the law of faith?

[CoreIssue]

Label it whatever you want. It still results in obeying YHWH's laws which include the 7th day Sabbath, the dietary laws, and the Feast Days.

Mosaic Law.

 

[prism]

This verse does not say Yeshua kept the law "in our stead". It says his obedience to the law paves the way for us to be made righteous. We must still obey the law so we do not sin for he said, "Go and sin no more".


Yes, the old nature is too weak to obey the law, but the new nature is not as long as we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us to obey it as per Ezekiel 36:26-27. However, if we fight against the Holy Spirit's leading by saying things like "the law is abolished", "the law is bondage", "the law no longer applies to believers", "the Sabbath is now Sunday", "we can eat whatever we want", etc., then we will continue to sin daily.


Correct. The old man refuses to obey Torah and the new man does not unless he fights against the Holy Spirit's leading as per Ezekiel 36.


The more we walk in the Spirit, the less we will fail.

I'm sorry but you are mixing law with grace and are still therefore under the curse of the law.

John 1:17 (ASV) For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:20 (ASV) And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:

Romans 6:14 (ASV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 2:21 (ASV) I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

Galatians 5:4 (ASV) Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

 

[gadar perets]

Mosaic Law.

The Mosaic Law IS the Law of YHWH. It still stands having been established by faith and is to be written on hearts and minds in the New Covenant.

 

[CoreIssue]

The Mosaic Law IS the Law of YHWH. It still stands having been established by faith and is to be written on hearts and minds in the New Covenant.

It was an annulled at cross.Christ fulfill it.

 

[gadar perets]

It was an annulled at cross.Christ fulfill it.

Messiah fulfilled it by obeying it all perfectly. Fulfilled does not mean abolish or annulled. Please cite a verse about the supposed annullment.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm sorry but you are mixing law with grace and are still therefore under the curse of the law.

That is your ignorance of Scripture and my life talking.

John 1:17 (ASV)

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

I agree. This does not mean Yeshua abolished the law.

Romans 5:20 (ASV)

And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly:

In other words, "but where breaking the law abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly." Grace does not abolish the law. It goes into action when we break the law.

Romans 6:14 (ASV)

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

"Not under the law" means not under its condemnation. It does not mean we need not obey it. All spiritually minded people are to be subject to the law whereas carnal people will not subject themselves to the law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 2:21 (ASV)

I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

My righteousness comes by faith in Messiah Yeshua, not by law.

Galatians 5:4 (ASV)

Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

I am justified by faith in Messiah, not by law. Therefore, I am not fallen from grace or severed from Messiah. Again, this is your ignorance of Scripture and my life talking.

 

[prism]

I agree. This does not mean Yeshua abolished the law.

Right, He fulfilled it.

"Not under the law" means not under its condemnation. It does not mean we need not obey it. All spiritually minded people are to be subject to the law whereas carnal people will not subject themselves to the law (Romans 8:7).

It also means we have died to the law that we may live to righteousness through faith in Jesus.

My righteousness comes by faith in Messiah Yeshua, not by law.

Are you speaking of imputed righteousness or that which is inwardly worked in us? I see it as both.

I am justified by faith in Messiah, not by law. Therefore, I am not fallen from grace or severed from Messiah. Again, this is your ignorance of Scripture and my life talking.

When you make comments like this "This verse does not say Yeshua kept the law "in our stead". It says his obedience to the law paves the way for us to be made righteous. We must still obey the law so we do not sin for he said, "Go and sin no more"."

I can only see you are making the same error the Galatians made by adding works to God's grace. They had fallen from grace by putting themselves back under the law and became a curse. Sure Jesus kept the law in our stead, it is our only hope of righteousness.

Galatians 2:19 (ASV) For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Galatians 3:3 (ASV) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?
Galatians 3:10-11 (ASV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
Galatians 3:21 (ASV) Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.
Galatians 3:24-25 (ASV) So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.

James sums up the problem well...
James 2:10 (ASV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.

 

[gadar perets]

Right, He fulfilled it.

Fulfilled does not mean abolished.

It also means we have died to the law that we may live to righteousness through faith in Jesus.

Yes, we have died, not the law. Now our righteousness comes though faith and that righteousness is manifested through the fruit of obedience to YHWH's laws.

Are you speaking of imputed righteousness or that which is inwardly worked in us? I see it as both.

I was referring to imputed righteousness, but both are true.

When you make comments like this "This verse does not say Yeshua kept the law "in our stead". It says his obedience to the law paves the way for us to be made righteous. We must still obey the law so we do not sin for he said, "Go and sin no more"."

I can only see you are making the same error the Galatians made by adding works to God's grace. They had fallen from grace by putting themselves back under the law and became a curse. Sure Jesus kept the law in our stead, it is our only hope of righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
​

Those good works include obedience to YHWH's laws. The Galatians were seeking to be justified by their works (Galatians 5:4). There is a big difference between keeping the law to be justified and keeping it out of love for YHWH.

Galatians 2:19 (ASV)

For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Galatians 3:3 (ASV) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?
Galatians 3:10-11 (ASV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;

The words I put in blue put Paul's words in context. We are under a curse when we put ourselves under the works of the law in order to be justified by them rather than by faith in Messiah.

Galatians 3:21 (ASV)

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.
Galatians 3:24-25 (ASV) So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.

One of the functions of the law was to lead us to Messiah in order to be liberated from sin. Our disobedience to the law drives us to Messiah and to freedom and liberty from sin through him and his shed blood. We were once imprisoned on death row because of our transgressions against the law. But now, the law has led us to Messiah and liberty. Once we are free from sin, Messiah then drives us back to obedience to the law through faith. We become doers of the word, or as Paul says, “doers of the law”, and not hearers only.

How do we know Yeshua is driving us back to obedience to the law through faith? Romans 3:30,31 says;

“Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith, do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”​

Why is the law being firmly established? Because Messiah is driving us back to obedience to it. Yeshua died because of my thefts, adultery, idolatry, lies, etc. How can I receive his cleansing and then go back to committing the same sins? I can't. I now choose to obey the laws forbidding stealing, adultery, idolatry, etc.

James sums up the problem well...
James 2:10 (ASV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.

So, what do you take from this verse? That we are not to obey any commandment of YHWH because it is impossible to without stumbling? If that is the case, then you will stumble at every point throughout your life, not just one point occasionally.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin (break the law), because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
​

We are to be servants of YHWH and Yeshua. As such, we are to obey their commandments even if we occasionally stumble.

 

[prism]

Fulfilled does not mean abolished.


Yes, we have died, not the law. Now our righteousness comes though faith and that righteousness is manifested through the fruit of obedience to YHWH's laws.


I was referring to imputed righteousness, but both are true.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Messiah Yeshua unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
​

Those good works include obedience to YHWH's laws. The Galatians were seeking to be justified by their works (Galatians 5:4). There is a big difference between keeping the law to be justified and keeping it out of love for YHWH.


The words I put in blue put Paul's words in context. We are under a curse when we put ourselves under the works of the law in order to be justified by them rather than by faith in Messiah.


One of the functions of the law was to lead us to Messiah in order to be liberated from sin. Our disobedience to the law drives us to Messiah and to freedom and liberty from sin through him and his shed blood. We were once imprisoned on death row because of our transgressions against the law. But now, the law has led us to Messiah and liberty. Once we are free from sin, Messiah then drives us back to obedience to the law through faith. We become doers of the word, or as Paul says, “doers of the law”, and not hearers only.

How do we know Yeshua is driving us back to obedience to the law through faith? Romans 3:30,31 says;

“Seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith, do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”​

Why is the law being firmly established? Because Messiah is driving us back to obedience to it. Yeshua died because of my thefts, adultery, idolatry, lies, etc. How can I receive his cleansing and then go back to committing the same sins? I can't. I now choose to obey the laws forbidding stealing, adultery, idolatry, etc.


So, what do you take from this verse? That we are not to obey any commandment of YHWH because it is impossible to without stumbling? If that is the case, then you will stumble at every point throughout your life, not just one point occasionally.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin (break the law), because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
​

We are to be servants of YHWH and Yeshua. As such, we are to obey their commandments even if we occasionally stumble.

Sorry I tried replying point by point, but my new keyboard messed up and lost everything. I am only going to answer one point per post from now on.
When it says 'we establish the law through faith (in Christ), it is saying that through faith in Jesus' perfect obedience rather than our imperfect obedience we are honoring the law, establishing it as plumb-line of perfect righteousness. Our law keeping establishes nothing except for the fact we continually fall short of it's demands.

Here is the Galatian mistake you are making...

Galatians 3:2-3 (NASB) This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

You are telling us "Good! You believe the Gospel, now get back to the law!!'

 

[gadar perets]

Sorry I tried replying point by point, but my new keyboard messed up and lost everything. I am only going to answer one point per post from now on.
When it says 'we establish the law through faith (in Christ), it is saying that through faith in Jesus' perfect obedience rather than our imperfect obedience we are honoring the law, establishing it as plumb-line of perfect righteousness. Our law keeping establishes nothing except for the fact we continually fall short of it's demands.

The Greek word translated word "establish" means to make stand", not "honor". Faith makes the law stand. It establishes it firmly as a plumb-line for believers to follow so as not to go astray and sin. Through the law/Torah written inwardly and the indwelling Holy Spirit, we now have the power to obey if we allow the Spirit to have its way rather than letting the flesh have its way.

I never said we "establish" something. Faith establishes the law.

Here is the Galatian mistake you are making...

Galatians 3:2-3 (NASB) This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

You are telling us "Good! You believe the Gospel, now get back to the law!!'

I am not telling you we are made perfect by the flesh. Nor am I saying we receive the Spirit by works. I am saying the Holy Spirit wants us to obey YHWH's laws under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Our obedience to those laws is a fruit of our salvation and the Spirit's work in us through faith. I was a thief before I came to faith. Then the Holy Spirit led me to understand that stealing is a sin as stated in the law. I heeded the Spirit's leading and never stole again. My faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit bore the fruit of obedience to that commandment. My faith caused that commandment to be firmly established in my life. The same goes for many other commandments that I now obey.

 

[CoreIssue]

Messiah fulfilled it by obeying it all perfectly. Fulfilled does not mean abolish or annulled. Please cite a verse about the supposed annullment.

Yes, Christ fulfilled it.

Any word you prefer that means it ended because the contract was fulfill is fine.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, Christ fulfilled it.

Any word you prefer that means it ended because the contract was fulfill is fine.

You didn't provide a verse showing fulfilled means the law ended.

 

[CoreIssue]

You didn't provide a verse showing fulfilled means the law ended.

Mosaic law is the Mosaic covenant. What you're doing is saying Israel and the church covenants exists at the same time. The Mosaic covenant and the blood covenant exist at the same time.

 

[gadar perets]

Mosaic law is the Mosaic covenant. What you're doing is saying Israel and the church covenants exists at the same time. The Mosaic covenant and the blood covenant exist at the same time.

No verse again? What is a "church covenant"? The law of the OC is Torah. Torah is to be written inwardly under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Yes, the two covenants exist at the same time, but not for one individual. An individual believer is only under the NC while unbelieving Jews are still under the OC.

 

[CoreIssue]

No verse again? What is a "church covenant"? The law of the OC is Torah. Torah is to be written inwardly under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Yes, the two covenants exist at the same time, but not for one individual. An individual believer is only under the NC while unbelieving Jews are still under the OC.

No, the two covenants do not coexist.

How about you proving they do? Where in the New Testament is that stated?

 

[gadar perets]

No, the two covenants do not coexist.

How about you proving they do? Where in the New Testament is that stated?

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.
​

This was written after the NC took effect. The OC was ready to vanish away, but hadn't yet.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.
​

This was written after the NC took effect. The OC was ready to vanish away, but hadn't yet.

New covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah will not take effect until second coming. Mosaic covenant is done.

We are under the blood covenant.

 

[gadar perets]

New covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah will not take effect until second coming. Mosaic covenant is done.

We are under the blood covenant.

What covenant are the Jews under? If not the Mosaic (Old) Covenant, provide a verse stating they are no longer under it.

 

[CoreIssue]

What covenant are the Jews under? If not the Mosaic (Old) Covenant, provide a verse stating they are no longer under it.

You have been answered on that many times by many people. But you always reject the answer.

 

[prism]

The Greek word translated word "establish" means to make stand", not "honor".

However you want to define it...the law stands/is established because the Gospel exalts Christ's righteousness Who was perfect in obedience to the Law. We don't have the necessary obedience, unless you have perfect obedience to the law.
Do you have perfect obedience to the law? No? Then how are you 'establishing' the law?