The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

I don't know any scripture that says that, Nancy. Feel free to share.

From what I have learned in scripture is that we may not abide in Him and some will err from the truth and even have their faith overthrown, but He is the One that is faithful and that is why scripture says He will never depart, even from the ones that gets left behind at the pre great trib rapture event.

Sure, I can give you some scriptures! There are two main issues that I see. First, there is the problem with regeneration. The bible is quite clear that when one is saved, one becomes a completely new being. Now...there is nowhere in scripture, that I am aware, that talks about becoming "un-new". I can't quite see how to get around the 'new', 'visiting death again', 'new again' sort of problem here.
Anyway, here are some verses that speak of the new creation we become and how the Spirit dwells within us:

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:9

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5

For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away, or the Spirit will abandon them (I know you are not suggesting that, but I'm trying to follow the logic all the way through here).

..even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. - John 14:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17

A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed. So, I see that as a bit of a problem.

Also, there are all the verses that talk about how, once saved, we can have assurance in that salvation.


All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6:37–40


And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. - Philippians 1:6


which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me. - 2 Timothy 1:12

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, - Jude 24

 

[Naomi25]

Jesus gave the parable of the seed and the sower in how some will get saved but not root themselves in the word that they fall away.

Jesus is warning churches in Revelation as this one church is the clear consequence of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation if they do not repent.

The parable of the prodigal son has him giving up his first inheritance for wild living and when he has lost everything and was destitute, he returns because he is still son.

That seal of adoption is not going anywhere and Hebrews 12:1-26 although read as if it applies to the times we are living in, it can also apply to those left behind as being chastened by the Father.

Okay, there is a lot of content here, and I really don't know that I can address every point. I think, mainly, I need to give this verse:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. -1 John 2:19

This is something we see very clearly today, and was obviously a problem in the early church as well. People who attend church and claim to be Christians. They know all the words, the verses, the hand raising motions. The give well, of money and time and have a good reputation within their church and community. And then the bottom falls out. He's having an affair with the secretary, leaves his wife, ditches church, and is gone, leaving a broken, devastated family and a confused and hurting Church, wondering...what? Surely this man had been a Christian...how can you fake that?
But they can, and they do. And they get a great deal of benefit from doing so. False leaders make money and connections, false members a safe community until it becomes a judging one. But eventually, they 'go out from us', proving that they were not really 'of us.'
John tells us that had they truly been 'of us', they would have persisted with us. The fact they leave, means many (not all) just do not have that new heart.

As far as the parable of the seed goes...well, I must respectfully put forth that there are more than one interpretation on that parable. You see...when a person becomes a Christian, it requires both intellectual 'belief', and spiritual assent (faith). This parable covers how many people will intellectually look at the gospel with interest, even excitement, but when the cares, or pleasures of this world intercedes, they do not have the necessary faith, or, indeed, new heart, to persist in that journey.

The church is to excommunicate an unrepentant brother from the assembly for this purpose in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 as that will be the same purpose for why God will judge His House first and disqualified any saved believer found in iniquity, but they are still His. Luke 12:40-49 has those cut off and with the unbelievers as those cut off are still called His servants and they will get stripes per the measure of knowledge for not preparing for the Bridegroom when He had come.

What do you mean by "disqualify any saved believer found in iniquity"? Because, to be perfectly honest, it sounds like a twisty knot that I can't quite unravel.

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezekiel 36:25–27


For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” - Jeremiah 31:33–34

God himself tells us that when we are "In Christ Jesus", he has made us a new person. Not only does he "author and finish" our faith, but he "remembers our iniquity no more".
So I can't quite understand where, in scripture, you find the idea that we can render ourselves into a state that God promises us we can't get to.

1 Corinthians 5...I'll be honest with you...I have no idea what it's talking about. I could guess, but that's all it would be. However, I still don't embrace the idea of building a whole doctrine out of one or two vague passages, not when stacked up against plethora of those that speak of God's strength and faithfulness in keeping, and finishing what he has started in us.

I might call it halt there, as this is becoming a marathon, and should I try and answer all your post, it would become overwhelmingly long!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Sure, I can give you some scriptures! There are two main issues that I see. First, there is the problem with regeneration. The bible is quite clear that when one is saved, one becomes a completely new being. Now...there is nowhere in scripture, that I am aware, that talks about becoming "un-new". I can't quite see how to get around the 'new', 'visiting death again', 'new again' sort of problem here.

No believer can become unsaved, but they can become defiled by iniquities and unless they repent with His help, they run the risk of being judged by whatever works remaining on that foundation with physical death; not spiritual death as explained in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 as God did wared teh church at Thyatira of that very thing when being cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:21-25

Anyway, here are some verses that speak of the new creation we become and how the Spirit dwells within us:

Your verses I left out of quote to be easier to read with what I have to share with verses in that chpater.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:9

Romans 8:There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit..... 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those verses were before your verse, thus indicating that as a warning to saved believer what happens if they live after the flesh still...

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5

For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away, or the Spirit will abandon them (I know you are not suggesting that, but I'm trying to follow the logic all the way through here).

Not talking about losing salvation just because a unrepentant believer gets left behind. They run the risk of losing their first inheritance which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Those disqualified is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from but they are still in His House, but denied the inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House to live forever like the angels AND to live in the city of God.

In other words, even though the prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living, he will find that he is still son. Like Esau losing his birthright for a meal, so will God be judging His House first on whom is abiding in Him as His disciples to be taken to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Okay, there is a lot of content here, and I really don't know that I can address every point. I think, mainly, I need to give this verse:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. -1 John 2:19

This is something we see very clearly today, and was obviously a problem in the early church as well. People who attend church and claim to be Christians. They know all the words, the verses, the hand raising motions. The give well, of money and time and have a good reputation within their church and community. And then the bottom falls out. He's having an affair with the secretary, leaves his wife, ditches church, and is gone, leaving a broken, devastated family and a confused and hurting Church, wondering...what? Surely this man had been a Christian...how can you fake that?
But they can, and they do. And they get a great deal of benefit from doing so. False leaders make money and connections, false members a safe community until it becomes a judging one. But eventually, they 'go out from us', proving that they were not really 'of us.'
John tells us that had they truly been 'of us', they would have persisted with us. The fact they leave, means many (not all) just do not have that new heart.

John 10:1-5 speaks of believers that go astray by climbing up another way in approaching God the Father by other than by the only way of the Son. Believers that gained tongues for private use by experiencing what they believe was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation later in their lives as a saved believer have gone astray and uses those "spirits" in communicating with God when they are not. It is after the rudiment of the world for sinners to use spirits to come to their gods or other spirits in speaking to. That is why God's gift of tongues is only for speaking unto the people as it is of other men's lips for that purpose alone.

That is why those believers are approaching God in the wrong way for why they are supposed to go before that throne of grace to pray normally by way of the Son as Jesus cited the thief as the one that come before Jesus in leading believers up another way which they are not. Jesus is the Bridegroom in how we are intimate with God by; There is no other way to the Father in anything ( John 14:6 ) in worship, prayer, or in fellowship.

That being said, Jesus spoke of them that went astray as still His sheep in John 10:16 as the ones that followed the stranger's voice; tongues without interpretation as gibberish, as after the rapture, as that other fold that did not follow His voice, but a stranger's voice, He MUST bring them because they are His sheep and they will be made to hear His voice when they are resurrected at the end of the great tribulation to stand before Him as their King of kings and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

I try to shorten the reply as well due to content. My reply for Nancy due to the many scriptural references for points being made was for a Bible study since no one likes to read long posts which mine has a tendency to go at lengths.

 

[Naomi25]

No believer can become unsaved, but they can become defiled by iniquities and unless they repent with His help, they run the risk of being judged by whatever works remaining on that foundation with physical death; not spiritual death as explained in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 as God did wared teh church at Thyatira of that very thing when being cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:21-25



Your verses I left out of quote to be easier to read with what I have to share with verses in that chpater.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. - Romans 8:9

Romans 8:There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit..... 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those verses were before your verse, thus indicating that as a warning to saved believer what happens if they live after the flesh still...

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5



Not talking about losing salvation just because a unrepentant believer gets left behind. They run the risk of losing their first inheritance which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Those disqualified is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from but they are still in His House, but denied the inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House to live forever like the angels AND to live in the city of God.

In other words, even though the prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living, he will find that he is still son. Like Esau losing his birthright for a meal, so will God be judging His House first on whom is abiding in Him as His disciples to be taken to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor.

I think...that perhaps we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go. Not because I haven't enjoyed it...it's always good when you can talk to someone about something and they don't go ultra defensive because there are differences, so thank you. But, I think we see things quite differently, and I'm not sure how else to try and explain myself. It seems to me that while you are saying that these people...who are 'believers', cannot loose their salvation, you constantly describe them producing fruit and behavior that would call into question if they were saved in the beginning or at all. You obviously see the scripture that backs that up, while I just cannot, sorry. So, in hope of not going around and around and getting frustrated with one another, how about we agree to disagree, and walk away!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I think...that perhaps we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go. Not because I haven't enjoyed it...it's always good when you can talk to someone about something and they don't go ultra defensive because there are differences, so thank you. But, I think we see things quite differently, and I'm not sure how else to try and explain myself. It seems to me that while you are saying that these people...who are 'believers', cannot loose their salvation, you constantly describe them producing fruit and behavior that would call into question if they were saved in the beginning or at all. You obviously see the scripture that backs that up, while I just cannot, sorry. So, in hope of not going around and around and getting frustrated with one another, how about we agree to disagree, and walk away!

Well, you can always pray to understand where I am coming from which doesn't mean that you will agree with it when He helps you understand it, but I agree to disagree.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

It seems that there has been a discussion on the word "regeneration" as found in Matthew 19:28, which is a reference to the "regeneration" of all people at the time, just prior to the Great White Judgement, and the "regeneration" of the saints in Titus 3:5 who have accepted Christ by being "renewed" by the Holy Spirit. The same Greek word is found in Romans 12:2 where it is found addressing the singular making like new again by the transforming of our mind of an individual saint.

In the Greek there is a distinction between "brand" new and made "like" new. In the Greek, there are two different words used. Sadly in the English there is no distinction as there is in the Greek, and as such the intended meaning of these two Greek words has been watered down, so to speak, and the original context of the respective passages where they are found has been lost.

I have a "new" house because of the renovation work that I have undertaken on the original house that I brought. The outside visual of the house looks much like the same, but the interior of the house has been radically transformed to suit the intended purpose of the house to be a blessing to all who might encounter/enter our house.

The same is also true for the "Saints," we are required to be renewed in the mind/spirit, which is not seen because it is internal, but that renewal of our mind is experienced by the people whom we rub shoulders with on a daily basis which then sets us apart from the people we interact with on a daily basis.

God requires us to "grow," through our personal regeneration of the mind assisted by the Holy Spirit, into "His People" that he intended us to be from the beginning of time. We are changed from the inside out such that although we may look the same, from an outside perspective, we have been made like new again on the inside and it is this internal change in us that bears the fruit that speaks volumes of who we are in Christ.

Shalom

 

[larry2]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.
I know it had a hold on everyone for quite a few years and I feel the tides are turning.

Hi Brother Allen. I reckon I am somewhat old school, read much scripture at face value, and to make logic of the many concepts presented.

The biggest thing I see separating much of the Church, and their understanding of things to come is the term “The Lord’s Day” applied to mean Sunday instead of “The Day of the Lord.”

Instantly the Apostle John is illustrated caught in Spirit into heaven somewhere around 2000 years earlier than when Jesus actually receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. It is at that future time we see Jesus surrounded by some of the Church which are described as the 24 elders & the 4 Living Ones.

It is that future time of Jesus taking that all power given Him in Mt 28:18 that John is shown different viewpoints from that future perspective described in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. The things we read of forward of Rev 4:1 are totally the beginning of Jesus’ rule in heaven beginning with His millennial kingdom, and that is where John was caught forward to referred to as the Lord's Day in Rev 1:10.

Heb 2:8 Thou (God our Father) hast put all things in subjection under His (Jesus’ feet) feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

At this present time Jesus walks among the candlesticks (churches in Rev 2:1), and that is the judgment that begins at the house of God we read of in 1 Pet 4:17. Its assessments are given in Revelation chapters two & three.

I’ll leave off here for the moment.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.
I know it had a hold on everyone for quite a few years and I feel the tides are turning.
Prib-trib rapture is based on a few verses in the Bible that some people have misused.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18;
Then 2 verses later, the Apostle Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3;
Conveniently, some guy 300 years ago put chapters in the Bible to cause all kinds of confusion that goes on to this day.
People like to use Revelation 3:10;
That just means you'll escape the Great White Throne Judgement because that's when God's wrath really swings forward.
People don't want to think that, they want the easy way out.
"Oh, God will never let me feel pain, oh."
Tell that to the Christians who went into the arena to meet the lions.
Now that's no joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pre-trib is for sissies.
God is building up an army to face anything the enemy has.
Put on the armor of God and share the Gospel through prayer and the Word of God.

You forgot Rev 12:5. It's not about physical or mental strength Rollo. It's about belief in the blessed hope. The rapture brings hope.

 

[Enoch111]

The biggest thing I see separating much of the Church, and their understanding of things to come is the term “The Lord’s Day” applied to mean Sunday instead of “The Day of the Lord.”

The Day of the Lord (or the Day of the LORD) cannot possibly be "the Lord's Day". The Lord's Day is the first day of the week (commonly known as Sunday), and has been recognized as the day of Christian worship and rest since apostolic times. See the History of the Christian Church (from which I have quoted in another thread).

On the other hand, the day of the LORD is a period of SEVERE DIVINE JUDGMENTS. So why would the apostle John be experiencing severe divine judgments at the same time that he was receiving divine revelations from Christ? Do you see how bizarre that would be?

 

[Jay Ross]

You forgot Rev 12:5. It's not about physical or mental strength Rollo. It's about belief in the blessed hope. The rapture brings hope.

Rapture is the hope of not being refined in pain and discomfort.

Meeting Christ in the air when He comes as His own, is another thing that hinges on when we believe that that event occurs. My perspective is that this event of seeing Christ come with all of the heavenly hosts, is still a distant future event and any work on out part to attempt to determine when it will occur, at this present time, is pure futility on our part.

Shalom

 

[larry2]

The biggest thing I see separating much of the Church, and their understanding of things to come is the term “The Lord’s Day” applied to mean Sunday instead of “The Day of the Lord.”

The Day of the Lord (or the Day of the LORD) cannot possibly be "the Lord's Day". The Lord's Day is the first day of the week (commonly known as Sunday), and has been recognized as the day of Christian worship and rest since apostolic times. See the History of the Christian Church (from which I have quoted in another thread).

On the other hand, the day of the LORD is a period of SEVERE DIVINE JUDGMENTS. So why would the apostle John be experiencing severe divine judgments at the same time that he was receiving divine revelations from Christ? Do you see how bizarre that would be?

Hi Brother Enoch111 and thanks for the opportunity to discuss this. I near give up on forums with no input.
I have never found corroboration, or substanitiation for the early church fathers assigning the term "The Lord's Day" to be Sunday.
What I see is the fact that John describes the three viewpoints given him by Jesus' angel from the time Jesus takes His own throne in Rev 4:2, and from that very point in time John describes the hereafter.

As far as I've been able to see, the events John describes beginning with Rev 4:1 did not occur on some Sunday in 70 AD or so. I am certainly interested in your thoughts as to why you think all this occurred 2000 years or so ago. Thanks in Christ.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Rapture is the hope of not being refined in pain and discomfort.

Meeting Christ in the air when He comes as His own, is another thing that hinges on when we believe that that event occurs. My perspective is that this event of seeing Christ come with all of the heavenly hosts, is still a distant future event and any work on out part to attempt to determine when it will occur, at this present time, is pure futility on our part.

Shalom

Calling on the rapture has to do with despair and a loss of Jesus Christ, or one is not born again and is in darkness.

One who is Born Again however has Jesus Christ in there heart and Soul, so why would such a one be looking for Jesus to return, as he is with the Born Again now, not to mention how can Jesus Christ leave us, if he is with us from the beginning to the end as he says he is in fact.
No he is always here and anyone who says he is not is telling a lie.

So if one is claiming that Jesus is coming in the rapture then that makes Jesus a lie. so he is always here but a time will come as like now when the majority of people have turned there back on Jesus, but Jesus will come back in his 'true strength' when the works of Satan have destroyed most with there Freemason worldliness madness of turning the whole world upside down against God, as the RCC has always said about the freemasons, that it's object is to do such, getting rid of Church and State and making out that they are total respectable beyond questioning because they have the high road of being a secret society. you have no rights to know what they are up to you know.
Only demented idiots and fools try to hide things, because they are not of the light and doing cunning in darkness, not to mention threating others, they are nothing but thugs at heart.
The Freemasons have taken over the RCC now and they have worked there way into everything they can just like worm wood, first they started with the Jesuits and then went from there into protestants and the schools and governments under the darkness of Satan's powers.

Boy claiming a secret society and claiming to be above all reproach, is what I have heard everyone of them claim and then attack the RCC totally like a moron that knows bugger all about the subject in fact and the RCC is number one thing to be attacked on there list, why ? they fear to be exposed for what they truly are.
You can not reason with them because they have all been brainwashed.

 

[Jay Ross]

You can not reason with them because they have all been brainwashed.

Sounds like a common problem with a lot of people, even you and me may be included in that grouping. Maybe we have been brainwashed as well.

 

[Enoch111]

So if one is claiming that Jesus is coming in the rapture then that makes Jesus a lie.

Since it is Jesus who gave Paul the revelation of the Church and of the rapture of the Church, you should pay more attention to Scripture than your own ideas or the rants of others.

THE MYSTERY OF THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE

1 CORINTHIANS 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 THESSALONIANS 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Looks like we have reached a point where Christians REFUSE TO BELIEVE what is clearly stated in Scripture. How then do we expect unbelievers to believe?

 

[Vexatious]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.

LOL! Dispensationalism (the home of the pretrib rapture) has jumped the shark, so to speak. Their endless false predictions and torture of scripture has grown old. There are many pre-tribbers left. The stubborn ones will have to die (ironically) and be replaced by a more biblically-grounded generation. Everyone else is either coming around, or the opposite and leaving the faith, depending on which direction they abandon Dispensationalism.

 

[larry2]

Is anyone still pre-trib rapture.

Their endless false predictions and torture of scripture has grown old.

Would any believers already in heaven when John received the book of Revelation be considered pre-trib? Thanks.

 

[Vexatious]

Would any believers already in heaven when John received the book of Revelation be considered pre-trib? Thanks.

Pretrib is the doctrine that any day now Christians will, at the silent shout of an archangel, turn invisible, shed their clothes, and fly up to meet invisible Jesus in the air. And, then all Hell will break loose on Earth and the stars will fall from from the sky, billions of suns from millions of light-years away, and cause some burned patches on the ground upon impact, then everyone who follows the Talmud (an anti-Christian book that teaches Jesus is in Hell) will be saved.

This really is an accurate explanation of pretribber' beliefs.

 

[larry2]

Would any believers already in heaven when John received the book of Revelation be considered pre-trib? Thanks.

Pretrib is the doctrine that any day now Christians will, at the silent shout of an archangel, turn invisible, shed their clothes, and fly up to meet invisible Jesus in the air. And, then all Hell will break loose on Earth and the stars will fall from from the sky, billions of suns from millions of light-years away, and cause some burned patches on the ground upon impact, then everyone who follows the Talmud (an anti-Christian book that teaches Jesus is in Hell) will be saved.

This really is an accurate explanation of pretribber' beliefs.

Good morning Vexatious, and thanks for your reply.

You seem to have definite ideas as to the manner of the resurrection, and I suppose I agree with your description of pretribers that any saints described in heaven were in fact caught up to meet our Lord in the air. I'm not sure how they'll be dressed.

Do you in fact agree that any in the body of Christ (the Church) will ever be in heaven? If so, how do you see them get there?
How do you think Jesus' angel was there? Thanks.

 

[Vexatious]

Do you in fact agree that any in the body of Christ (the Church) will ever be in heaven? If so, how do you see them get there?
How do you think Jesus' angel was there? Thanks.

We die, and then in the Resurrection our spirit bodies (1Cor15:43) will meet Jesus in the sky.