So be it. You are welcome to believe what you want, but the teaching of what you believe is not something that I would undertake because of my fear of what God would do to me If I did.
The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture
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So be it. You are welcome to believe what you want, but the teaching of what you believe is not something that I would undertake because of my fear of what God would do to me If I did.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
I was just laughing at byGrace's reply to Stranger's post: "oh good.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The End ~~~~~~~~
...I think she was hoping that was the end of the thread lol. As far as what I think of the rapture? Over the years, I have changed my views, a couple of times and all I will say is, true or not-we need to be built up in the faith, be "weapon ready" (armor of God, of course,lol) We should strive to be as strong in the faith as possible...which is just good sense anyhow!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
What doesn't exist is a Biblical codex before 1400 A.D. which contains only 66 books. Go ahead and look. Any Bible in the world will do.
Your interpretation of Theopedia is faulty.
The Church is Christ on earth, as clearly indicated in Acts 9.4. Jesus says Saul is persecuting Him yet He is in heaven at the same time. Christ's reign on earth at the end of time IS NOT THE SAME SENSE as His current presence on earth.
The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29).
When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-rapture
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ’s return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29).
When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-rapture
Luke 10:18 Revelation 12:7-9
OzSpen
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teamventure,
Would you be so kind as to share with me exactly where in Irenaeus, Cyprian and other church fathers that I can find teaching on a pre-trib rapture?
Oz
Since I have simply shown you the chronological sequence of events in the Bible, this statement is ridiculous.
Not at all. Here is what is posted on Wikipedia, and represents that point of view:
"Amillennialism rejects the idea of a future millennium in which Christ will reign on earth prior to the eternal state beginning, but holds:
- that Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father,
- that Jesus also is and will remain with the church until the end of the world, as he promised at theAscension,
- that at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension), the millennium began, citing Acts 2:16-21, where Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 on the coming of the kingdom, to explain what is happening,
- and that, therefore the Church and its spread of the good news is indeed Christ's Kingdom and forever will be."
And the Church is NOT reigning on earth. Indeed in many countries, the Church is being persecuted and killed and genuine Christians are a minority in most countries. Also, God the Father has said to Christ "sit thou at my right hand until I make thy foes thy footstool". That will become a reality only after the Second coming of Christ and the destruction of His enemies.
This view is not only ludicrous, but it is faulty because it has no relationship to reality. Unfortunately, the Reformers simply went along with Augustine and the Catholic Church is this matter.
Again, this is not based on Scripture, since the literal reign of Christ on earth would not tolerate sin and evil, and only righteousness would prevail. There are numerous Scriptures which make this clear.
If Christ would not be literally reigning on earth during the Millennium, then there would be no need for Satan to be bound and unable to influence humans on earth.
Interpreting Rev 20 as Satan being presently bound is sheer nonsense, since Satan and his evil spirits are behind all the sin and evil that exists on earth and at war with Christians. The Bible says that he is presently the "god of this world" and the "prince of the power of the air", and that he goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
"The Bible says that he is presently the "god of this world" and the "prince of the power of the air", and that he goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." <---- Was gonna say that. And also, if THIS is the reign of Christ, (which it cannot possibly be right now on this earth) what have we to look forward to?? Satan IS the ruler of "this world" and has and is still manipulating people, including Christians...many of them. He is crafty, and so good at his job. If Christ were ruling, it would be next to heaven! His rule is perfect...humans though, sadly at the end of Christs reign, once satan is let out for a short while-and will once again (not all, but some) humans will turn away His perfect Truth and become enamored of the things of satan...sad indeed if this is indeed what will happen.
Exactly. This is so basic that even a child could understand it. That is why Amillennialism is PURE FANTASY.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
But is it. Is your interpretation of the Book of Revelation actually right. I have my interpretation, and I present it to see if others can bring correction to my understanding. I am happiest when people are able to do just that, as it means that they have a much better understanding of the scriptures than I do. Sadly, to many, do not understand the flaws in their own determination of what the scripture actually mean, and as such they do not provide any correction for what I understand. Your adopted theory of the order of the Book of Revelation is certainly one such example of a flawed understanding. That was why I openly stated that, "You are welcome to believe what you want, but the teaching of what you believe is not something that I would undertake because of my fear of what God would do to me If I did."
It seems that I am more cautious than you in what I teach.
BreadOfLife
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And, as I've educated you before - a thousand of your pathetic denials don't equal one shred of evidence . . .
Davy
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Fallacious reasoning by Amill is easily revealed, since they believe in the time of Acts is when Christ's millennium began, then in about 1040 A.D. His millennium ended. A millennium after all, is only 1,000 years. I didn't hear of Satan or the wicked going into the lake of fire back then, did anyone else here hear of that?
Naomi25
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You misunderstand the Amil's position here. When we speak of the 1000 year reign, we use the number symbolically. Which, I know, freaks you guys out. In the bible the number 1000 is often used to describe a perfect, full, amount of time, of God's choosing. In other words, God will wrap up the Millennium when he chooses, when he deems the time is right for Christ to return. In post #71 and in particular #86 I discuss this in detail, if you're interested in how we see this, and justify it biblically.
We know from scripture that Christ's kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), and that even now he is seated beside God above every name and authority. He IS ruling (Eph 1:20-22; Col 2:10; Heb 1:3b). So the question would be what? We also know that when he comes back he will put an end to death; the last enemy (1 Cor 15:25-27, 50-56). And once death has been defeated, the next Age is ushered in, new heaven and new earth(2 Pet 3:10). So, where does that leave a time period that is an exact 1000 years long, with Christ ruling on earth, that is just a fraction off being perfect but death still visits?
And as far as Satan goes...again, people consistently miss what Revelation actually says. Satan is bound against a specific action: deceiving the nations with an intent on bringing them together for war against the saints. Ever wonder why the gospel spreads and although people hate and persecute us they haven't managed to get rid of us yet? They are not permitted to yet, that's why.
Our reasoning is not as faulty as you would all suppose. And I do wonder why all you guys cannot just disagree with us, but somehow need to get a little dig in. We're stupid, or crazy. If you disagree with us, just say so in a Christian manner, y'all!
Davy
Well-Known Member
Those on an Amill belief don't understand, because the only time in God's Word where a literal time is written and we are to interpret it symbolically instead of literally, is when God says to, like in Ezekiel 4 with the day for a year, or in Daniel 9 where a seven is given to point to a period of seven years by marking certain events of history that came true. And expressions using numbers are still nothing but expressions, and not the same idea at all when God gives a prophecy involving a literal span of time.
Ephesians 1 does not say our Lord Jesus is ruling in His Kingdom as of yet. When He died on the cross He defeated the devil and death for us, but if you look you should notice the devil has not been destroyed yet; he is still being allowed to work evil in this world today and is free to do so (1 Peter 5:8). Jesus is over His Church on earth right now; He has not taken reign over the nations just yet. All things were created through Jesus in the beginning we are told (Col.1:15-16). So how is it that our Lord Jesus allowed himself to be born lowly of woman and submit to being crucified on the cross, if... since even then He had all power too, since all things were made through Him? Didn't He even say He could command His servants to fight if He wanted to, and prevent His crucifixion?
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV
He showed by that His Kingdom is not of this present world, meaning not of this present world time. And there is plenty of Bible prophecy easily understood to show that God is going to end this present world by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12). Thus Satan is still in control over the kingdoms of this world, as was shown in Luke 4 when He offered them to Jesus if He would bow to him. Like Rev.11 shows on the 7th trumpet, that is when Jesus' Kingdom in the world to come will begin here on earth, over all peoples and nations, and not just over His Church on earth which is only a small portion of this world today. You should read 1 Cor.15:23-28 again, because all His enemies have not been made His footstool yet. That is what His future 1,000 years reign is for. And I'll reveal a solid proof marker in God's Word for that future reign that it is impossible for Amil to refute:
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
To this day, that "synagogue of Satan", which represents the deepest workers against Christ on earth still, have not come to bow before our feet in worship. And that points to their bowing the knee to Christ Jesus Who will be next to His elect in that time. One cannot say those are bowing today and not be deemed a liar. And one cannot say they bowed the knee in the past and not be deemed a liar. And one who believes at Christ's 2nd coming we go straight into the new heavens and new earth time with the wicked already destroyed cannot say those had already bowed the knee and not be deemed a liar.
Naomi25
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Hi Davy, thanks for your reply. I have to disagree with your interpretation of numbers here, as do a lot of scholars. In fact one of your own, Jack Kelley, has several articles on his site, Grace Thru Faith, that deal with how number are often symbolic of a larger, spiritual truth, all the way through scripture. This is not just an Amil position.
that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, - Ephesians 1:20–22
Well, sorry to disagree, but I'd have to say that Ephesians 1 actually says that Jesus is reigning now, not just over his Church, but over "all rule and authority and power" and "every name". And not just in the next age, but in this one. So...if Jesus tells us that his Kingdom is not of this earth, but we know he IS ruling NOW...we must either make up some in-between de-facto kingdom, or we start looking at the Millennium being now.
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. - 1 Corinthians 15:23–26
Paul clearly lays out the expectation of what will happen for us here. When Christ returns he will put an end to death by giving believers their new, glorified bodies; the dead first, then those who are still alive. Then, when death is defeated by our transformation, he will deliver the Kingdom over to God. But to do this, the Kingdom must have had to have been. You cannot hand over a Kingdom that has not yet started, or has only begun moments ago.
It's a mistake to think that just because Satan is the Prince of this World, that God (and Christ) is not in ultimate control and is ultimately King. We know, as Christians, that Satan can only do what is permitted him. The book of Job shows us that, as does Christs claim to Peter that Satan was "asking to sift him like wheat".
Do you believe that because Satan and evil is present that God's will is not being done? That he is not ultimately steering history exactly where he wants it to go? How is that not ruling and reigning? The reason that Satan is still present during this time, and evil with him, is because death and the sin in man's heart is also present. Until Christ returns and does away with those things, even should Satan be defeated, this world would still be as it is. God chooses to prolong it because every day sinful people are choosing to willingly submit to him and be saved. And every soul Christ wins enrages the dragon. This is the Kingdom triumphing, the kingdom in power. How do you explain those Christians in Iran, or North Korea who have the heart and courage to suffer torture and horrifying death for their Lord?
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. - Revelation 2:10
Kingdom promises that come to pass because Jesus is on the throne, not Satan.
Well, again, I question the theological idea that Christ, being God, does not already have complete rule over the world. Even Satan is playing into his hands, as he did when he thought he had triumphed by killing Jesus on the cross.
And as for Rev 11:
The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” - Revelation 11:18
This is the time when the evil are judged and the just are given their rewards. This is the time when the New Heavens and New Earth are ushered in. It is not the beginning of the Millennium. It is the same events as these:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-32 ,46
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” - Revelation 20:11–21:4
While each account is slightly different, there is no mistaking the event and the ultimate outcome: people are judged and are either sentenced to hell or heaven. And once that has happened, the New Heavens and New Earth begin and death is no more.
Naomi25
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I think you are missing how multi-faceted the Kingdom can be. While it is now, it will also...be. The Kingdom, in its very nature, is eternal, never-ending. Just because right now it is "not of this Earth", as Jesus tells us, we also know from Rev 11 that a time will come...the "next age", when the "Kingdom of the Earth has become the Kingdom of our Lord". But where in scripture do we find, specifically, time for a literal 1000 year time when death still holds sway, when Jesus brings the Kingdom here? Unless you make scripture say it, it doesn't naturally. Naturally it tells us that when Christ returns, he brings the Kingdom, defeats death, judges the nations and renews the cosmos.
Consider these scriptures in regards to the fact that the Kingdom is, in fact, now:
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. - Matthew 13:36–43
The Son of Man sewed good seeds into the 'field'...the Kingdom. That is now. In fact, that is the time period since Christ, til his return. His return is the 'end of the age', where people will be judged and either tossed in hell, or go into everlasting glory in 'the Kingdom'. See how the kingdom is now, but will also continue in the New creation?
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 2 Thessalonians 1:5
"For which you ARE suffering". Paul talks about our suffering for the Kingdom in present tense. This passage also goes on to talk about how people will be judged, one way or the other AT Christ's return, not at the end of the Millennium. And since we know that once judgement comes, people are then passed into either heaven or hell, thus eternality, I question how we can have the Millennium, where apparently death is still a feature.
I'm not 100% certain of your point here, but I think you're saying that I have to be wrong because there are Jews who are not believers.
I'd have to say...that doesn't really prove or disprove anything. Many Jews are, in fact, Christians...all the apostles were and most of the early Christians were. Even now Jews are coming to Christ in larger numbers than they ever have. And most people reading Romans 9-11 would say that God is not done with national Israel, that before Christ's return, he will glorify himself by bringing record numbers of Jews to Christ.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I think you well understand what that Rev.3:9 verse is about, and it's timing. It's just that you refuse... it, and that just to keep your tradition.
The "synagogue of Satan" is not about true Judah. It is about the children of darkness that 'knowingly' work for Satan.
The ONLY time those will bow the knee in worship, with them at our feet, is during Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20. (I even marked that specific point in red about their bowing in worship in my previous post, so you could not... miss it, nor pass over it. Yet you still did.)
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
Phil 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
Rom 14:11-12
11 For it is written, 'As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.'
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
KJV
Rev 14:1
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV
That is future timing with Jesus (that "Lamb") standing on mount Zion in Jerusalem with His very elect servants. Those are who that synagogue of Satan will bow in front of in Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth.
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