The Jesuits ... What is their role? Part 1 and 2

[Brakelite]

You obviously haven't bothered to find out why the early (as in, Acts) Church changed the "Sabbath" from Saturday to Sunday. If you did, you would discover that you are wrong - there is scriptural support for the change.

If you can show me one scripture defining, describing, or confirming that change, and validating the church's authority to even think about changing one of God's laws... If you can do that, show me that, I will go back to honouring Sunday this coming weekend.
And pay you $1000 in the process.

 

[Brakelite]

If you can show me one scripture defining, describing, or confirming that change, and validating the church's authority to even think about changing one of God's laws... If you can do that, show me that, I will go back to honouring Sunday this coming weekend.
And pay you $1000 in the process.

In the absence of such validation on your part, I will show you Catholic inspired articles that tell the reader that what you are attempting to do is impossible. They will tell you that the early church did no such thing. That it was the work of a later innovation... But maybe you can do what no-one has done before you. It would be mean not to give you the opportunity.

 

[Marymog]

@BreadOfLife your efforts at refuting my points are duly noted. But they are a fail. Why are they a fail? Because despite all your bombastic effusive vitriol and self important pretensions to scholarship, it didn't pass notice that you clearly deliberately avoided actually discussing the issue. That is... Tradition is more important and authorititive in Catholicism than is scripture. That's the point. And Sunday sacredness is the proof of that and your own church admits to it. Even boasts of it. And in the past has used it as a weapon against Protestants in debate. But not this time. You can't use it because it won't work. So your only avenue of escape is to avoid it altogether.

Fascinating..... @BreadOfLife uses scripture to totally destroy your beliefs and you use your....opinion?.....to defend yourself????


Simply.....FASCINATING!!!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

This is the doctrine of Alexander Hislop, who continues to poison the minds of certain fundamentalist circles to this day. This FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST CHRISTIAN site explains why Hislop's books are unreliable.

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Jesus defines discipleship as one’s willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 – Jesus said, “if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 – Jesus said, “whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.

John 7:39 – Jesus was first glorified on the cross, not just the resurrection. This text refers to John 19:34, when Jesus was pierced on the cross by the soldier’s lance.

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified. But Reggie goes further, and declares the cross a blasphemy.

Reggie and brokelight are recuperating in my ICU (Ignore Care Unit) and hopefully the Holy Spirit will heal their bigotry and prejudice. Anti-Catholicism is a tradition of men and just as bad as racism.

Why thank you dear Illuminator.
I am not into fundamentalist mobs at all.

Christ Jesus was crucified and risen and I understand the focus of the sacrifice.

You have it all wrong, I do not declare the Cross of Jesus as blasphemy at all, fact is that the Bible points out what the cross is in fact, that's before Jesus mind you, understand ?

Lets look as to the 2 hanging on the cross with Jesus, what is the power of the Cross to them, Nothing ! what's the power of a cross to anyone who was hung up on such a thing, Nothing ! their is not power in a cross of it's self.

It's only Jesus on the Cross that makes the Cross the subject as to anything, so the actual Cross is not worthy of anything at all, it's Jesus sacrificed on the bloody thing. the cross it's self has no glory in it's self at all. but as to carrying your Cross ? it's not about the cross but all about Jesus being subjected to such and all.

One has to be carful not to idolise the cross, now the Cross of Jesus is only power because it is Sinners who hung Jesus Christ up on the curse, that is what the cross was seen as before Jesus was risen.
But now the hanging up of Jesus Christ on the Cross is a curse to all who are Sinners because they are a curse in fact.

Matt 10:38 I totally agree, ones Cross is Jesus Cross. You do not have your own cross ? do you. if you are truly born again you would understand that the Cross you bear is his. that's what makes one a Christian because you abide in him as the Head and you are one in the Body. that's why you deny yourself and follow him and take this up everyday.
Luke 14:27 I totally agree, 'his own cross' here means you are one with Jesus Christ body.

As to your point on John 7:39 come off it ! you totally lie.

I am a Catholic In fact, it's the RCC that does not cut the mustard for me, because I know of it's works, I am not just blindly following such as that Mob of degenerates.
Pope Frances clearly does not represent Christ Jesus in fact.
I do not support the C of E or any Protestant Church or any other so called church claiming to be Christian, because by there works I know they clearly are not worthy of Christ Jesus. and that's why I have come out from them, Anyone who gets in bed with Islam or the So called Jews is not born again of the Holy Spirit.
Fact is that one must be truly born again to understand, that such people are a curse in fact because they are all about a mans works.

 

[Brakelite]

Fascinating..... @BreadOfLife uses scripture to totally destroy your beliefs

He, and others, have tried to use scripture to destroy scripture. As if Exodus 20 somehow disappears off those tables of stone because the church says, the Resurrection supercedes God's laws.
Yep, Jesus rose according to scripture, and BoL quoted those scriptures. So? They reveal Jesus rose, yes, that isn't the issue. And He rose before the women arrived at the tomb early in the morning in the first day of the week. So? That isn't the issue. What BoL hasn't done, and what no-one else has done, had shown me a scripture where the early church upheld that first day, calling it sacred, and teaching it's observance as a doctrine. He hasn't done that. No-one else has done that. You haven't done that. No-one can do that because those scriptures don't exist.
What you and others are too cowardly to admit is that Sunday sacredness comes from nowhere else but tradition. A tradition of the Catholic Church and bequeathed to Protestantism like a bad debt. And what you are even more cowardly to admit is that your church's writings agree with me.
Even a catechism for young Catholics learning the faith. Even articles written in Catholic publications boasting of the immense power of Catholic authority in changing a commandment to such an extent that almost the whole of Protestantism has followed suit. That is the issue.
In other words... Catholic tradition has usurped even the very commandments of God.

I'm vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[RogerDC]

Fascinating..... @BreadOfLife uses scripture to totally destroy your beliefs and you use your....opinion?.....to defend yourself????


Simply.....FASCINATING!!!

Opinion trumps irrefutable scripture every time - didn't you know that? How else could 30,000 different denominations exist?

 

[Brakelite]

Opinion trumps irrefutable scripture every time - didn't you know that? How else could 30,000 different denominations exist?

LOL. A classic example of projecting. The discussion here is about the Catholic Church's invention of Sunday sacredness. And her own claims to have the authority to do so. That is, to overturn a commandment of God.
Now what on Earth does my opinion have anything to do with a fact of religious history that your own church confirms? Stop lying to yourself and pretending you have the moral high ground here. I challenged you a few days ago to prove... From scripture... Sunday sacredness. I'm still waiting.

 

[Brakelite]

In other words @Marymog , @RogerDC , it's not about my opinion. It's about Catholic opinion that has overturned a specific commandment. It is Catholic opinion that has trumped irrefutable scripture. The Catholic Church doesn't have scripture to support it's case for Sunday sacredness. And she admits this in the quotes I offered earlier that you Catholics turn a blind eye to. How blind do you want to be? It is your choice. Own the situation and then debate if you like... But don't pretend such a situation is make believe...a myth... Or fairy tale. Like I mentioned to BoL, in the debate between Eck and Luther, Eck won that debate on the exact same grounds I am describing above. Luther, by observing Sunday was keeping a tradition of the Catholic Church and therefore was a hypocrite in claiming scripture alone being the basis for faith and doctrine. Why? Because if anyone is claiming scripture alone for faith and practice, they ought to be observing the 7th day Sabbath.

 

[Illuminator]

Why thank you dear Illuminator.
I am not into fundamentalist mobs at all.

Christ Jesus was crucified and risen and I understand the focus of the sacrifice.

You have it all wrong, I do not declare the Cross of Jesus as blasphemy at all, fact is that the Bible points out what the cross is in fact, that's before Jesus mind you, understand ?

Lets look as to the 2 hanging on the cross with Jesus, what is the power of the Cross to them, Nothing ! what's the power of a cross to anyone who was hung up on such a thing, Nothing ! their is not power in a cross of it's self.

It's only Jesus on the Cross that makes the Cross the subject as to anything, so the actual Cross is not worthy of anything at all, it's Jesus sacrificed on the bloody thing. the cross it's self has no glory in it's self at all. but as to carrying your Cross ? it's not about the cross but all about Jesus being subjected to such and all.

One has to be carful not to idolise the cross, now the Cross of Jesus is only power because it is Sinners who hung Jesus Christ up on the curse, that is what the cross was seen as before Jesus was risen.
But now the hanging up of Jesus Christ on the Cross is a curse to all who are Sinners because they are a curse in fact.

Matt 10:38 I totally agree, ones Cross is Jesus Cross. You do not have your own cross ? do you. if you are truly born again you would understand that the Cross you bear is his. that's what makes one a Christian because you abide in him as the Head and you are one in the Body. that's why you deny yourself and follow him and take this up everyday.
Luke 14:27 I totally agree, 'his own cross' here means you are one with Jesus Christ body.

As to your point on John 7:39 come off it ! you totally lie.

I am a Catholic In fact, it's the RCC that does not cut the mustard for me, because I know of it's works, I am not just blindly following such as that Mob of degenerates.
Pope Frances clearly does not represent Christ Jesus in fact.
I do not support the C of E or any Protestant Church or any other so called church claiming to be Christian, because by there works I know they clearly are not worthy of Christ Jesus. and that's why I have come out from them, Anyone who gets in bed with Islam or the So called Jews is not born again of the Holy Spirit.
Fact is that one must be truly born again to understand, that such people are a curse in fact because they are all about a mans works.

Reggie's anti-Catholic hate speech is as evil as racism but with a different face. He opposes all churches except his privatized version, a "pope" in a church of one. His post has been reported but nothing will happen.

Anti-Catholicism is a tradition of men.

 

[quietthinker]

Reggie's anti-Catholic hate speech is as evil as racism but with a different face. He opposes all churches except his privatized version, a "pope" in a church of one. His post has been reported but nothing will happen.

Anti-Catholicism is a tradition of men.

Reporting, publicly ignoring!!.....what next?.....yeah we know; if the power were available......like mother, like daughter!

 

[Marymog]

What BoL hasn't done, and what no-one else has done, had shown me a scripture where the early church upheld that first day, calling it sacred, and teaching it's observance as a doctrine. He hasn't done that. No-one else has done that. You haven't done that. No-one can do that because those scriptures don't exist.

Completely and utterly and provably not true. The Scripture has been shown to you.

Keeping it real....Mary

 

[Marymog]

The discussion here is about the Catholic Church's invention of Sunday sacredness.

Thank you for admitting that the Catholic Church was alive and active in the 1st century and that it was The men of that Church 'invented' Sunday sacredness: Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17 and Revelation 1:10.

Most of your Protestant friends say the Catholic Church was invented by Constantine. You are brave for breaking away from them. @BreadOfLife @Illuminator @Philip James @RogerDC will hopefully join me in welcoming you to finally coming to the truth.

The SDA church was invented in the 1800's after several false predictions about the coming of Christ. They changed their theory several times about that. Do you support them or is there another cult you support that denies what has been taught/practiced for 2,000 years?

Curious Mary

BTW...Everyday is sacred and everyday is the Lords Day in The Church. That is why the sacred mass is celebrated everyday all around the world.

 

[Marymog]

In other words @Marymog , @RogerDC , it's not about my opinion. It's about Catholic opinion that has overturned a specific commandment. It is Catholic opinion that has trumped irrefutable scripture. The Catholic Church doesn't have scripture to support it's case for Sunday sacredness. And she admits this in the quotes I offered earlier that you Catholics turn a blind eye to. How blind do you want to be? It is your choice. Own the situation and then debate if you like... But don't pretend such a situation is make believe...a myth... Or fairy tale. Like I mentioned to BoL, in the debate between Eck and Luther, Eck won that debate on the exact same grounds I am describing above. Luther, by observing Sunday was keeping a tradition of the Catholic Church and therefore was a hypocrite in claiming scripture alone being the basis for faith and doctrine. Why? Because if anyone is claiming scripture alone for faith and practice, they ought to be observing the 7th day Sabbath.

Your twisting of quotes from The Church and they mean nothing to this discussion.

You are supporting a theory that began with earnest in the 1800's by 'enlightened' people who were not even enlightened enough to figure out when the 2nd coming was to take place and broke off into different cults because of their disagreement. "How blind do you want to be?"

Do you have ANY evidence that your theory was supported by ANYONE in the 1st or 2nd century?

Curious Mary

 

[Brakelite]

You wrote a great deal and said nothing. You quoted me but didn't answer the points I made.
You quoted scripture yet not one of them actually says anything whatsoever about the discussion around Sunday sacredness. Setting money aside for a collection makes a day sacred? Seriously? And the Lord's day in Revelation 1? Jesus told you which day He was the Lord of. It wasn't Sunday.
Twisting quotes from the church? Give me an example and explain then what it really means as opposed to what I think it means.

 

[Brakelite]

For 160 years Adventists have been teaching and warning that the time will come when opportunity and societal conditions allow, Christians in America will influence government to reintroduce blue laws/Sunday laws, legislating the cessation of work on Sundays, and that this will then escalate to the legislating against cessation if work or resting on the true Sabbath. All that time we have been told, impossible. Won't happen. No-one wants it. The Supreme Court wouldn't permit it. Well, a so called conservative supreme court has just legislated against religious freedom to discriminate in hiring transvestites etc. And there have been times in the past when different groups have agitated for the return of Sunday laws, but were beaten back at Senate level through the free speech offered to opponents. In today's atmosphere however when free speech is more often termed hate speech, what chance of anyone being able to oppose Sunday laws in the future, particularly if such laws are promoted as a benefit for minorities... You opposed Sunday laws? You must oppose lgbtq...BLM... Or whatever acronym will be put forward as an oppressed victimised minority against which no-one dare criticise. And then there's this....
Bring Back the Blue Laws - Crisis Magazine

 

[RogerDC]

You demand answers to arbitrary questions as if I'm obligated to answer them. All this does is highlight the arrogant position you take....as if that is not proud.....it reflects the same position of the RCC.

My position is “arrogant”? Use must be confusing me with someone else - all I did was ask you a very reasonable question ... which you ignored. So let’s try again: Eph 1:22-23 says the Church is the “fullness” of Christ - where does the Bible say the Bible is the “fullness” of Christ?

If the Church is the “fullness” of Christ, and the Bible isn’t, doesn’t that mean the Church should be your guide, and not the Bible … much less, your personal interpretation of the Bible?

 

[RogerDC]

If you can show me one scripture defining, describing, or confirming that change, and validating the church's authority to even think about changing one of God's laws... If you can do that, show me that, I will go back to honouring Sunday this coming weekend.
And pay you $1000 in the process.

Firstly, the Bible says sabbaths are a “shadow” of things to come (Col 2:17, Heb 10:1), which means it is not meant to be permanent. When the Messiah came, the “shadow” was replaced by the real thing, thus Saturday was replaced with Sunday. By adhering to Saturday, you are chasing a “shadow” that was replaced 2000 years ago.

Secondly, Jesus gave the Church the authority to make such a change (Matt 16:19), because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15).

Thirdly, the problem is your approach to truth - Sola Scriptura - is fundamentally wrong. Not everything pertaining to the Christ is in the Bible. The Bible is not an all-inclusive, DIY manual for doing Christianity … even if it were, you would still need an infallible authority to interpret its words.
And not everything is obvious from reading the Bible. You can find references to the change to Sunday in the NT, but to discover exactly what happened in the early Church to need to study the history and traditions of the Catholic Church.

You only have your fallible interpretation of the scriptures to guide you, whereas I have the Catholic Church to guide me, which is the “fullness” of Christ and therefore infallible.

 

[RogerDC]

I am a Catholic In fact, it's the RCC that does not cut the mustard for me, because I know of it's works, I am not just blindly following such as that Mob of degenerates.
Pope Frances clearly does not represent Christ Jesus in fact.
I do not support the C of E or any Protestant Church or any other so called church claiming to be Christian, because by there works I know they clearly are not worthy of Christ Jesus. and that's why I have come out from them, Anyone who gets in bed with Islam or the So called Jews is not born again of the Holy Spirit.

So, your criteria for identifying the true Church is that its members must be perfect and sinless. How is your search going - have you found the true Church yet?

The fact that the Catholic Church contains sinners doesn’t prove that she is a false Church.

 

[RogerDC]

He, and others, have tried to use scripture to destroy scripture. As if Exodus 20 somehow disappears off those tables of stone because the church says, the Resurrection supercedes God's laws.

The OT Sabbath honoured the first creation, but Christ is the “new creation” (2Cor 5:17), hence the new “Sabbath” is Sunday, the day of his resurrection.

What you and others are too cowardly to admit is that Sunday sacredness comes from nowhere else but tradition.

Not so. I have no problem at all accepting Sunday as a tradition of the Church. I would accept it even if there was no reference to it in the NT, simply because it is what Christ’s Church teaches.

Catholic tradition has usurped even the very commandment of God.

Circumcision is a commandment of God; so is not eating pork; so is stoning adulterers to death. According to your logic, if you don’t keep these commandments, you have “usurped even the very commandment of God”.

 

[RogerDC]

For 160 years Adventists have been teaching and warning that the time will come when opportunity and societal conditions allow, Christians in America will influence government to reintroduce blue laws/Sunday laws, legislating the cessation of work on Sundays, and that this will then escalate to the legislating against cessation if work or resting on the true Sabbath. All that time we have been told, impossible. Won't happen. No-one wants it. The Supreme Court wouldn't permit it. Well, a so called conservative supreme court has just legislated against religious freedom to discriminate in hiring transvestites etc. And there have been times in the past when different groups have agitated for the return of Sunday laws, but were beaten back at Senate level through the free speech offered to opponents. In today's atmosphere however when free speech is more often termed hate speech, what chance of anyone being able to oppose Sunday laws in the future, particularly if such laws are promoted as a benefit for minorities... You opposed Sunday laws? You must oppose lgbtq...BLM... Or whatever acronym will be put forward as an oppressed victimised minority against which no-one dare criticise. And then there's this....
Bring Back the Blue Laws - Crisis Magazine

Sounds like yet another false SDA prophesy. This is what I think will happen: Your little sect will eventually fade away and disappear beneath the waves of history, proving that the SDA church was phony and not of God.