The "like manner" of Acts 1:9-11

[Earburner]

The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth. He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58) John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: “In the beginning the Word [Gr., Loʹgos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god [“was divine,” AT; Mo; or “of divine being,” Böhmer; Stage (both German)]. This one was in the beginning with God.” Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from “the beginning” must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works. This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation,” “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.

That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.

Jesus explains: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.”—John 8:21-23.

Jesus is referring to his prehuman existence in heaven and to his being the promised Messiah, or Christ, whom these religious leaders should be expecting.
So Jesus is part of creation he just isn't part of the physical creation(the universe where the stars and planet earth exist) He's from where the Angels exist.

Along the way of your discussion, you forgot that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, as not being created, but rather was "brought forth" (begotten) of/by the Spirit of God, who is and always will be "a spirit". Therefore, Jesus in His preincarnate state, was "a spirit" also, UNTIL He was SENT By God to be made to be flesh, in the likeness of man, but also as "the express image of God the Father."

Ever since His physical Birth (without a human father), His death, resurrection into immortality, and His Ascension to be with the Father,
He is and shall remain to be BOTH God and man, the Mediator between us and God the Father, for our salvation and redemption.

 

[Earburner]

^ Cont'd:
In light of your reference of NWT-John 1:1, I am aware that your quote: "and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god...", is extremely opposed to the KJV, saying: "the word was God".
These two renditions, are the results of interpretatation from two different Greek Texts.
NWT- from the Wescott & Hort Greek text; the KJV- from the Textus Receptus text.
From my perspective of the KJV, Jesus "was God" , and not "was a god". By that, I am meaning you have lost the correct meaning of the word "begotten".
God DID NOT create a god, or another little god, but rather " brought forth" out of Himself and from Himself Jesus, being the express image (duplication) of Himself, for His desired purpose that His express image of Himself as God, shall become THE Man of God in the flesh, of which He did, through the VIRGIN Mary, of which you cannot deny.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Along the way of your discussion, you forgot that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, as not being created, but rather was "brought forth" (begotten) of/by the Spirit of God, who is and always will be "a spirit". Therefore, Jesus in His preincarnate state, was "a spirit" also, UNTIL He was SENT By God to be made to be flesh, in the likeness of man, but also as "the express image of God the Father."

Ever since His physical Birth (without a human father), His death, resurrection into immortality, and His Ascension to be with the Father,
He is and shall remain to be BOTH God and man, the Mediator between us and God the Father, for our salvation and redemption.

The Bible calls Jesus the “only-begotten Son” of God. (John 1:14;3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?

Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus, “only-begotten” is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,” which is “to procreate as the father.” (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) They say that in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,” a sort of only son relationship without the begetting. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) Does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him?

Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father.

The basic Greek word for “only-begotten” used for Jesus and Isaac is mo·no·ge·nesʹ, from moʹnos, meaning “only,” and giʹno·mai, a root word meaning “to generate,” “to become (come into being),” states Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Hence, mo·no·ge·nesʹ is defined as: “Only born, only begotten, i.e. an only child.”—A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, by E. Robinson.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, says: “[Mo·no·ge·nesʹ] means ‘of sole descent,’ i.e., without brothers or sisters.” This book also states that at John 1:18; 3:16, 18; and 1 John 4:9, “the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.”

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life. And Almighty God can rightly be called his Begetter, or Father, in the same sense that an earthly father, like Abraham, begets a son. (Hebrews 11:17) Hence, when the Bible speaks of God as the “Father” of Jesus, it means what it says—that they are two separate individuals. God is the senior. Jesus is the junior—in time, position, power, and knowledge.

When one considers that Jesus was not the only spirit son of God created in heaven, it becomes evident why the term “only-begotten Son” was used in his case. Countless other created spirit beings, angels, are also called “sons of God,” in the same sense that Adam was, because their life-force originated with Jehovah God, the Fountain, or Source, of life. (Job 38:7; Psalm 36:9; Luke 3:38) But these were all created through the “only-begotten Son,” who was the only one directly begotten by God.—Colossians 1:15-17.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ONLY-BEGOTTEN

The Greek word mo·no·ge·nesʹ is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.

The Scriptures speak of “the only-begotten son” of a widow who lived in the city of Nain, of Jairus’ “only-begotten daughter,” and of a man’s “only-begotten” son whom Jesus cured of a demon. (Lu 7:11, 12; 8:41, 42; 9:38) The Greek Septuagint uses mo·no·ge·nesʹ when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: “Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter.”—Jg 11:34.

The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

He is described as having “a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father,” the one residing “in the bosom position with the Father.” (Joh 1:14, 18) It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this.

The angels of heaven are sons of God even as Adam was a “son of God.” (Ge 6:2; Job 1:6; 38:7;Lu 3:38) But the Loʹgos, later called Jesus, is “the only-begotten Son of God.” (Joh 3:18) He is the only one of his kind, the only one whom God himself created directly without the agency or cooperation of any creature. He is the only one whom God his Father used in bringing into existence all other creatures. He is the firstborn and chief one among all other angels (Col 1:15, 16; Heb 1:5, 6), which angels the Scriptures call “godlike ones” or “gods.” (Ps 8:4, 5) Therefore, according to some of the oldest and best manuscripts, the Lord Jesus Christ is properly described as “the only-begotten god [Gr., mo·no·ge·nesʹ the·osʹ].”—Joh 1:18, NW, Ro, Sp.

A few translations, in support of the Trinitarian “God the Son” concept, would invert the phrase mo·no·ge·nesʹ the·osʹ and render it as “God only begotten.” But W. J. Hickie in his Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament (1956, p. 123) says it is hard to see why these translators render mo·no·ge·nesʹ hui·osʹ as “the only begotten Son,” but at the same time translate mo·no·ge·nesʹ the·osʹ as “God only begotten,” instead of “the only begotten God.”

Paul referred to Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son” (Heb 11:17), even though Abraham also fathered Ishmael by Hagar as well as several sons by Keturah. (Ge 16:15; 25:1, 2;1Ch 1:28, 32) God’s covenant, however, was established only through Isaac, Abraham’s only son by God’s promise, as well as the only son of Sarah. (Ge 17:16-19) Furthermore, at the time Abraham offered up Isaac, he was the only son in his father’s household. No sons had yet been born to Keturah, and Ishmael had been gone for some 20 years—no doubt was married and head of his own household.—Ge 22:2.

So from several viewpoints in regard to the promise and the covenant, the things about which Paul was writing to the Hebrews, Isaac was Abraham’s only-begotten son. Hence, Paul parallels “the promises” and the “only-begotten son” with “‘your seed’ . . . through Isaac.” (Heb 11:17, 18).

Jesus is not just “a son of God.” That is how Satan referred to Jesus while tempting him. (Matt. 4:3, 6) Jesus is rightly called “the only-begotten Son of God.” (John 3:16, 18) The Greek word translated “only-begotten” has been defined as “single of its kind, only,” “the only member of a kin or kind,” or “unique.” Jehovah has hundreds of millions of spirit sons. In what sense, then, is Jesus the only one “of a kin or kind”?

Jesus is unique in that he is the sole direct creation of his Father. He is the firstborn Son. In fact, he is “the firstborn of all creation.” (Col. 1:15) He is “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Rev. 3:14) The only-begotten Son’s role in creation is also unique. He was not the Creator, or Originator, of creation. But Jehovah used him as the agent, or means, to create all other things. John 1:3.The apostle Paul wrote: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”—1 Cor. 8:6.

 

[justbyfaith]

So Jesus, the only-begotten Son, had a beginning to his life.

Indeed; for Jehovah had a Maker (Isaiah 45:11, Romans 1:3)

He is the firstborn and chief one among all other angels

And of course God the Father commanded that all the angles of God worship Him. And to the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever...

Jesus is rightly called “the only-begotten Son of God.”

And since this is the case, His name is rightly called the everlasting Father.

The apostle Paul wrote: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”—1 Cor. 8:6.

There is indeed only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Yet, in Matthew 11:25 and in Luke 10:21, Jesus called the Father "Lord of heaven and earth."

No contradiction here; for Jesus is the Father: as both are designated as the one Lord of holy scripture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Justbyfaith is saying that Jesus is the “God” referred to at Hebrews 1:8, is that true?

No. The weight of the evidence indicates that it is Jehovah. According to the New World Translation, Hebrews 1:8 says: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in Jehovah the Almighty God.

However, believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

With good reason, therefore, the New World Translation and a number of other translations render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” (See An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible.) This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is.

Does the fact that Jesus is said to be our everlasting father, make him Jehovah God our creator?

No see our everlasting father was suppose to be Adam that God created and put in Eden, but he failed us. He only brought death to us.
To unite mankind as one, Jehovah God provides for us a new father in the righteous new world. Adam the first man was the father he provided back there in the garden of Eden. But that father brought death upon all of us his children by not staying perfect and entitled to life. He broke his Creator’s command and law. So Adam proved to be a death-giver, not a life-giver for us. He died because of his sin. All the generations of his offspring have died one after the other, and we are dying. So Adam did not become our everlasting father. The one whom our Creator provides is his own living Son, Jesus Christ, who died as a perfect man for us but who now lives as an immortal spirit in his original heavenly home. “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor. 15:45, NW) On earth Jesus Christ was a Jew by nationality, and the Jews were separated from the other nations by their God-given law. But Jesus fulfilled the purpose of that law. By dying as a sacrifice, not for Jews only but for all mankind, he took away the division between Jew and every other nation. He made it possible for people of all nations to become Christians and become one flock in the united worship of the one God. So Jesus isn't the creator because he is our everlasting father. The Father and God of Jesus simply used his Only Begotten Son in order to buy back mankind.

In the coming new world Jesus will become the immortal father of all mankind to give them perfect human life on a paradise earth. Jehovah’s own prophecy says: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end.” (Isa. 9:6, 7, AS) By being born as a perfect human and sacrificing his human life as a High Priest he heals the breach between us and our Creator. Just as all mankind are now one flesh and family because of coming from the first man Adam, so all rescued mankind will become one in the new world because of becoming children of the Governor and Prince of Peace, the “Everlasting Father.” His own Father is God the Creator. Through Jesus, therefore, all saved mankind will have one Grand Father or Great Father, Jehovah.

 

[Earburner]

Thank you for your earnest and thorough research in your recent replies, and to much of what you say I do agree. However, my stand is about the simple understanding, that the created angels of God were not "brought forth" from out of God, as was Jesus.

In His situation, He is the ONLY one, prior to ALL creation, who is the express image of God the Father Himself, for the sole manifestation to ALL, of Who and what God the Father is Himself.

When Phillip questioned Jesus about seeing God the Father, Jesus let him have it between the eyes, and to paraphrase, He basically said "What's wrong with you? You ARE looking at Him." John 14:9.
No! Jesus is not "a god" or another god, but rather a literal extension of God the Father Himself.

Angels do not have Eternal Life, but rather only eternal existence, pending this one requirement, that they serve Him continually, night and day, every living moment of their being. Therefore, because satan and the 1/3 of the angels chose to think and desire that which was apart from God's design and purpose for them, they were "cast out" of Heaven and onto the earth, never to ever have the opportunity for repentance or forgiveness by God.

So, if you will, to use an analogy, the angels to God, are similiar for His purpose, as we design and create "robots" for our use.
God has no love towards the angels, but to His Son Jesus and all human life, He does- John 3:16. Therefore, before the foundation of the world, He "brought forth" out of Himself, the means of His Own Sacrifice for us, that we might repent towards God, and return to Him through faith in Jesus, who is the extension of God the Father Himself, in the flesh.

 

[Earburner]

Justbyfaith is saying that Jesus is the “God” referred to at Hebrews 1:8, is that true?

No. The weight of the evidence indicates that it is Jehovah. According to the New World Translation, Hebrews 1:8 says: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in Jehovah the Almighty God.

However, believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

With good reason, therefore, the New World Translation and a number of other translations render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” (See An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible.) This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is.

Does the fact that Jesus is said to be our everlasting father, make him Jehovah God our creator?

No see our everlasting father was suppose to be Adam that God created and put in Eden, but he failed us. He only brought death to us.
To unite mankind as one, Jehovah God provides for us a new father in the righteous new world. Adam the first man was the father he provided back there in the garden of Eden. But that father brought death upon all of us his children by not staying perfect and entitled to life. He broke his Creator’s command and law. So Adam proved to be a death-giver, not a life-giver for us. He died because of his sin. All the generations of his offspring have died one after the other, and we are dying. So Adam did not become our everlasting father. The one whom our Creator provides is his own living Son, Jesus Christ, who died as a perfect man for us but who now lives as an immortal spirit in his original heavenly home. “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor. 15:45, NW) On earth Jesus Christ was a Jew by nationality, and the Jews were separated from the other nations by their God-given law. But Jesus fulfilled the purpose of that law. By dying as a sacrifice, not for Jews only but for all mankind, he took away the division between Jew and every other nation. He made it possible for people of all nations to become Christians and become one flock in the united worship of the one God. So Jesus isn't the creator because he is our everlasting father. The Father and God of Jesus simply used his Only Begotten Son in order to buy back mankind.

In the coming new world Jesus will become the immortal father of all mankind to give them perfect human life on a paradise earth. Jehovah’s own prophecy says: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end.” (Isa. 9:6, 7, AS) By being born as a perfect human and sacrificing his human life as a High Priest he heals the breach between us and our Creator. Just as all mankind are now one flesh and family because of coming from the first man Adam, so all rescued mankind will become one in the new world because of becoming children of the Governor and Prince of Peace, the “Everlasting Father.” His own Father is God the Creator. Through Jesus, therefore, all saved mankind will have one Grand Father or Great Father, Jehovah.

To be brief, of course Jesus is everything that you are saying. No one can see God the Father! HE is always the Eternal Spirit of who God is.
But so that we can know Him, and have a visual identity of the fulness of the Godhead, He brought forth out of himself, the extension of Himself, and allowed Himself to BE SEEN, through the physical (now immortal) person of Jesus Christ, who shall forever remain so!

In the new heavens and the new earth, and nothing short of it, it will be Jesus that we shall look upon, for He is the EXPESS IMAGE (duplication) of God the Father, of whom no man can see. Jesus is that Mediator, being both God and man, by which we can see God the Father.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

To be brief, of course Jesus is everything that you are saying. No one can see God the Father! HE is always the Eternal Spirit of who God is.
But so that we can know Him, and have a visual identity of the fulness of the Godhead, He brought forth out of himself, the extension of Himself, and allowed Himself to BE SEEN, through the physical (now immortal) person of Jesus Christ, who shall forever remain so!

In the new heavens and the new earth, and nothing short of it, it will be Jesus that we shall look upon, for He is the EXPESS IMAGE (duplication) of God the Father, of whom no man can see. Jesus is that Mediator, being both God and man, by which we can see God the Father.

I choose to believe Scripture that says Jesus is the firstborn of creation(Colossians 1:15) and Jesus is the beginning of creation by God(Revelation 3:14). These two show us from scripture that Jesus is a part of creation. This statement you made: "He brought forth out of himself an extension of himself," where is that written in Scripture. I've never seen this written in Scripture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Thank you for your earnest and thorough research in your recent replies, and to much of what you say I do agree. However, my stand is about the simple understanding, that the created angels of God were not "brought forth" from out of God, as was Jesus.

In His situation, He is the ONLY one, prior to ALL creation, who is the express image of God the Father Himself, for the sole manifestation to ALL, of Who and what God the Father is Himself.

When Phillip questioned Jesus about seeing God the Father, Jesus let him have it between the eyes, and to paraphrase, He basically said "What's wrong with you? You ARE looking at Him." John 14:9.
No! Jesus is not "a god" or another god, but rather a literal extension of God the Father Himself.

Angels do not have Eternal Life, but rather only eternal existence, pending this one requirement, that they serve Him continually, night and day, every living moment of their being. Therefore, because satan and the 1/3 of the angels chose to think and desire that which was apart from God's design and purpose for them, they were "cast out" of Heaven and onto the earth, never to ever have the opportunity for repentance or forgiveness by God.

So, if you will, to use an analogy, the angels to God, are similiar for His purpose, as we design and create "robots" for our use.
God has no love towards the angels, but to His Son Jesus and all human life, He does- John 3:16. Therefore, before the foundation of the world, He "brought forth" out of Himself, the means of His Own Sacrifice for us, that we might repent towards God, and return to Him through faith in Jesus, who is the extension of God the Father Himself, in the flesh.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, you are completely wrong for saying God doesn't love the Angels. The True God Jehovah is love. Everything he does is motivated by love. He brought other life into existence because he loved life so much he wanted to share life with others. That includes Angels. God wants Angels to serve him because of the love they have for him, not because they're mindless robots doing what they're programmed to do. You honestly don't believe God has no love for the Angels. Since it was one of the Angels that became Satan according to you this Angel had good reason to rebel, God never loved this Angel right, I mean according to you that is. It's obvious that God created Angels with freewill otherwise how would the Angel who became Satan have been able to choose to rebel against God. Unless you're saying God programmed this Angel to rebel. Is that what you're saying? If God created them with freewill, why would he, if as you say he never loved the Angels. What would they need freewill for if God never loved them as you say. You're wrong, God does love the Angels. He loves all his creation because The True God Jehovah is love.

 

[Earburner]

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, you are completely wrong for saying God doesn't love the Angels. The True God Jehovah is love. Everything he does is motivated by love. He brought other life into existence because he loved life so much he wanted to share life with others. That includes Angels. God wants Angels to serve him because of the love they have for him, not because they're mindless robots doing what they're programmed to do. You honestly don't believe God has no love for the Angels. Since it was one of the Angels that became Satan according to you this Angel had good reason to rebel, God never loved this Angel right, I mean according to you that is. It's obvious that God created Angels with freewill otherwise how would the Angel who became Satan have been able to choose to rebel against God. Unless you're saying God programmed this Angel to rebel. Is that what you're saying? If God created them with freewill, why would he, if as you say he never loved the Angels. What would they need freewill for if God never loved them as you say. You're wrong, God does love the Angels. He loves all his creation because The True God Jehovah is love.

Angels are "ministering spirits", which were created for the sole purpose of the function they were specifically designed for by God.
They only have eternal existence, as long as they don't malfunction. If they malfunction, they are rejected and destined to destruction, WITHOUT FORGIVENESS from God, ever!

Now, since God is Love, and love forgives, why then does satan and the 1/3 NOT HAVE His forgiveness?
Answer: They are NOT loved by God, because they of themselves, are NOT capable of loving or receiving His Love!! To them it is an oddity that they desire to look into, but don't understand it!

1 Peter 1[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[justbyfaith]

Justbyfaith is saying that Jesus is the “God” referred to at Hebrews 1:8, is that true?

No. The weight of the evidence indicates that it is Jehovah. According to the New World Translation, Hebrews 1:8 says: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in Jehovah the Almighty God.

However, believers in the Trinity prefer the Authorized Version, or King James Version, which renders Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” Thus, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is this not correct?

First, note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

With good reason, therefore, the New World Translation and a number of other translations render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” (See An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible.) This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is.

Does the fact that Jesus is said to be our everlasting father, make him Jehovah God our creator?

No see our everlasting father was suppose to be Adam that God created and put in Eden, but he failed us. He only brought death to us.
To unite mankind as one, Jehovah God provides for us a new father in the righteous new world. Adam the first man was the father he provided back there in the garden of Eden. But that father brought death upon all of us his children by not staying perfect and entitled to life. He broke his Creator’s command and law. So Adam proved to be a death-giver, not a life-giver for us. He died because of his sin. All the generations of his offspring have died one after the other, and we are dying. So Adam did not become our everlasting father. The one whom our Creator provides is his own living Son, Jesus Christ, who died as a perfect man for us but who now lives as an immortal spirit in his original heavenly home. “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor. 15:45, NW) On earth Jesus Christ was a Jew by nationality, and the Jews were separated from the other nations by their God-given law. But Jesus fulfilled the purpose of that law. By dying as a sacrifice, not for Jews only but for all mankind, he took away the division between Jew and every other nation. He made it possible for people of all nations to become Christians and become one flock in the united worship of the one God. So Jesus isn't the creator because he is our everlasting father. The Father and God of Jesus simply used his Only Begotten Son in order to buy back mankind.

In the coming new world Jesus will become the immortal father of all mankind to give them perfect human life on a paradise earth. Jehovah’s own prophecy says: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end.” (Isa. 9:6, 7, AS) By being born as a perfect human and sacrificing his human life as a High Priest he heals the breach between us and our Creator. Just as all mankind are now one flesh and family because of coming from the first man Adam, so all rescued mankind will become one in the new world because of becoming children of the Governor and Prince of Peace, the “Everlasting Father.” His own Father is God the Creator. Through Jesus, therefore, all saved mankind will have one Grand Father or Great Father, Jehovah.

In order to keep the Jehovah's Witness doctrine, you obviously have to change scripture so that it fits your view.

 

[justbyfaith]

I choose to believe Scripture that says Jesus is the firstborn of creation(Colossians 1:15)

Gen 1:1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2, And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3, And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Even as the firstborn of all creation, Jesus turns out to be Jehovah God.

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

 

[Earburner]

. This statement you made: "He brought forth out of himself an extension of himself," where is that written in Scripture. I've never seen this written in Scripture.

When it comes to comprehendinng God's truth,
Scripture is not entirely interpreted by our analytical human mind, but also by the Holy Spirit of God who shows us God's thoughts through His words. John 16:13 Isaiah 55:8-9

Merriam Webster Dictionary:
Begotten- brought into existence by or as if by a parent.
First Known Use of begotten
Adjective
14th century, in the meaning defined above

 

[Earburner]

Gen 1:1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2, And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3, And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Even as the firstborn of all creation, Jesus turns out to be Jehovah God.

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

So then, "before the foundation of the world" , aka " the Creation", the question remains: did
1: God make "a god", or did
2. God bring forth (duplicate) Himself, Who is God, for the purpose of expressing the image of His person through the flesh/veil of Jesus,

Hebrews 1[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I perceive and believe the latter (2.) to be true.
Hence the words of Jesus:
John 14[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Angels are "ministering spirits", which were created for the sole purpose of the function they were specifically designed for by God.
They only have eternal existence, as long as they don't malfunction. If they malfunction, they are rejected and destined to destruction, WITHOUT FORGIVENESS from God, ever!

Now, since God is Love, and love forgives, why then does satan and the 1/3 NOT HAVE His forgiveness?
Answer: They are NOT loved by God, because they of themselves, are NOT capable of loving or receiving His Love!! To them it is an oddity that they desire to look into, but don't understand it!

1 Peter 1[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Love is not new. After all, what moved Jehovah to begin creating? It was not that he was lonely and needed companionship. Jehovah is complete and self-contained, lacking nothing that someone else might supply. But his love, an active quality, naturally moved him to want to share the joys of life with intelligent creatures who could appreciate such a gift. “The beginning of the creation by God” was his only-begotten Son. (Revelation 3:14) Then Jehovah used this Master Worker to bring all other things into existence, starting with the angels. (Job 38:4, 7; Colossians 1:16) Blessed with freedom, intelligence, and feelings, these mighty spirits had the opportunity to form loving attachments of their own—with one another and, above all, with Jehovah God. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Thus, they loved because they were loved first.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Gen 1:1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2, And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3, And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

1Jo 1:5, This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Even as the firstborn of all creation, Jesus turns out to be Jehovah God.

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Actually he isn't, but I don't expect someone who denies Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God to believe the truth. You and others like you who continue to deny Jesus is the Christ The Son of God will remain lost until you choose to believe the truth if you actually do choose to believe the truth that is.

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually he isn't, but I don't expect someone who denies Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God to believe the truth. You and others like you who continue to deny Jesus is the Christ The Son of God will remain lost until you choose to believe the truth if you actually do choose to believe the truth that is.

How do you figure that I do that?

I acknowledge Christ's Deity; something that you deny: which is also an essential for salvation (John 8:24; John 8:58-59; John 10:31-33; Exodus 3:14).

In the above verses, the Pharisees and scribes understood that Jesus was claiming to be God (and that if we don't believe that He is the great I AM, we will die in our sins). But people of your ilk don't have the understanding to even realize that.

btw, if you don't give Jesus His rightful name of the everlasting Father, then you are the one who is denying that Jesus is the son that was given. Isaiah 9:6.

But I know that you will find a way to explain away even that verse in order that you might remain in darkness concerning this matter.

I say these things out of care and love for you; although you have condemned me in your mind and Jesus says not to do that (Luke 6:37). I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to see the truth.

 

[Earburner]

Love is not new. After all, what moved Jehovah to begin creating? It was not that he was lonely and needed companionship. Jehovah is complete and self-contained, lacking nothing that someone else might supply. But his love, an active quality, naturally moved him to want to share the joys of life with intelligent creatures who could appreciate such a gift. “The beginning of the creation by God” was his only-begotten Son. (Revelation 3:14) Then Jehovah used this Master Worker to bring all other things into existence, starting with the angels. (Job 38:4, 7; Colossians 1:16) Blessed with freedom, intelligence, and feelings, these mighty spirits had the opportunity to form loving attachments of their own—with one another and, above all, with Jehovah God. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Thus, they loved because they were loved first.

KJV- Rev. 4
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

NWT- Rev. 4
8. As for the four living creatures, each one of them had six wings; they were full of eyes all around and underneath.o And continuously, day and night, they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah*p God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”
> What else do the four beasts/living creatures perform?
Ans. Nothing else.
Is that something that you see yourself doing, or would you agree that it is better to leave it with the angels to do?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

How do you figure that I do that?

I acknowledge Christ's Deity; something that you deny: which is also an essential for salvation (John 8:24; John 8:58-59; John 10:31-33; Exodus 3:14).

In the above verses, the Pharisees and scribes understood that Jesus was claiming to be God (and that if we don't believe that He is the great I AM, we will die in our sins). But people of your ilk don't have the understanding to even realize that.

btw, if you don't give Jesus His rightful name of the everlasting Father, then you are the one who is denying that Jesus is the son that was given. Isaiah 9:6.

But I know that you will find a way to explain away even that verse in order that you might remain in darkness concerning this matter.

I say these things out of care and love for you; although you have condemned me in your mind and Jesus says not to do that (Luke 6:37). I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to see the truth.

I understand you truly believe the things you say are true and scriptural. However take what you said concerning the Pharisees and Scribes. Regarding the Pharisees as a class or organization Jesus let's us know their organization or class belonged to Satan, that they were Satan disciples or that Satan was their Father. This is the class of people or organization you listen to. Jesus never claimed to be God he always said he was the Son of God or God's Son and because he said things like this the Pharisees were saying he was making himself equal to God and were going to stone him, but Jesus only said he was the Son of God. The Pharisees believed Jesus was saying that he was God yes, but the Pharisees were saying a lot of things about Jesus that wasn't true, they even said that he was breaking the Sabbath too but that wasn't true either. I find it very interesting that the people Jesus said was Satan disciples are the ones you listen to and believe.

Also when writing John 8:58, the apostle was not quoting from the Greek Septuagint Version, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, Egypt, before the birth of Christ. Let anyone who reads Greek compare John 8:58 in Greek and Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint, and he will find that the Septuagint reading of Exodus 3:14 does not use the expression Egó eimí for God’s name, when God says to Moses: “I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Greek Septuagint uses the expression ho Ōn, which means “The Being,” or, “The One who is.” This fact is clearly presented to us in Bagster’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING [ho Ōn]; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING [ho Ōn] has sent me to you.” According to Charles Thomson’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, Exodus 3:14 reads: “God spoke to Moses saying, I am The I Am [ho Ōn]. Moreover he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, The I Am [ho Ōn] hath sent me to you.”* Thus this comparison of the two Greek texts, that of the Septuagint and that of John 8:58, removes all basis for trinitarians to argue that Jesus, in John 8:58, was trying to fit Exodus 3:14 to himself, as if he was Jehovah God.

For you to say that I will find a way to explain away things, well if you're saying I won't be brainwashed into believing a lie when I can see for myself that you believe what Jesus enemies said was true therefore not believing Jesus, then yeah go ahead and believe I'm explaining away things. I know the Pharisees and Scribes were Jesus enemies and were constantly believing something he didn't say or do, but it's them you believe not Jesus. That's very interesting isn't it. I know you will try your best to explain away that truthful fact but the scriptures are not changing for you. Jesus said the Pharisees were Satan disciples and they are. So you go ahead and believe Jesus enemies I won't be brainwashed into taking Jesus enemies side like you.