The Jewish People are Jehovah’s Witnesses

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus was the ultimate Witness for God as a Jew who fulfilled the law. But he said to his disciples:

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” - Acts 1:8

Who was Jesus “the faithful witness” for....? Himself?
“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”. (Rev 3:14)

How can one be a witness for Jesus without being a witness for Jehovah......the one who “sent” him, in order to make his Father’s name known?
John 17:25-26...
“25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

Just as a side note......How is he “the beginning of God’s creation”?

 

[quietthinker]

Explain

well, looking at much of Hebrew history they seem to be keen on wiping out the nations around them if they can. If that behaviour represents Jehovah, wouldn't you say he's a scary God?

 

[Aunty Jane]

well, looking at much of Hebrew history they seem to be keen on wiping out the nations around them if they can. If that behaviour represents Jehovah, wouldn't you say he's a scary God?

Looking at Israel’s history....they did not go “wiping out the nations around” them unless they themselves were threatened. Their actions were defensive, not offensive. In that case, their God fought for them very decisively. If their enemies doubted the power of their God before they attacked Israel, desirous of their God-given land, they certainly did after a decisive defeat, no matter how powerful their armies were or how outnumbered Israel appeared to be.
If they ever tried to go to war without God’s sanction, he allowed their enemies to wipe the floor with them.

Is Jehovah a scary God?.....he is if you get on the wrong side of him.....we are not to disobey him. As our Creator, he has the right to set limits to our use of free will.

Hebrews 10:26-31....
“28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

You see?.....but if you do exactly as he tells you, you have nothing to fear from him at all.
If only Adam and his wife had simply done as they were told, we would not be living this miserable life full of trouble immorality and violence......self determination apart from God rarely works for our good.

 

[quietthinker]

Looking at Israel’s history....they did not go “wiping out the nations around” them unless they themselves were threatened. Their actions were defensive, not offensive. In that case, their God fought for them very decisively. If their enemies doubted the power of their God before they attacked Israel, desirous of their God-given land, they certainly did after a decisive defeat, no matter how powerful their armies were or how outnumbered Israel appeared to be.
If they ever tried to go to war without God’s sanction, he allowed their enemies to wipe the floor with them.

Is Jehovah a scary God?.....he is if you get on the wrong side of him.....we are not to disobey him. As our Creator, he has the right to set limits to our use of free will.

Hebrews 10:26-31....
“28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

You see?.....but if you do exactly as he tells you, you have nothing to fear from him at all.
If only Adam and his wife had simply done as they were told, we would not be living this miserable life full of trouble immorality and violence......self determination apart from God rarely works for our good.

Does God really sanction war? ie, the killing of other mothers sons to whom he gives life?
Does God really tell us to kill others or does he tell us not to?

As I read it, we are told to love our enemies and do good to those who despise us ....or does God live by a different standard than he tells us?

All these inconsistencies become clear in Jesus but do we want to take him seriously, do we want to hear how he defines God's character or do we prefer a God we can control; a God who reinforces our destructive natures; a God who approves of the desires and actions of the status quo be it religious or secular?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Does God really sanction war? ie, the killing of other mothers sons to whom he gives life?

Reading through scripture....the answer is “yes”. In that era, the enemies of God’s people invoked the power of their gods and attributed victory to them.....the God of Israel had to be seen to be superior. Then was not the time for the gentler approach of Jesus Christ.

Does God really tell us to kill others or does he tell us not to?

As Christians, in an entirely different era, and under a totally different covenant, God no longer sanctions bloodshed. He never sanctioned bloodshed for Israel either except when they were threatened.
When Jesus walked the earth the Jews were not in control of their land and had no army to participate in wars. Any who joined the Roman army were despised....like tax collectors.

God’s laws regarding “murder” were cut and dried. If you took a life intentionally, you paid with your own.
If you took a life even accidentally, there was still a penalty. God’s sanction in warwas the only difference.
He has not sanctioned a war since the diaspora. There was no land to defend...they lost it through their disobedience.

As I read it, we are told to love our enemies and do good to those who despise us ....or does God live by a different standard than he tells us?

You are speaking about the Christian Era now....Christ is the one calling the shots, and now we are under the new covenant, so many things were different to what they were in ancient Israel, and very different to Israel under the rule of the Pharisees.

All these inconsistencies become clear in Jesus but do we want to take him seriously, do we want to hear how he defines God's character or do we prefer a God we can control; a God who reinforces our destructive natures; a God who approves of the desires and actions of the status quo be it religious or secular?

There are no inconsistencies at all. For genuine Christians who understand what God requires of his worshippers, (and always has) we cannot create Jehovah in ‘our’ image because things said about his actions in the past, disturb us. If we remember that God’s justice is perfect, executed without sentiment because justice has no sentiment, then we will not allow our own sentimentality to make God into something he never was. God did what he did in the past for his own reasons, which we are not at liberty to judge by present day standards.

 

[face2face]

Does God really sanction war? ie, the killing of other mothers sons to whom he gives life?
Does God really tell us to kill others or does he tell us not to?

As I read it, we are told to love our enemies and do good to those who despise us ....or does God live by a different standard than he tells us?

All these inconsistencies become clear in Jesus but do we want to take him seriously, do we want to hear how he defines God's character or do we prefer a God we can control; a God who reinforces our destructive natures; a God who approves of the desires and actions of the status quo be it religious or secular?

I still see you are wrestling with the God of the Bible quiet?

a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace. Eccl 3:8

King David grew up in both times! - by God sanctioned wars, David cast out the godless and idolaters from the land and brought about a time of peace for Israel (relatively speaking). These were nations who had no fear of God, or His Word and God had promised the Land to Abraham and his seed forever...David was only doing what Christ will do in the earth when he returns (completely). For now the Saints in training are to heed the command for peace, "blessed are the peacemakers" for they will be God's Children. The earth will see rightous war once more, but not before the Captain of the Army of Hosts is here to instruct it!

It seems you keep coming back to the Cost of Creation principle...God takes no pleasure in killing people, but He will if they are but mindless animals who will not submit to His Will.

F2F

 

[face2face]

well, looking at much of Hebrew history they seem to be keen on wiping out the nations around them if they can. If that behaviour represents Jehovah, wouldn't you say he's a scary God?

Yes, one to Fear...note the order Quiet: I mean really note the order!

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul (means: life) Deut 10:12

Fear (beginning of wisdom and knowledge) --> Walk (begin to practice knowledge) --> Love (Love cannot take place immediately...its learnt through experiencing Him) --> Serve (every disciple wants to be here - true heartfelt service!)

To be on the side of His Severity is know laughing matter - set your mind to understand His goodness and seek His Favour is all one can do.

F2F

 

[RR144]

Who was Jesus “the faithful witness” for....? Himself?
“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”. (Rev 3:14)

How can one be a witness for Jesus without being a witness for Jehovah......the one who “sent” him, in order to make his Father’s name known?
John 17:25-26...
“25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

Just as a side note......How is he “the beginning of God’s creation”?

Perhaps Jane, you take the time to read what I said .... I'll wait

 

[RR144]

well, looking at much of Hebrew history they seem to be keen on wiping out the nations around them if they can. If that behaviour represents Jehovah, wouldn't you say he's a scary God?

And who told them to "wipe out the nations around them"? I'll wait

 

[quietthinker]

Reading through scripture....the answer is “yes”. In that era, the enemies of God’s people invoked the power of their gods and attributed victory to them.....the God of Israel had to be seen to be superior. Then was not the time for the gentler approach of Jesus Christ.

As Christians, in an entirely different era, and under a totally different covenant, God no longer sanctions bloodshed. He never sanctioned bloodshed for Israel either except when they were threatened.
When Jesus walked the earth the Jews were not in control of their land and had no army to participate in wars. Any who joined the Roman army were despised....like tax collectors.

God’s laws regarding “murder” were cut and dried. If you took a life intentionally, you paid with your own.
If you took a life even accidentally, there was still a penalty. God’s sanction in warwas the only difference.
He has not sanctioned a war since the diaspora. There was no land to defend...they lost it through their disobedience.

You are speaking about the Christian Era now....Christ is the one calling the shots, and now we are under the new covenant, so many things were different to what they were in ancient Israel, and very different to Israel under the rule of the Pharisees.

There are no inconsistencies at all. For genuine Christians who understand what God requires of his worshippers, (and always has) we cannot create Jehovah in ‘our’ image because things said about his actions in the past, disturb us. If we remember that God’s justice is perfect, executed without sentiment because justice has no sentiment, then we will not allow our own sentimentality to make God into something he never was. God did what he did in the past for his own reasons, which we are not at liberty to judge by present day standards.

Your argument AJ is not rationale.
If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow your argument is eroded.

When James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven to consume the Samaritans (copying Elijah's exercise of murder) Jesus rebuked them by saying '“You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.56[l]For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”.

If God is not consistent irrespective of which age we live in there can be no surety of anything let alone hope.
Jesus is the only eyewitness of God ie, as Hebrews tells us, the exact representation. Does Jesus destroy his enemies?

 

[quietthinker]

I still see you are wrestling with the God of the Bible quiet?

a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace. Eccl 3:8

King David grew up in both times! - by God sanctioned wars, David cast out the godless and idolaters from the land and brought about a time of peace for Israel (relatively speaking). These were nations who had no fear of God, or His Word and God had promised the Land to Abraham and his seed forever...David was only doing what Christ will do in the earth when he returns (completely). For now the Saints in training are to heed the command for peace, "blessed are the peacemakers" for they will be God's Children. The earth will see rightous war once more, but not before the Captain of the Army of Hosts is here to instruct it!

It seems you keep coming back to the Cost of Creation principle...God takes no pleasure in killing people, but He will if they are but mindless animals who will not submit to His Will.

F2F

You give these answers F2F because you do not know Jesus. You know about him a bit like James and John when they wanted to fry the Samaritans....but you do not know him. James and John didn't know him till after the resurrection. They tried to superimpose the God that they had learned about from the OT onto Jesus. Jesus opened a window for them which was totally foreign.

Knowing Jesus shifts how the writers of the OT, by and large, saw the character of God.

Go on, ask the right questions and an opportunity for giving better answers will avail itself.

 

[quietthinker]

And who told them to "wipe out the nations around them"? I'll wait

Good question. They thought it was God.
Another question, by what criteria do we determine who is speaking?

 

[Wrangler]

Not sure how this thread devolved to this or what Bible you 2 are reading.

Looking at Israel’s history....they did not go “wiping out the nations around”

I'm disappointed that you repeat this after I took you to task for denying the Conquest of Canaan was indeed Israel wiping out the nations around, not defensive but offensive.

Does God really sanction war? ie, the killing of other mothers sons to whom he gives life?
Does God really tell us to kill others?

Yes, God really sanctioned war - over and over and over again. Not only for Israel but against Israel when it rebelled. It is important to note that God commands a very personal war and not the sterile "military targets" only embraced today AS IF civilians are beyond reproach. Houses are plundered and women raped at God's command in the wars he commanded.


For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped.
Zechariah 14:2 ESV

And yes, God really tells us to kill others.


35 And the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Numbers 15:35-36 (ESV)

Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
1 Samuel 15:3 (ESV)

You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex.
Numbers 31:17

Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women
Ezekiel 9:6

 

[quietthinker]

Not sure how this thread devolved to this or what Bible you 2 are reading.


I'm disappointed that you repeat this after I took you to task for denying the Conquest of Canaan was indeed Israel wiping out the nations around, not defensive but offensive.

Yes, God really sanctioned war - over and over and over again. Not only for Israel but against Israel when it rebelled. It is important to note that God commands a very personal war and not the sterile "military targets" only embraced today AS IF civilians are beyond reproach. Houses are plundered and women raped at God's command in the wars he commanded.


For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:2 ESV

And yes, God really tells us to kill others.


35 And the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Numbers 15:35-36 (ESV)

Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
1 Samuel 15:3 (ESV)

You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex.
Numbers 31:17

Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women
Ezekiel 9:6

Have you met Jesus Wrangler? Maybe you don't believe in him but prefer to believe in how the many OT folk saw God?

 

[Wrangler]

Have you met Jesus Wrangler?

Woah! When you badly lose the argument, rather than admit your assertions were completely wrong, change the subject and make it about me personally. Nice!

 

[quietthinker]

Woah! When you badly lose the argument, rather than admit your assertions were completely wrong, change the subject and make it about me personally. Nice!

aren't my questions valid? I'm sorry they make you feels uncomfortable.

 

[Wrangler]

aren't my questions valid?

No. What would be valid at this juncture is your admission that God really sanctions war and really tells us to kill others.

Invoking a diverson in the form of a question does not make the diversion valid.

I'm sorry they make you feels uncomfortable.

More Ad Homenim. This thread is not about me. Stop changing the subject.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm disappointed that you repeat this after I took you to task for denying the Conquest of Canaan was indeed Israel wiping out the nations around, not defensive but offensive.

Sorry I can’t recall the discussion……but you do understand why God sanctioned the conquest of the land of Canaan ? It was probably the only offensive war they ever fought….but it had God’s sanction, nonetheless.

Numbers 13:1-2….
“13 Jehovah now spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Send out for yourself men that they may spy out the land of Caʹnaan, which I am giving to the sons of Israel. You will send out one man for each tribe of his fathers, each one a chieftain among them.”
This is the land gifted to the sons of Israel by Jehovah. As the Creator, did he not have the right to give whatever he wanted to give his chosen nation?

He explained to the Israelites: “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan.” (Leviticus 25:38)

In keeping with God’s decree, the Israelites under Joshua‘s command, subjected Canaanite cities to complete destruction when they eventually came into the Promised Land. The instructions from God were: “You should without fail devote them to destruction. You must conclude no covenant with them nor show them any favor.” But why would God do such a thing?

There were principally two reasons why Jehovah gave the land of Canaan to the Israelites and authorized them to dispossess the Canaanite populations.
First, centuries before, God had promised this very land to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And secondly, because of their extreme wickedness the Canaanite people merited destruction.

Archeologists unearthing artifacts from that place were alarmed at the depravity of the people living in Canaan. One saying that it was a wonder that God did not destroyed them sooner.

 

[Wrangler]

Sorry I can’t recall the discussion……but you do understand why God sanctioned the conquest of the land of Canaan ? It was probably the only offensive war they ever fought ….but it had God’s sanction, nonetheless.

The WHY is irrelevant to the point. The WHAT is that God sanctioned offensive war, period.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The WHY is irrelevant to the point. The WHAT is that God sanctioned offensive war, period.

The WHY is the point Wrangler. It was the wars that God didn’t sanction that he did not support and would not defend his nation. They were not to go about conquering other nations for the greed and power of conquest as other nations did who did so in the name of their gods.
The land was promised to them by the owner of that land.

The inhabitants of Canaan were extremely wicked and immoral, so Israel was used as God’s executioners.
They were told not to spare anyone….
Deut 7:2…..
“Jehovah your God will give them over to you, and you will defeat them. You should without fail devote them to destruction. You must not make any covenant with them nor show them any favor.”

Joshua 10:40…
”Joshua conquered all the land of the mountainous region, the Negʹeb, the She·pheʹlah, and the slopes, and all their kings, not letting any survivor remain; he devoted everything that breathed to destruction, just as Jehovah the God of Israel had commanded.”

I am not even sure why this is a sticking point for you….?