and "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" were the same person, as well as the brother of Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Judas/Thaddeus), and that these four were the sons of Mary and Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas).

Jerome of Stridon [c. 347–420 CE] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said this James was the son of Jesus's mother's sister, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas, cf. Jn. 19:25), which coincides with Papias's testimony, and thus Jerome would've known he was Apostle James of Alphaeus as well.

Eusebius of Caesarea [c. 260–340 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Just," and the "author of the Epistle of James," were the same person. He also said, "Apostle Paul makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Clement of Alexandria [c. 150–215 AD] indicated "James the Bishop of Jerusalem" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Flavius Josephus [c. 37-100 CE] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

Hegesippus [c. 110-180 AD] indicated "James the brother of the Lord" and "James the Just" were the same person.

There's crossover agreement between these sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, in the particular testimonies provided. Therefore, these Jameses having been the same person is clear cut, to anyone who chooses not to be willfully ignorant about this that is. Do you have evidence for why these sources's testimonies regarding James are not credible?



I hold God as the ultimate source of Truth I trust. This isn't to say the Bible isn't a source of truth and can't be trusted, but for you to say, "I hold the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and the only thing I trust," unintentionally sounds like you're holding it above God.



I know there's always been people, even to this day, who are valid sources about things, even though their names, testimonies, and works couldn't be included in the compiling of the Bible, because God has never stopped interacting with His creation.

You can cite the writings of Catholic teachers " 'til the cows come home" but they didn't write Scripture.

The Bile says that Jesus had brothers (and even names them). All the sophistry in the world won't change that.

 

[theefaith]

Note: Joseph or Joses

Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33

 

[Jim B]

Note: Joseph or Joses

Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him." Do you think that Mary came with someone else's children???

Matthew 27:56, "Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee."

Matthew 28:10, "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee. They will see me there.” Do you think that Jesus didn't know who His brothers were???

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd."

John 7:3, "So Jesus’ brothers advised him, “Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing.

John 20:17, "Jesus replied, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Again, do you think that Jesus didn't know who His brothers were???

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

Either the Bible -- the word of God! -- is lying or you are!!!

 

[theefaith]

Matthew 12:46, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him." Do you think that Mary came with someone else's children???

Matthew 27:56, "Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee."

Matthew 28:10, "Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee. They will see me there.” Do you think that Jesus didn't know who His brothers were???

Luke 8:19, "Now Jesus’ mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not get near him because of the crowd."

John 7:3, "So Jesus’ brothers advised him, “Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing.

John 20:17, "Jesus replied, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Again, do you think that Jesus didn't know who His brothers were???

Acts 1:14, "All these continued together in prayer with one mind, together with the women, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

Either the Bible -- the word of God! -- is lying or you are!!!

it’s impossible to call cousins brothers?

abraham and lot are called bothers in the Bible

Did all Judaea really go out to John? Was every single person baptized by John?

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

 

[theefaith]

Is Jesus the son of Joseph?

Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

 

[Jim B]

it’s impossible to call cousins brothers?

abraham and lot are called bothers in the Bible

Did all Judaea really go out to John? Was every single person baptized by John?

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Genesis 11:27, "This is the account of Terah. Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot." and Genesis 11:31, "Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot (the son of Haran), and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and with them he set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. When they came to Haran, they settled there."
Genesis 12:5, "And Abram took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they left for the land of Canaan. They entered the land of Canaan." Clearly, Lot is Abram's nephew!

Matthew 3:5, " Then people from Jerusalem, as well as all Judea and all the region around the Jordan, were going out to him". It doesn't say everyone!

What is the matter with you??? Why do you twist Scripture??? God will not be mocked!!!

 

[theefaith]

Genesis 11:27, "This is the account of Terah. Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot." and Genesis 11:31, "Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot (the son of Haran), and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and with them he set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. When they came to Haran, they settled there."
Genesis 12:5, "And Abram took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they left for the land of Canaan. They entered the land of Canaan." Clearly, Lot is Abram's nephew!

Matthew 3:5, " Then people from Jerusalem, as well as all Judea and all the region around the Jordan, were going out to him". It doesn't say everyone!

What is the matter with you??? Why do you twist Scripture??? God will not be mocked!!!

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

BROTHERS!!!!!!!!

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

all Judaea!!!!!!

 

[theefaith]

Furthermore, the evidence in the OP illustrates Apostle James of Alphaeus was the brother of Simon, Joseph, and Apostle Jude (Judas/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3), all of whom were Jesus's brothers as in kinsmen, specifically cousins. It also illustrates this James was "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," "James the Less," "James the Just," and the author of the Epistle of James as well.