The Jesuits ... What is their role? Part 1 and 2

[RogerDC]

Mmmmm. And this is the problem isn't it. The church claiming it speaks as God. I have no problem with a church claiming it is speaking on behalf of God... All we need to is compare those statements with scripture and if they contradict scripture, then they clearly are not from God at all. But claiming that doctrines pulled out of thin air are the word of God? Sorry, but that's Antichrist

Which Catholic doctrines are “pulled out of thin air”?

KJV 2 Thessalonians 2 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), therefore Catholic doctrines are Christ’s doctrines.

Is the SDA church the “fullness” of Christ?

 

[RogerDC]

@BreadOfLife your efforts at refuting my points are duly noted. But they are a fail. Why are they a fail? Because despite all your bombastic effusive vitriol and self important pretensions to scholarship, it didn't pass notice that you clearly deliberately avoided actually discussing the issue. That is... Tradition is more important and authorititive in Catholicism than is scripture. That's the point. And Sunday sacredness is the proof of that and your own church admits to it. Even boasts of it. And in the past has used it as a weapon against Protestants in debate. But not this time. You can't use it because it won't work. So your only avenue of escape is to avoid it altogether.

Your church is about 2000 years out-of-date. Saturday worship is a Jewish tradition - the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, changed it to Sunday (the day of Jesus’ resurrection), and the power to change the day was granted by Christ himself: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loosed on earth will be loosed in Heaven” (Matt 16). And since the Church is the “fullness” of Christ, the change from Saturday to Sunday was ordained by Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

Please provide an example of what you mean from the writings of Thomas Aquinas.

I suggest you look up on Google Thomas Aquinas/ heretics. Easy to find. What they reveal is his full approval of the death sentence for Catholics who teach/practice heresy. However, one I think could justifiable ask heresy against what? And also what constitutes a Catholic? The Albigenses and Cathars for example were persecuted for heresy, but I seriously doubt any of them would claim to be Catholic.

Incidentally, did you know that the opinions of individual Catholics and Catholic doctrine are not necessarily the same thing?

Yes. However, when someone like Aquinas, a Doctor of the church, is lauded by some as eminent as a pope and his writings spoken of as the basis upon which doctrine is based and there can be no argument or debate against them, then you have a man's writing placed on par with scripture.

So when the blood-thirsty, antichrist religion of Islam invaded Christian Europe, what do you think the Pope should have done?

It wouldn't be those particular crusades that bother me. I would more challenge those against the Albigenses and the Waldenses... So called heretics according to the church... And worthy of death by many people prior to Thomas Aquinas... But just because both peoples lived in Catholic dominated Europe does not mean they were Catholic. So we have people persecuted for being heretics but who weren't Catholic... Yet Catholic apologists even today say only Catholics were killed for heresy?

 

[Illuminator]

Seventh-day Adventism cannot change its views on the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon without admitting that it was wrong on Sunday worship. It cannot admit that Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast without changing its views on the Jewish Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventism cannot cease to be anti-Catholic without ceasing to be Seventh-day Adventism.
Seventh-day Adventism

ANALYSIS OF THE HISTORICAL ARGUMENTS ASSERTED BY SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST FOUNDRESS AND SDA’S FOREMEOST HISTORIAN
By Dr. Rey V. Entila, Ph.D

The read is long and boring. Bottom line: the SDA church refuses to listen to its own scholars begging for updates and edits on its false histories. Assassinating the character of Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi was how the SDA leaders chose to settle the controversy.

Since the 1911 edition (The Great Controversy) over a 100 years ago, it has not been updated in any form. Thus, the book that historically had been the pace-setter for Adventist theology has become dormant, effectively freezing Adventist theology in its tracks. What this situation has fostered is a perpetuation, and in some instances codification, of many 19th and early 20th century EGW understandings of our world and our place in it which some believe should not be “disturbed.” Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the book’s subject and viewpoints beg for engagement, both inside and outside the church. There are several issues arising from the GC that have defied, and continue to defy, settlement within the church, periodically erupting into open conflicts.​

“The Great Controversy” Shackles Adventist Theology
An SDA publication

 

[Illuminator]

Pope Asks Forgiveness for Persecution of Evangelical Church

"...The Pope went on to express his gratefulness at the good relations that now exist between the Catholic Church and the Waldensians, which he said “are more founded upon mutual respect and brotherly love.”​

Among the areas of collaboration between Catholics and Waldensians, he highlighted the care of those who suffer, particularly the poor, the sick and migrants..."

What does this mean to a Seventh Day Adventist???
Nothing. Digging up dirt 1000 years old is more important.

 

[Brakelite]

Which Catholic doctrines are “pulled out of thin air”?

The Assumption of Mary?

The Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), therefore Catholic doctrines are Christ’s doctrines.

Is the SDA church the “fullness” of Christ?

Have a look at the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation. How many of those "churches" were the fulness of Christ? Yet they were definitely Christian churches.

Saturday worship is a Jewish tradition -

Saturday worship? What do you mean by that... Precisely?

 

[Brakelite]

Pope Asks Forgiveness for Persecution of Evangelical Church

"...The Pope went on to express his gratefulness at the good relations that now exist between the Catholic Church and the Waldensians, which he said “are more founded upon mutual respect and brotherly love.”​

Among the areas of collaboration between Catholics and Waldensians, he highlighted the care of those who suffer, particularly the poor, the sick and migrants..."

What does this mean to a Seventh Day Adventist???
Nothing. Digging up dirt 1000 years old is more important.

I notice you don't address me directly. What's up with that?

 

[Illuminator]

I notice you don't address me directly. What's up with that?

Because it's a waste of time and screen space. Reacting to your psychotic hatred for my heart felt beliefs might cause me to sin, making me no better than you.

 

[Illuminator]

Have a look at the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation. How many of those "churches" were the fulness of Christ? Yet they were definitely Christian churches.

The fallacy of this argument is exposed in this video. It's 1 1/2 hours long, but you can fast forward moving the red dot to around 22 minutes. Twisting Revelation is a common tactic by biblical illiterates with a single minded agenda.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why do you keep supporting my entire theological worldview by explaining the very scriptures that certify it, while pretending to oppose it with your own bombast?
I agree with you. It says ever lasting punishment. And that punishment is death, as can be verified with hundreds of scriptures from Genesis to Revelation... And that death is everlasting... There is no Resurrection.

And no where in either of the above examples is there any mention of torment. They both say punishment. Yay for scripture that can be relieved upon for truth. God does not lie. Punishment... Eternal. No end. Absolutely. One final death due to the ultimate destruction and annihilation of the wicked by the fire which burns them up leaving neither root nor branch, but just ashes under your feet. A punishment from which there is no escape. No hope. No future life or awareness of anything. Forever. Nothing in scripture suggests anything BoL about everlasting punishing.

I have no need to alter scripture when all the scriptures you present support my beliefs. All of them.

Maybe it’s just wishful thinking – on your oart - but it’s definitely SDA denial.

Whatever the case - your pathetic devotion to a false teacher (Ellen White) instead of heeding the Word of God is at the root of your confusion.

Rev. 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.

Rev. 14:11
And the smoke of THEIR TORMENT GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER, and they have no rest day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

As I have warned you FOUR TIMES now – the very SAME Holy Spirit who authored every other verse about a place of Eternal suffering known as Hell - authored these verses . . .

 

[quietthinker]

Seventh-day Adventism cannot change its views on the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon without admitting that it was wrong on Sunday worship. It cannot admit that Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast without changing its views on the Jewish Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventism cannot cease to be anti-Catholic without ceasing to be Seventh-day Adventism.
Seventh-day Adventism

ANALYSIS OF THE HISTORICAL ARGUMENTS ASSERTED BY SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST FOUNDRESS AND SDA’S FOREMEOST HISTORIAN
By Dr. Rey V. Entila, Ph.D

The read is long and boring. Bottom line: the SDA church refuses to listen to its own scholars begging for updates and edits on its false histories. Assassinating the character of Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi was how the SDA leaders chose to settle the controversy.

Since the 1911 edition (The Great Controversy) over a 100 years ago, it has not been updated in any form. Thus, the book that historically had been the pace-setter for Adventist theology has become dormant, effectively freezing Adventist theology in its tracks. What this situation has fostered is a perpetuation, and in some instances codification, of many 19th and early 20th century EGW understandings of our world and our place in it which some believe should not be “disturbed.” Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the book’s subject and viewpoints beg for engagement, both inside and outside the church. There are several issues arising from the GC that have defied, and continue to defy, settlement within the church, periodically erupting into open conflicts.​

“The Great Controversy” Shackles Adventist Theology
An SDA publication

I see Illuminator that you are fond of quoting the writings of others thus assuming the opinions of others......but have you read the book (The Great Controversy) yourself??? or is it the case like many who think they are informed by quoting verses from the Bible but are ignorant of it??

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Assumption of Mary?

In the Book of Revelation, Mary is the ONLY person who is described as having a body - from HEAD to TOE (Rev. 12:1).
This is evidence oif her bodily Assumption.

Have a look at the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation. How many of those "churches" were the fulness of Christ? Yet they were definitely Christian churches.

The term "7 churches" in Revelation refers to the ONE Church in SEVEN different locations.
Today, we would refer to them as "parishes".

- The ONE Church that Christ built is the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23).
- It is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- Jesus compares His very SELF to it (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus guaranteed His Apostles that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:218).
- He ALSO guaranteed them the the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL Truth (John 16:121-15).

YOUR lack of faith in the Word of God doesn't "nullify" these facts.

 

[Illuminator]

If Rev. 2:4-5 disproves the Church (Apostolic Tradition/Succession) then the same logic can be applied to the Ephesians. They had Scripture (the Book of Ephesians and others) written 40 years prior, yet their love grew cold. Does this prove we can't rely on Scripture? NO. If the rebuke of the Ephesians in Rev. 2 does not refute Scripture, then it does not refute Tradition either. Hebrews 4:2 offers no guarantee that those receiving Oral Tradition would remain steadfast, or they failed to receive it in the first place due to lack of faith. Rev. 2:4-5 does not disprove the Church, it disapproves falling away in sin and heresy FROM the Church. It's a non-sequitur fallacy favored by SDA, JW's, and fundamentalists.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Pope Asks Forgiveness for Persecution of Evangelical Church

"...The Pope went on to express his gratefulness at the good relations that now exist between the Catholic Church and the Waldensians, which he said “are more founded upon mutual respect and brotherly love.”​

Among the areas of collaboration between Catholics and Waldensians, he highlighted the care of those who suffer, particularly the poor, the sick and migrants..."

What does this mean to a Seventh Day Adventist???
Nothing. Digging up dirt 1000 years old is more important.

This is the Work of the Devil. may look good to carnal idiots I am sure.
No true Pope would play that charade.

 

[Brakelite]

In the Book of Revelation, Mary is the ONLY person who is described as having a body - from HEAD to TOE (Rev. 12:1).
This is evidence oif her bodily Assumption.

show from scripture that that woman is Mary.

 

[Brakelite]

show from scripture that that woman is Mary.

And don't think that because scripture says she brought forth a child we recognise as the Son, Jesus, that means ' oh, it must be Mary'. Not necessarily. Revelation 12 is prophetic. It is filled with symbolism. To pick one aspect out of it and make it literal is completely inconsistent. Throughout prophecy, women were used to represent God's people. In the OT Israel, in the NT the church. If the woman this represented was an apostate church, the woman in the prophecy was a prostitute/whore, as in
KJV Jeremiah 2
The Sins of Judah
20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
KJV Jeremiah 3
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

And in the NT we have....
KJV 1 Corinthians 6
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
KJV Revelation 17
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I would be very interested in knowing the specific identity of the woman in Revelation 18?

 

[Illuminator]

This is the Work of the Devil. may look good to carnal idiots I am sure.
No true Pope would play that charade.

Asking for forgiveness is what Christians do. Carnal idiots call it a charade. Narrow minded ignorant hateful bigots call it the work of the devil. And the Waldensian leader is complicit with the devil for receiving the Pope, and all the Waldensians who applauded the Pope are also complicit with the devil, and now you are persecuting them while complaining of a sorry event that happened 1000 years ago. . Your sick view is an embarrassment to all of Protestantism.

 

[Illuminator]

And don't think that because scripture says she brought forth a child we recognise as the Son, Jesus, that means ' oh, it must be Mary'. Not necessarily. Revelation 12 is prophetic. It is filled with symbolism. To pick one aspect out of it and make it literal is completely inconsistent. Throughout prophecy, women were used to represent God's people. In the OT Israel, in the NT the church. If the woman this represented was an apostate church, the woman in the prophecy was a prostitute/whore, as in
KJV Jeremiah 2
The Sins of Judah
20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
KJV Jeremiah 3
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

And in the NT we have....
KJV 1 Corinthians 6
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
KJV Revelation 17
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I would be very interested in knowing the specific identity of the woman in Revelation 18?

I think you have a sex problem because you see whores everywhere.
The information of what Catholics believe is available to anyone who wants to know. You don't want to know. You can bait BofL, but you won't bait me. The fact that you deny the Trinity renders you incompetent to prove or disprove anything from Scripture.

The Assumption can easily be reconciled with Scripture because it is not contrary to it in any way. The premise that all Christian doctrines must appear in Scripture in order to be accepted cannot itself be found anywhere in Scripture. Catholics agree that no Christian teaching can contradict anything in the Bible. The Assumption of Mary is a belief of this sort.

Mary’s Assumption: Brief Explanation, with a New (?) Biblical Parallel [3-1-07]

Mary’s Assumption vs. Material Sufficiency of Scripture? [4-22-07]

11 Bible Passages & Mary’s Assumption [2009]

Defending Mary (Revelation 12 & Her Assumption) [5-28-12]

Is Mary’s Assumption Able to be Inferred from Scripture Alone? [8-14-15]

Bible on Mary’s Assumption [2015]

Mary’s Death Before Her Assumption: Required Belief? [2-27-17]
*
“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #7: Mary’s Assumption [3-1-17]
*
Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #6: Assumption, Queen Redux [10-19-17]
*
Biblical Arguments in Support of Mary’s Assumption [National Catholic Register, 8-15-18]

Understanding Catholic Mariology takes study, prayer, and humble submission before God. If you can't be bothered finding out what Catholics REALLY believe about Mary, then I can't be bothered enabling you to throw poop on Jesus' mother, which is what you do.

 

[BreadOfLife]

show from scripture that that woman is Mary.

When I get home from work . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

show from scripture that that woman is Mary.

The Woman in Rev. 12:1 is a polyvalent symbolism.
This simply means that she represents more than one thing.

She represents Israel:
The crown of 12 stars represents the 12 Tribes.
The child who is to rule all nations with an iron rod came out of Israel.

More directly - she represents MARY:
The crown of 12 stars represents the 12 Apostles, the fulfillment of the 12 Tribes.
Mary gave birth to the child who is to rule all nations with an iron rod.

ALSO – let’s not forget that the Woman is the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven. Since chapter and verse were not added to Scripture until the Middle Ages – the description of the Woman actually begins back in Rev. 11:19 . . .

Then God’s Temple in Heaven was opened and the ARK OF THE COVENANT was seen within His temple. There were flashes of lightening, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and heavy hail.

When we get to Rev. 12:1, we get the full picture of WHO the Ark is.

The OT is full of Types and Symbols, whereas, the NT is ALL about fulfillments.
Here is what the Bible tells us about the OT Type that was the Ark of the Covenant and the NT Fulfillment that is Mary, the Ark of the NEW Covenant:

OT – The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT – The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

OT – "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT – "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT – The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned David was “leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT – When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT – The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT – Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT – The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT – Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT – On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the Covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT – The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus (priests) present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.