The Jesuits ... What is their role? Part 1 and 2

[Philip James]

And don't think that because scripture says she brought forth a child we recognise as the Son, Jesus, that means ' oh, it must be Mary'. Not necessarily.

?? Did someone else give birth to Jesus? How can it not be Mary?

 

[Philip James]

I would be very interested in knowing the specific identity of the woman in Revelation 18?

 

[quietthinker]

I think you have a sex problem because you see whores everywhere.
The information of what Catholics believe is available to anyone who wants to know. You don't want to know. You can bait BofL, but you won't bait me. The fact that you deny the Trinity renders you incompetent to prove or disprove anything from Scripture.

The Assumption can easily be reconciled with Scripture because it is not contrary to it in any way. The premise that all Christian doctrines must appear in Scripture in order to be accepted cannot itself be found anywhere in Scripture. Catholics agree that no Christian teaching can contradict anything in the Bible. The Assumption of Mary is a belief of this sort.

Mary’s Assumption: Brief Explanation, with a New (?) Biblical Parallel [3-1-07]

Mary’s Assumption vs. Material Sufficiency of Scripture? [4-22-07]

11 Bible Passages & Mary’s Assumption [2009]

Defending Mary (Revelation 12 & Her Assumption) [5-28-12]

Is Mary’s Assumption Able to be Inferred from Scripture Alone? [8-14-15]

Bible on Mary’s Assumption [2015]

Mary’s Death Before Her Assumption: Required Belief? [2-27-17]
*
“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #7: Mary’s Assumption [3-1-17]
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Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #6: Assumption, Queen Redux [10-19-17]
*
Biblical Arguments in Support of Mary’s Assumption [National Catholic Register, 8-15-18]

Understanding Catholic Mariology takes study, prayer, and humble submission before God. If you can't be bothered finding out what Catholics REALLY believe about Mary, then I can't be bothered enabling you to throw poop on Jesus' mother, which is what you do.

It has not passed my attention that you have not answered brakelite's question, 'show from scripture that that woman is Mary.'
What I have noticed is the attempt to snow the question.

 

[quietthinker]

?? Did someone else give birth to Jesus? How can it not be Mary?

The people of faith (God's people/ God's Church) are represented by the chaste woman in Rev.12.

 

[Philip James]

The people of faith (God's people/ God's Church) are represented by the chaste woman in Rev.12.

I agree, which is why we see Mary as an icon of the Church.

Note she is not just the mother of Jesus but also 'the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.'

so then she is both the icon of, and the mother of, the Church.


Peace be with you!

Mother Mary, pray for us!

 

[quietthinker]

I agree, which is why we see Mary as an icon of the Church.

Note she is not just the mother of Jesus but also 'the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.'

so then she is both the icon of, and the mother of, the Church.


Peace be with you!

Mother Mary, pray for us!

There is a difference between the symbol (the woman of Rev.12) being the collective of God's people and the individual Mary. The intent of the prophecy is not to highlight Mary as an individual but rather to make it clear that Jesus came from the progeny of faith.
The same principle applies to the unchaste woman of Rev.18

 

[BreadOfLife]

It has not passed my attention that you have not answered brakelite's question, 'show from scripture that that woman is Mary.'
What I have noticed is the attempt to snow the question.

WRONG.

I gave a comprehensive answer in post #440.
I suggest you go back and read it . . .

 

[Philip James]

There is a difference between the symbol (the woman of Rev.12) being the collective of God's people and the individual Mary

Do you not see? Mary is the symbol of 'the collective of God's people'. Your refusal to acknowledge that distorts your understanding..

 

[quietthinker]

Do you not see? Mary is the symbol of 'the collective of God's people'. Your refusal to acknowledge that distorts your understanding..

I would say you are superimposing Mary upon the text.....why? because Mary is not the subject matter of the prophecy.

 

[Illuminator]

(Isaiah 1:8 HCSB)
The majority of translations render the beginning of this verse as “daughter of Zion,” but I believe the HCSB and the NRSV have the translation right, expressing a thought that could be missed otherwise. Many scholars consider “Daughter Zion” a legitimate translation of the Hebrew, and I believe this wording is a more logical and meaningful one .

Zion was the name of a hill that came to be used as a designation for Jerusalem and eventually for all of the inhabitants of Judah. In the New Testament, “Zion” is used to designate the new, heavenly Jerusalem to which Christians “have come” (Hebrews 12:22).

Since Zion was already a metaphor for God’s people, translating Isaiah 1:8 as “daughter of Zion” is a way of saying “the daughter of God’s people” — a concept not expanded on anywhere in the Bible. Translating as the HCSB and NRSV do literally means “God’s people — His daughter,” a thought that is also found in Zechariah 2:10, Jeremiah 46:19, and Jeremiah 48:18.

In his commentary on Isaiah, Protestant linguist W. E. Vine (available on Amazon) expresses his preference for the translation “Zion the Daughter” in Isaiah 1:8, saying, “It is expressive of the tenderness with which the Lord had regarded the relation with which He had established between Jerusalem (as representing His people) and Himself.”

While I have not read anything about Vine having daughters, I do know he had five children, so the odds are quite good that he did have a daughter, and that this was why the verse so captured his attention.

Only a dad that has had daughters will really get this. I have a son and two daughters. I love my son every bit as much as I love my daughters, but there is something different (not more) in a dad’s heart for his girls. Mothers love the daughters just as much as fathers do, but there is still a difference in the way a dad feels about and relates to his daughters. There is a kind of tender protectiveness in the heart of a man for his daughters that only experience can describe.

When my youngest daughter Kristin was married, it was to a very good man, but I could not stand to look at them dancing at the reception. Another man was taking my girl. I knew it was right but it was hard to let go. The car ride home was a very emotional one. My older daughter Amy’s marriage was not much different.

To me, it is utterly profound to think of God as having that kind of tender feeling for us. In Isaiah 1, God says His daughter has turned her back on Him — something that would break my heart as a father. It is a comfort to know I am loved that way, and sobering to think of how my turning away from Him would grieve Him.
"Daughter Zion" -- God's Expression of Tender Love | Apologetics Index

 

[Illuminator]

The mystery of Israel and the Church is summed up in a marvelous way in Mary, who is at once the exemplary daughter of Zion, the culmination of the faith of Israel, the most perfect disciple of Christ, and the Mother of the Church and of every human being, insofar as all are called to be members of the Church. She is the most perfect link between the Old and the New Covenants. Mary is at one and the same time the perfect summary, exemplar, and recapitulation of the faith of Israel, and the Mother of the new Israel, the Church. The fact that Mary is the Mother of the Church should be familiar to all Catholics. What is less familiar is Mary’s role as the exemplary and perfect “daughter of Zion”. Let us look first at Mary from the perspective of Israel and then as the Mother of the Church...
Mary, Daughter of Zion and Mother of the Church - Pentecost 2011

 

[RogerDC]

show from scripture that that woman is Mary.

Are you serious? Rev 12:5 says the woman "bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.". This male child is obviously Jesus.

Who gave birth to Jesus? Tough question, I know, but just do your best.

 

[RogerDC]

And don't think that because scripture says she brought forth a child we recognise as the Son, Jesus, that means ' oh, it must be Mary'. Not necessarily. Revelation 12 is prophetic. It is filled with symbolism

Wow, talk about denying the words of scripture. Not a great recipe for arriving at the truth.

Face it, you are wrong and the Catholic Church is right.

 

[RogerDC]

I would be very interested in knowing the specific identity of the woman in Revelation 18?

The "women" has three identities, but all the descriptors need not apply to each identity. For example, the whole description doesn't apply to Mary, yet Mary is obviously identified in the mix.

 

[RogerDC]

The people of faith (God's people/ God's Church) are represented by the chaste woman in Rev.12.

So is Israel and so is Mary.

 

[RogerDC]

There is a difference between the symbol (the woman of Rev.12) being the collective of God's people and the individual Mary. The intent of the prophecy is not to highlight Mary as an individual but rather to make it clear that Jesus came from the progeny of faith.
The same principle applies to the unchaste woman of Rev.18

The woman is described as giving birth to Jesus. Who gave birth to Jesus? You only get one guess.

 

[RogerDC]

I would say you are superimposing Mary upon the text.....why? because Mary is not the subject matter of the prophecy.

I would say you are afraid that woman can be Mary and that therefore the Catholic Church is right.
There is no "superimposing" - rather, there is super-denial on your part. Why are you afraid of the truth?

 

[RogerDC]

Do you not see? Mary is the symbol of 'the collective of God's people'. Your refusal to acknowledge that distorts your understanding..

No, he doesn't see - he's afraid to open his eyes and mind to the truth.

 

[mjrhealth]

I think you have a sex problem because you see whores everywhere.

@Brakelite2 He is right, the problem is he doesnt see is that all mens religions including his, are daughters of the whore,

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

ye they all came from one mother and they keep having family spats.

 

[mjrhealth]

Which Catholic doctrines are “pulled out of thin air”?

All of them