The Jewish People are Jehovah’s Witnesses

[RR144]

Do you know that...
The Jewish People are Jehovah’s Witnesses?
​

The name, Jehovah’s Witnesses or Witnesses of Jehovah, however else used, is a scriptural concept. But to whom did the Lord give this title? Has the Lord instructed Christians to be witnesses for Jehovah, or witnesses for Jesus?

There is not a single New Testament scripture that calls Christians the witnessesof Jehovah. On the other hand, the New Testament commissions Christians to be the ‘witnesses of Jesus’ (Acts 1:8; Revelation 20:4) and the ‘ambassadors of Christ’ (2 Corinthians 5:20). The commission given to Christians by Jesus was that they should be his witnesses in all the world by preaching the Gospel (Matthew 24:14).

But the Jewish people witnessed for Jehovah in a different way. It was not because Israel preached God’s Word that they were called His ‘witnesses.’ Rather, it was because God revealed His glory to others by the miraculous manner in which he dealt with them.

In three instances in the Old Testament God said to Israel, ‘Ye are my witnesses.’ These three times are to be found in Isaiah 43 and 44. In these two chapters, Isaiah establishes five historic facts concerning who are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah.

The ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah... Were delivered from the land of Egypt (Isaiah 43:3) Offered animal sacrifices to the Lord (Isaiah 43:23) Transgressed the Law Covenant (Isaiah 43:24,25) Are forgiven for the Lord’s sake (Isaiah 43:25) Are being regathered from all over the world to the Holy Land (Isaiah 43:5,6) These five stated identifications are true only of one people, the Jews! Therefore, it is clear that the Jewish people, the ‘ancient people,’ ‘my chosen’, are the real ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah (Isaiah 44:7; 43:20).

But in case anyone concludes that the Jews have long since forfeited this title, the last scriptural assertion concerning the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah was a prophecy that is only now in the process of fulfillment. The Jewish people are being regathered from all over the world to the Land of Israel. Their regathering has been motivated not only by religious fervor, as some might have expected, but this does not matter. The Bible reveals that after the Jews are regathered in their Land, then the Lord will bring them through experiences that will gradually increase their faith and enkindle a true religious vitality that will reach their
‘inward parts’ and fit them for their special role in God’s Kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:1- 4).

How Are the Jewish People the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah?​

The Jewish people are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah from two standpoints. First, God has revealed His power and glory by the miraculous manner in which He has dealt with them (Isaiah 43:9- 12). God delivered them from Egypt, led them through the Red Sea, sustained them in the wilderness, led them through the River Jordan, gave them the land of Canaan, and made them a nation. During their chastening and dispersion, the phenomenal preservation of the people of Israel over the centuries as a distinct and homogeneous people among nations is itself a miracle of history. They have left blood- stained footprints of martyrdom in every nation they have trod. Neither persecution, nor famine, nor any other
force was able to cause them to be assimilated. However, after 2,000 years, contrary to every pattern of history, they are re- established in their homeland, an independent nation. Surely the Lord’s power and glory has been witnessed through this people!

The second way they are the ‘Witnesses’ of Jehovah is how their history proves the validity of God’s Word- the Bible. Every detail of their history has been prophesied and fulfilled...or is in the process of fulfillment. Their original establishment as a nation, their destruction as a nation and dispersion as a people, their regathering, the circumstances of their regathering, their future role, all were prophesied in the Bible. All this detailed fulfillment is an
extraordinary witness to the immutability of God’s Word. Therefore, these are the reasons why the Lord has said of the Jewish People, ‘YE ARE MY WITNESSES, SAITH JEHOVAH.’

Promises to Christians, and to the Jewish People​

The ‘JWs’ today, like other replacement, theology- believing Christians, do not see any special future for the Jews. However, ‘from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable’ (Romans 11:28,29 NAS). Since God promised that the Seed of Abraham would inherit the Land and bless all the families of the earth out of Jerusalem (Genesis 22:18,19; Jeremiah 32:41; Isaiah 2:2,3), what right have any Christians to annul this promise? These blessings were never forfeited. These promises are ‘forever’ (Amos 9:14,15).

If we say God has cancelled his promises to the children of Israel, what confidence can we have in His promises to us as Christians?

 

[Davy]

....
There is not a single New Testament scripture that calls Christians the witnessesof Jehovah. On the other hand, the New Testament commissions Christians to be the ‘witnesses of Jesus’ (Acts 1:8; Revelation 20:4) and the ‘ambassadors of Christ’ (2 Corinthians 5:20). The commission given to Christians by Jesus was that they should be his witnesses in all the world by preaching the Gospel (Matthew 24:14).
....

Christ's Name includes YHVH's Name within it. You CANNOT separate Jesus from being part of The GODHEAD, which something Jehovah's Witness cult attempts to do, even claiming the falseness that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

Charles Russel started the Jehovah's Witness cult, and it is a cult because he even stated that if one only used his Bible study lessons, they wouldn't need to read The Bible. Whoah! Big Red Flag! "How's that?," they might say. If one doesn't study The Bible and use it as the measure, then they might easily fall to charlatans like Charles Taze Russel and the JW cult.

 

[amadeus]

Many may name the JWs as a cult today but with the measure of truth they had, they provided a better witness for dealing with adversity in Nazi Germany on a per capita basis than any other group/organization/church claiming to be followers of God and Jesus. The following overview is from Wikipedia...

Jehovah's Witnesses suffered religious persecution in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945 after refusing to perform military service, join Nazi organizations or give allegiance to the Hitler regime. An estimated 10,000 Witnesses—half of the number of members in Germany during that period—were imprisoned, including 2000 who were sent to Nazi concentration camps. An estimated 1200 died in custody, including 250 who were executed. They were the first Christian denomination banned by the Nazi government and the most extensively and intensively persecuted.[1]

Unlike Jews and Romani, who were persecuted on the basis of their ethnicity, Jehovah's Witnesses could escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs by signing a document indicating renunciation of their faith, submission to state authority, and support of the German military.[2] Historian Sybil Milton concludes that "their courage and defiance in the face of torture and death punctures the myth of a monolithic Nazi state ruling over docile and submissive subjects."[3]

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Many may name the JWs as a cult today but with the measure of truth they had, they provided a better witness for dealing with adversity in Nazi Germany on a per capita basis than any other group/organization/church claiming to be followers of God and Jesus. The following overview is from Wikipedia...

Jehovah's Witnesses suffered religious persecution in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945 after refusing to perform military service, join Nazi organizations or give allegiance to the Hitler regime. An estimated 10,000 Witnesses—half of the number of members in Germany during that period—were imprisoned, including 2000 who were sent to Nazi concentration camps. An estimated 1200 died in custody, including 250 who were executed. They were the first Christian denomination banned by the Nazi government and the most extensively and intensively persecuted.[1]

Unlike Jews and Romani, who were persecuted on the basis of their ethnicity, Jehovah's Witnesses could escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs by signing a document indicating renunciation of their faith, submission to state authority, and support of the German military.[2] Historian Sybil Milton concludes that "their courage and defiance in the face of torture and death punctures the myth of a monolithic Nazi state ruling over docile and submissive subjects."[3]

1) It isn't a Christian denomination.

2) Wikipedia naming them this does not make them Christian.

3) Its stance against national allegiance, Hitler and military is pacifism, not Christianity. It is nothing new, they practice this worldwide.

4) Its stance being punished was persecution for the name of Christ.

5) Its religious beliefs aren't biblical Christianity.

 

[amadeus]

1) It isn't a Christian denomination.

And this is important, why? Show me in scripture why being a "Christian denomination" would be important in the eyes of God. First, of course, you would have to explain what a "Christian" is and what a "denomination" is... but I cannot see myself where that would help.

2) Wikipedia naming them this does not make them Christian.

Wikipedia naming anyone as a follower of Jesus does not make them one, does it? I simply quoted it because it was easy to copy a short summary of their stand at that time. It is not for me to render final judgment on anyone else. Those that condemned are, while those who are not, are not. Whether they agree with you or with me makes no difference so long as they at the end of their course please God.

3) Its stance against national allegiance, Hitler and military is pacifism, not Christianity. It is nothing new, they practice this worldwide.

And of course, what the German government under Hitler practiced from 1933 through 1945 against Jews and anyone who opposed them was according to most Germans OK as they were "Christians". http://gregladen.com/blog/2010/09/16/the-german-nazis-were-christia/

4) Its stance being punished was persecution for the name of Christ.

What are you saying?

[/quote]
5) Its religious beliefs aren't biblical Christianity.[/QUOTE]
You have not defined your terms. What is Christianity? Many you would say are not Christians would say that they are. Your word against theirs.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What are you saying?


You have not defined your terms. What is Christianity? Many you would say are not Christians would say that they are. Your word against theirs.

Nope, it's God's Word against theirs.

And against yours as well.

You put way too much stock in what people say, and way too little in what God says. My suggestion is you spend more time studying Scripture than you do on here blessing cults as Christian. Frankly you don't know what you are doing or what you are saying.

 

[CoreIssue]

And this is important, why? Show me in scripture why being a "Christian denomination" would be important in the eyes of God. First, of course, you would have to explain what a "Christian" is and what a "denomination" is... but I cannot see myself where that would help.


Wikipedia naming anyone as a follower of Jesus does not make them one, does it? I simply quoted it because it was easy to copy a short summary of their stand at that time. It is not for me to render final judgment on anyone else. Those that condemned are, while those who are not, are not. Whether they agree with you or with me makes no difference so long as they at the end of their course please God.


And of course, what the German government under Hitler practiced from 1933 through 1945 against Jews and anyone who opposed them was according to most Germans OK as they were "Christians". http://gregladen.com/blog/2010/09/16/the-german-nazis-were-christia/


What are you saying?

5) Its religious beliefs aren't biblical Christianity.[/QUOTE]
You have not defined your terms. What is Christianity? Many you would say are not Christians would say that they are. Your word against theirs. [/QUOTE]

Denomination secular that is not found.

But but the vision by doctrine invented by men is and rejected.

Christian means follower of Christ. Jehovah witnesses do not follow Christ. They follow a different Christ and a different God.

It's not the word of some against others. It is the word of some against the Bible.

They are not Christians.

Hitler also claimed to be a Christian. But he practice Eastern mysticism.

 

[RR144]

which something Jehovah's Witness cult attempts to do, even claiming the falseness that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

They are not the only ones who believe this. There are several sects and denominations who believe this also.

Charles Russel started the Jehovah's Witness cult, and it is a cult because he even stated that if one only used his Bible study lessons, they wouldn't need to read The Bible. Whoah! Big Red Flag! "How's that?," they might say. If one doesn't study The Bible and use it as the measure, then they might easily fall to charlatans like Charles Taze Russel and the JW cult.

Actually, Charles Taze Russell founded the Watchtower Society, 15 years AFTER he died, the Watchtower Society founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Every denomination believes they have the Truth. If that wasn't the case there would be only ONE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, the all these fractions within the Body. Do the Baptist have the Truth? The Catholics? How about the Presbyterians? Church of God, Nazarene?

Actually there is ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, but it isn't an earthly denomination, made by earthly hands, there are no walls.

BTW … I'm not a JW, in case you were wondering

 

[amadeus]

Nope, it's God's Word against theirs.

And against yours as well.

You put way too much stock in what people say, and way too little in what God says. My suggestion is you spend more time studying Scripture than you do on here blessing cults as Christian. Frankly you don't know what you are doing or what you are saying.

Actually I put little stock in what people say... especially me when I have not been and am not in the Spirit. Knowing scripture without being in the Spirit of God [Love] is nothing:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." I John 4:16

If reading the Bible alone would save a person, then perhaps I could join the ranks of those who readily say they are saved and can never lose that salvation. I am not in that group. If you had read many of my posts you would know that I read the Bible daily from one to two hours , seven days a week and study beyond that every day. I have been doing that for many years, but that would be nothing without the Holy Spirit in which I walk when I do so. A growth from milk to meat requires a continuing surrender on our part no matter how much we read and study the scriptures... Paul let us know how little his trust in the flesh was for him here:

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ," Phil 3:4-8

So it is that he who knew the scriptures so well having studied them long and hard correctly counted his knowledge as dung because he remained unenlightened for so long...

Do I know what I am talking about? When God leads me as I allow Him to do so, I am correct. When I lead myself even on scriptural things I am in error.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Davy]

Sure you can. Tell me what is the GODHEAD?

They are not the only ones who believe this. There are several sects and denominations who believe this also.

There are several sects that believe Jesus is the Archangel Michael?

Like JW, they are not Christian then, because it is impossible to believe God's Word as written while believing that The Son of God was a creation...

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, 'God with us.'
KJV

An angel is not God. Anyone who doesn't know that difference per God's Holy Writ is not part of Christ's Church, simply because angels don't have the power to forgive sin and offer eternal life, only God can do that. This is why the blind Jews wanted to kill Jesus, because Jesus claimed to be God...

John 8:57-59
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The 'I AM' is one of God's sacred names.

Actually, Charles Taze Russell founded the Watchtower Society, 15 years AFTER he died, the Watchtower Society founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Every denomination believes they have the Truth. If that wasn't the case there would be only ONE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, the all these fractions within the Body. Do the Baptist have the Truth? The Catholics? How about the Presbyterians? Church of God, Nazarene?
....

Doesn't matter that JW of today was a later offshoot. Russel began the cult, from his own... teachings and taught that's all one needs. Anyone... telling you that you don't need God's Holy Writ as a believing Christian is not a part of Christ's Church. Might as well paint a swastika on one's forehead with that kind of blind follower. Jesus and His Apostles well warned us in the last days about false prophets coming to deceive.

A group that doesn't believe Jesus is God The Son isn't a Christian denomination. That fact is simple and is The Word of God...

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

That statement about denying that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ has a lot more meaning than what most think. It actually means like I showed from Matthew 1:23 about the name "Emmanuel", which is another of Christ's titles per the Book of Isaiah, and means "God with us", meaning God come in the flesh!

Thus the full idea is about those that are liars are those who deny... that God came in the flesh, born of woman's womb, as Jesus of Nazareth. That is what it means to deny that Jesus is God with us.


John 14:9
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
KJV

Heb 1:2-3
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
KJV

Col 1:14-17
14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
KJV

Did you not know that ALL THINGS were created by Jesus Christ? even angels?

Thus God's Word reveals that Lord Jesus is The CHRIST, meaning God The Son, not an angel, and not just having begun in the flesh with Mary.

 

[amadeus]

5) Its religious beliefs aren't biblical Christianity.

Even if you were correct why push the issue unless someone was asking? If a person is wrong in the eyes of God, is he not condemned already?

Denomination secular that is not found.

I don't understand your meaning here.

But but the vision by doctrine invented by men is and rejected.

You have already rejected it so why pursue it further?

Christian means follower of Christ. Jehovah witnesses do not follow Christ. They follow a different Christ and a different God.

They would say that they do, so what is the point of pursuing it? Only God gives the increase, not the JWs and not you.

It's not the word of some against others. It is the word of some against the Bible.

Actually lots of people read and believe the Bible, in many cases from the same version and still disagree. Having knowledge of the Bible does NOT mean having the Word of God, does it? If it did we would not find so much disagreement, would we?

They are not Christians.

Hitler also claimed to be a Christian. But he practice Eastern mysticism.

I am not on the side of JWs or Hitler or you. I strive to always be on the side of God. Just saying that we are, of course, does not make it so. It must be written in our heart by the Holy Spirit.

You have condemned a large group of people mostly sight unseen and never heard by you. Even if their doctrines are all wrong which is like not true, there are likely to be individuals who are pleasing God. To presume they are not is to speak for God and who among us can and does always do that?

 

[CoreIssue]

="amadeus, post: 534706, member: 924"]Even if you were correct why push the issue unless someone was asking? If a person is wrong in the eyes of God, is he not condemned already?

Did the apostles wait for people to ask them?

I don't understand your meaning here.

Because denominationalism is the division where people split to follow human teachers.

Paul condemned it.

You have already rejected it so why pursue it further?

Because I'm stubborn in the world from experience sometimes you have to be persistent to get through.

They would say that they do, so what is the point of pursuing it? Only God gives the increase, not the JWs and not you.

So let them come to the forum and evangelize freely. Don't challenge them?

Actually lots of people read and believe the Bible, in many cases from the same version and still disagree. Having knowledge of the Bible does NOT mean having the Word of God, does it? If it did we would not find so much disagreement, would we?

I will just use your own words to illustrate.

You said Word not word.

Word is logos. Not the written word.

I am not on the side of JWs or Hitler or you. I strive to always be on the side of God. Just saying that we are, of course, does not make it so. It must be written in our heart by the Holy Spirit.

Did you know heart testimony is a key teaching of Mormonism.

Jeremiah 17:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

You have condemned a large group of people mostly sight unseen and never heard by you. Even if their doctrines are all wrong which is like not true, there are likely to be individuals who are pleasing God. To presume they are not is to speak for God and who among us can and does always do that?

Very liberal of you and the kind of thinking the seven churches of Revelation warn against.

What does the Bible say about having a different God or different salvation? You need to consider that.

 

[amadeus]

Did the apostles wait for people to ask them?

Were the apostles not led always by the Spirit? What does it mean to be led as opposed to taking the reins in your own teeth and forging ahead? Is not the latter that which followers of Jesus were guilty when they suggested calling fire down from heaven on those they presumed were God's enemies?

Because denominationalism is the division where people split to follow human teachers.

Paul condemned it.

Indeed, so then why pick on the JWs and Mormons in particular when probably every church group or denomination has been guilty. But even then if condemnation is a good thing, why condemn them all?

Did Paul so that?

Because I'm stubborn in the world from experience sometimes you have to be persistent to get through.

Did Jesus use anything other than the Word of God to convey His message?

So let them come to the forum and evangelize freely. Don't challenge them?

So then if you hear a call from God to challenge, why not challenge only the individual on a given point he has expressed rather than on generalizations or even specifics he has not expressed?

I will just use your own words to illustrate.

You said Word not word.

Is a verse of scripture cited verbatim by an avowed atheist used to prove his point, the Word of God? I believe that quoted verse of scripture is dead unless it brought to Life by the Holy Spirit in the speaker.

Word is logos. Not the written word.

I am not sure what you saying but... Logos means simply word uttered by a Living voice. Since all offspring of Adam, a dead man, were born dead they speak only with dead voices. This is changed when a person is in the Spirit speaking as led by God to speak. If a person who received the Holy Spirit quenches the Holy Spirit, his words are dead words.

Did you know heart testimony is a key teaching of Mormonism.

So then a person speaking from a heart filled with the Holy Spirit and led by the Holy Spirit is the Word of God even if the speaker happens to be a Mormon. Would you presume that no one bearing the designation of Mormon could also has the Holy Spirit within...? That is quite a presumption simply because you disagree with some or many of the doctrines of belief of that organization.

Jeremiah 17:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

Very liberal of you and the kind of thinking the seven churches of Revelation warn against.

What does the Bible say about having a different God or different salvation? You need to consider that.

I know I will be unable to convince you that a person with membership in a group you consider a cult to actually believe in the One True God.

The question I would put to you is where did any true believer in the One True God begin his walk with God? Did anyone start with the right heart but some wrong beliefs which began to undergo correction as he walked toward God? Did every believer in the One True God become correct in every point instantaneously or did he have to grow as a natural child has to grow before he has attained maturity?

What if simply walking in the right direction is all that is required by God rather than having all of the details hammered out perfectly and on the tip of your tongue?

Consider Jesus...

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

 

[CoreIssue]

="amadeus, post: 535503, member: 924"]Were the apostles not led always by the Spirit? What does it mean to be led as opposed to taking the reins in your own teeth and forging ahead? Is not the latter that which followers of Jesus were guilty when they suggested calling fire down from heaven on those they presumed were God's enemies?

You are changing the context of what you said and my reply.

Indeed, so then why pick on the JWs and Mormons in particular when probably every church group or denomination has been guilty. But even then if condemnation is a good thing, why condemn them all?

Because Paul was addressing Christian churches. The JW are not Christian.

Did Jesus use anything other than the Word of God to convey His message?

If you're trying to defend JW beliefs from the NWT Watchtower and teachings of Russell, you cannot. They violate the Bible.

So then if you hear a call from God to challenge, why not challenge only the individual on a given point he has expressed rather than on generalizations or even specifics he has not expressed?

I challenge specifics of what their cult teaches that is in violation of the Bible.

Is a verse of scripture cited verbatim by an avowed atheist used to prove his point, the Word of God? I believe that quoted verse of scripture is dead unless it brought to Life by the Holy Spirit in the speaker.

There are attempts to do so. But they do not withstand examination.

I am not sure what you saying but... Logos means simply word uttered by a Living voice. Since all offspring of Adam, a dead man, were born dead they speak only with dead voices. This is changed when a person is in the Spirit speaking as led by God to speak. If a person who received the Holy Spirit quenches the Holy Spirit, his words are dead words.

1. In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.
Since Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation that clearly makes the meaning the second person of the Trinity.

It means far more than words.

So then a person speaking from a heart filled with the Holy Spirit and led by the Holy Spirit is the Word of God even if the speaker happens to be a Mormon. Would you presume that no one bearing the designation of Mormon could also has the Holy Spirit within...? That is quite a presumption simply because you disagree with some or many of the doctrines of belief of that organization.

Mormonism has one God, their Father. Jesus Christ is a God, given birth by the father and one of his wives as a spirit child who was chosen to be Savior.

We are all pre-incarnate spiritual birthed by God and his wives then later given flesh in the womb.

Satan was also a child of God and wife.

The Holy Spirit is not what the Bible recognizes as the Holy Spirit.

They have a different salvation.

This is just a matter of difference of a few doctrines. This is a completely different God, Christ and salvation.

There are many creations out there with many gods. The father was born on planet Kolob.

Jehovah witnesses have a different God, Christ and salvation.

Christ is the angel Michael.

I know I will be unable to convince you that a person with membership in a group you consider a cult to actually believe in the One True God.

Agree.

The question I would put to you is where did any true believer in the One True God begin his walk with God? Did anyone start with the right heart but some wrong beliefs which began to undergo correction as he walked toward God? Did every believer in the One True God become correct in every point instantaneously or did he have to grow as a natural child has to grow before he has attained maturity?

What if simply walking in the right direction is all that is required by God rather than having all of the details hammered out perfectly and on the tip of your tongue?

When we begin our walk with Christ we are babes on milk. But we are expected to grow.

But the Bible was quite clear that it must be the true biblical Christ, God and salvation. If it isn't it is to be rejected.

I learned a ton over time. But there is no excuse for having a different Christ, God or salvation. Failures in complete understanding and need for growth, yes. But not the extremes of these cults.

Cult members on this forum are not new to their beliefs. They have held them for many years and embraced them.

I have actually helped some get out of Cults. But they were far different than the ones we have here evangelizing their beliefs or trying to pretend they are Christians like everyone else.

 

[amadeus]

You are changing the context of what you said and my reply.

Because Paul was addressing Christian churches. The JW are not Christian.

If you're trying to defend JW beliefs from the NWT Watchtower and teachings of Russell, you cannot. They violate the Bible.

I challenge specifics of what their cult teaches that is in violation of the Bible.

There are attempts to do so. But they do not withstand examination.

1. In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.
Since Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation that clearly makes the meaning the second person of the Trinity.

It means far more than words.

Mormonism has one God, their Father. Jesus Christ is a God, given birth by the father and one of his wives as a spirit child who was chosen to be Savior.

We are all pre-incarnate spiritual birthed by God and his wives then later given flesh in the womb.

Satan was also a child of God and wife.

The Holy Spirit is not what the Bible recognizes as the Holy Spirit.

They have a different salvation.

This is just a matter of difference of a few doctrines. This is a completely different God, Christ and salvation.

There are many creations out there with many gods. The father was born on planet Kolob.

Jehovah witnesses have a different God, Christ and salvation.

Christ is the angel Michael.


Agree.

When we begin our walk with Christ we are babes on milk. But we are expected to grow.

But the Bible was quite clear that it must be the true biblical Christ, God and salvation. If it isn't it is to be rejected.

I learned a ton over time. But there is no excuse for having a different Christ, God or salvation. Failures in complete understanding and need for growth, yes. But not the extremes of these cults.

Cult members on this forum are not new to their beliefs. They have held them for many years and embraced them.

I have actually helped some get out of Cults. But they were far different than the ones we have here evangelizing their beliefs or trying to pretend they are Christians like everyone else.

Sorry but I am presently unable to sift through all of this. Scanning through it I see that we disagree on things and agree on things. I would guess that God will have to sort it all out for if and when He sees the need. I will likely talk to you again on another subject here and hopefully we will both be edified!

Praise His name!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Holy Spirit is not what the Bible recognizes as the Holy Spirit.

No? The Bible is in error whilst Mormons are correct?
The holy spirit is what the Bible says it is.....God’s empowering spirit which can be sent whenever and to whomever God pleases to accomplish his purpose.......it is not, and has never been the third “person” in a three headed God.

They have a different salvation.

This is just a matter of difference of a few doctrines. This is a completely different God, Christ and salvation.

You think? I know which of us has a different God, Christ and salvation.....if you are promoting Mormonism, then yours is not the one spoken about by Jesus Christ, in the only word of God there is.

There are many creations out there with many gods. The father was born on planet Kolob.

And I will leave that there for your credibility to completely crumble. The Father was not born, and no one existed in the spirit realm before their birth as a human except Jesus Christ.....anything other than that scriptural truth, is utter unscriptural, nonsense.

 

[Davy]

Sure you can. Tell me what is the GODHEAD?

No, as I said, you cannot separate Lord Jesus' name from The Godhead of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit. That... is The GODHEAD. So also if you don't agree with God's Word that The GODHEAD is made up of Three Persons as ONE GOD, then it shows you can only think with your fleshy mind. Why is this so?

It is because NO man can save himself or us. Only God can save us.

Eternal Life originates and is given from a SOURCE, The GODHEAD, which means Lord Jesus Christ is included in that Power of Eternal Life of The GODHEAD.

Col 2:8-9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
KJV

And this...

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
KJV

The Jehovah Witness cult instead believes that Lord Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, and NOT God The Son. Therefore, they have REFUSED to believe on the ONLY Savior The Father sent which can give Eternal Life. And that means they REJECT Eternal Life through Christ's Blood shed upon His cross for the remission of sins unto Eternal Life. Afterall, an Archangel is NOT God Who only can save.

Thus it is VERY EASY to claim that the JW cult is NOT Christianity per The Bible. Isn't their writing their own Bible version that removes the idea of Christ's Deity not blasphemy against God's Word handed down through His servants? You bet it is, and the same applies to newer Bible translations today also that have been revised from corrupt manuscripts removing the Deity of Jesus Christ as God come in the flesh.

 

[Behold]

Do you know that...
​

If we say God has cancelled his promises to the children of Israel, what confidence can we have in His promises to us as Christians?

God didn't cancel this one.

Romans 10:12-13​

​

​

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentile): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

​

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

And Jesus said... "you believe in God... believe ALSO in ME".​

 

[Wrangler]

There is not a single New Testament scripture that calls Christians the witnessesof Jehovah.

Some might consider these verses indicate both John and Jesus are witnesses of Jehovah God.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him … made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,2 who bore witness to the word of God … 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God didn't cancel this one.

Romans 10:12-13​

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Gentile): for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

​

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

And Jesus said... "you believe in God... believe ALSO in ME".​

You know what’s doubly sad, is that scripture is quoted for what the words imply and their assumed meaning, without study of the Bible itself to confirm if it is correctly understood or translated.

“For the Scripture says, ”Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The opening words are important because of who is spoken about…..”the scripture says”….is referring to the OT and this is a reference to Isaiah 28:16…
“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a tested stone,
The precious cornerstone of a sure foundation.
No one exercising faith will panic”.”

These are God’s words.…and the second part “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord” is a quotation from Joel 2:32….where it says….”everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved“…..at the time the apostles lived, there was no NT.
“All scripture” that was “inspired of God“ referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 was a reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.

If the divine name had not been lost, then the ambiguity when identifying which “Lord” is meant, would not exist. “Jehovah” (YHWH) is God’s name….but ”Lord” is just a title, applied to various people in the Bible, including Jesus.
John 14:24…
”Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.”

Jesus did not speak his own words, but the words of his God And Father.
He is his Father’s “holy servant”…..(Acts 4:27)