So you are fine if I don't like you?
Even when I demonstrate Christian love.
If you need help, I'll be there for you, but I would MUCH rather be somewhere else.
That kind of love?
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The Limited Aspect of Christian Love - "I love you, but I don't like you."
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Even when I demonstrate Christian love.
If you need help, I'll be there for you, but I would MUCH rather be somewhere else.
That kind of love?
/
Yes. 'Like' is fleeting. Love will feed me a meal when Im homeless.
Both are good. But loving action is way more important.
By freeing yourself of the need to like everyone, you get to focus on doing practical and helpful actions to all whether you feel like you like them or not. Sure, this means youll end up liking more people as youll be treating them better. But your actions don't depend on how you feel that day. That's the benefit of love regardless of like. Of course its good to like people, but thats not always reasonable. Everyone isn't likable.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Part 4:
We went home and I immediately shared this same decision with my younger brother who was a church elder for 20 years. I also shared it with a younger man I have coffee with every week. And I also shared on the phone with two strong Christian mothers. And I watched the 2 faces when I hit them with my processing of part 3. The facial impacts were obvious on the two males. Who then proceeded to justify holding their course, but also justifying the holding of the babies. I told them, I understand and I know mine will be a minority decision. But I did qualify that by saying this is my position this time, and in this case. I am not saying it would apply to any other homosexual case,
because they are not family. When I told the last mother on the phone of my story she immediately blurted out; "Where did your granddaughter ever come up with such a mature question?" I admitted I had no idea, and we then discussed this divisive church problem for another hour before hanging up. That night I laid awake still wrestling with the impact of 'that question'. Finally sleep came....until later that night when I awoke to that burning question, again. "I sought the Lord and He answered."Psa 34:4 He said; "That question came, from the 'heart' of a BASTARD." I was immediately shocked and admittedly a 'little' bit mad that God called my granddaughter that 'cuss-word name'. Then, He spoke again and said; "Your granddaughter was born out of wedlock." I was awed, that was 'the truth'.
I spent time that night processing how 'her heart' had been formed, affected, defected with the words of kids (secular or church), TV and whatever else she faced growing up in this world. The next morning I shared with my wife what I believe was a 'spoken word' from God confirming the decision I had made. I told her I was going to share 'that word' with the four I had told the story to first. Karen said are you going to call her 'that'? I said; "GOD DID!" (IMO). She said you need to ask her if you can. So I called her immediately and asked. There was just a hint of hesitation, and I wondered what is her heart going to say? For out of the heart the mouth speaks. She gave a yes, but her voice betrayed a little bit of I'm giving you the answer I know you want to hear. But that was good enough for me, and I headed to the coffee shop trying to imagine the text I was going to send to the mother. I parked at Patrick Dugan's coffee shop and texted. All of a sudden I hear a knock on my window startling me a little bit. Who was it? It was my granddaughter and a co worker coming for coffee. I told her I was finishing a text to Jewel and would be in shortly. When I did enter, her and the coworker had ordered and were waiting and the line was long with several coming in just before I hit the door. So I went over to talk to the girls. My Granddaughter asked to step outside where it was quieter and she shared a heart wrenching story from her fifth grade year in school. An event which she had never shared with anyone before and it plagued her. She was able to share this emotional event from the past which was buried alive, just exactly where the devil keeps his chains of authority....'in the dark'. She brought that to the light and she said her heart felt so much better.
QUESTION FOUR:
This whole story has two possibilities; A co-incidence....or a GOD-incidence. I'm believing it was God. But we ALL have our own decisions to make, and live with, until the day that HE will let us ALL know. Because on that day we will know, even as He has known us.
We went home and I immediately shared this same decision with my younger brother who was a church elder for 20 years. I also shared it with a younger man I have coffee with every week. And I also shared on the phone with two strong Christian mothers. And I watched the 2 faces when I hit them with my processing of part 3. The facial impacts were obvious on the two males. Who then proceeded to justify holding their course, but also justifying the holding of the babies. I told them, I understand and I know mine will be a minority decision. But I did qualify that by saying this is my position this time, and in this case. I am not saying it would apply to any other homosexual case,
because they are not family. When I told the last mother on the phone of my story she immediately blurted out; "Where did your granddaughter ever come up with such a mature question?" I admitted I had no idea, and we then discussed this divisive church problem for another hour before hanging up. That night I laid awake still wrestling with the impact of 'that question'. Finally sleep came....until later that night when I awoke to that burning question, again. "I sought the Lord and He answered."Psa 34:4 He said; "That question came, from the 'heart' of a BASTARD." I was immediately shocked and admittedly a 'little' bit mad that God called my granddaughter that 'cuss-word name'. Then, He spoke again and said; "Your granddaughter was born out of wedlock." I was awed, that was 'the truth'.
I spent time that night processing how 'her heart' had been formed, affected, defected with the words of kids (secular or church), TV and whatever else she faced growing up in this world. The next morning I shared with my wife what I believe was a 'spoken word' from God confirming the decision I had made. I told her I was going to share 'that word' with the four I had told the story to first. Karen said are you going to call her 'that'? I said; "GOD DID!" (IMO). She said you need to ask her if you can. So I called her immediately and asked. There was just a hint of hesitation, and I wondered what is her heart going to say? For out of the heart the mouth speaks. She gave a yes, but her voice betrayed a little bit of I'm giving you the answer I know you want to hear. But that was good enough for me, and I headed to the coffee shop trying to imagine the text I was going to send to the mother. I parked at Patrick Dugan's coffee shop and texted. All of a sudden I hear a knock on my window startling me a little bit. Who was it? It was my granddaughter and a co worker coming for coffee. I told her I was finishing a text to Jewel and would be in shortly. When I did enter, her and the coworker had ordered and were waiting and the line was long with several coming in just before I hit the door. So I went over to talk to the girls. My Granddaughter asked to step outside where it was quieter and she shared a heart wrenching story from her fifth grade year in school. An event which she had never shared with anyone before and it plagued her. She was able to share this emotional event from the past which was buried alive, just exactly where the devil keeps his chains of authority....'in the dark'. She brought that to the light and she said her heart felt so much better.
QUESTION FOUR:
This whole story has two possibilities; A co-incidence....or a GOD-incidence. I'm believing it was God. But we ALL have our own decisions to make, and live with, until the day that HE will let us ALL know. Because on that day we will know, even as He has known us.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
First, I'm going to side-step the question with a question: Are G1 and G2 believers?
If the answer is "no", then 1 Corinthians 5:12 applies: 12 For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? If they are not believers, will ceasing from this one sin save them?
If the answer is "yes, they are believers", then I'm sure they already know what Leviticus says. But as a guideline, "Love the sinner but not the sin" seems to work as well as anything. But Jesus will know when we're trying to BS Him.
My wife would disagree. For me, the question may become quite real in the not-so-distant future. The Methodist church will split soon due to this issue, and my church will likely go with the liberal side, something that would have astonished me 20 years ago. My duties include providing A/V technical support for all church functions, so I may be asked to support gay weddings in the near future.
Christ permitting, I will stand beside you on that day. Moral decisions are NOT always cut-and-dry, and sometimes you have to do what you think is right and own the consequences.
I'm curious. Out-of-wedlock births are quite common now and no longer carry the stigma they did years ago. (Except maybe within the church? I hope not.) You didn't say directly if your granddaughter's experience was related to her status of being "illegitimate" (i.e. her parents' sin), but I can see why she might empathize with a child who was rejected for reasons over which he/she had no control.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)
I'll say it again - sometimes you have to do what you think is right and own the consequences. Jesus knows your heart, and He knows why you chose as you chose.
LOL
Good point.
My point, which you seem to agree with, is that "like" above and beyond "love" is optimal.
Matthew 9:36 NIV
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them,
because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
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That's good. I agree.
This is a happy ending. Even though it's not over.
Sadly, the alternative was to declare war on flesh and blood.
How many in the church have chosen that route?
Should we not be about the business of declaring peace? (no war)
"War is hell.", as the saying goes.
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Hillsage
Well-Known Member
That is a good first question. But one I really can't say I know, for sure. His mom and dad are.
I agree with your Corinthian verse, that's not one brought up very much.
Our Methodist church just went through one and the split was devastating. It was the biggest church building in our town of 30,000 and it did go liberal. They've lost so many 'old money' members, that there's a huge funding issue.
I look forward to that day then.
No, I couldn't say it was my granddaughter's fault, or sin. I don't think it would be any babies fault. I think that's on their birth parents to have committed the sin. Her dad never married my daughter. He actually got a wrestling scholarship to another college and got a girl pregnant there while supposedly still going with our daughter who was still pregnant. Our small charismatic church handled her/our situation graciously.I agree.
I agree.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
It was a great story. One caveat with scripture though. We live in a Mennonite community and they regularly practice 'churching' or 'shunning' some brethren. They do so saying it is because some sins are dealt with "outside the camp" as in the days of Moses. It is the same 1Cor 5 scripture LAMBANO used with the question "Are the 2 homosexuals saved?" If they aren't saved you walk along side them until they are saved (I guess). But then, they are to quit the sin. If they don't then you don't even eat with them. In the video Barrett Jones became a believer...maybe even tongues speaking before his divorce. And the church didn't follow this scriptural directive.
1CO 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler - not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
The 'bold' wasn't me, it was in the NAS bible. Not sure why? Wasn't a direct OT quote.
I asked @Lambano this question. Might be good for you to consider as well.
"I wonder how this story in the video may have differed if God had led this man to a liberal church. ???
He complied with the wishes of this conservative church and benefited. I wonder how the outcome may have differed."
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
If "God had led this man to a liberal church" then I think the plan of God for this man would have turned out just like God intended.
He did comply, but he was mightily blessed with supernatural manifestations, which sure helped in 'that department'.
Yes, and it wasn't the "single issue" situation that it appeared initially.If "God had led this man to a liberal church" then I think the plan of God for this man would have turned out just like God intended.
He did comply, but he was mightily blessed with supernatural manifestations, which sure helped in 'that department'.
Homosexual, yes. But a bad marriage, substance abuse and witchcraft were part of the picture as well.
So, more than one department, I would say. And YES it helped! - LOL
/
Im being challenged on some things and I think you may be on to something about people's Christian love being limited.
For example, in Titus 2, the love that wives are learning is phileo---a tender affectionate love, not just sacrificial love. So when it comes to marriage I definitely think we should both love and like our spouses.
For example, in Titus 2, the love that wives are learning is phileo---a tender affectionate love, not just sacrificial love. So when it comes to marriage I definitely think we should both love and like our spouses.
That's good.
Not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but I got the idea for this topic from the lyrics in a song by Wayne Watson.
"I want to be the kind of friend that Jesus would call (if he had a telephone)
at the end of the day, just to talk about nothin'. (1:19)
Point being, you don't call someone to talk about nothin' unless you REALLY like them.
This is BEYOND love. Above and beyond Christian duty.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Thank you, Wynona; I'd never noticed that before. And it reminds me of a co-worker who told us he couldn't work overtime that evening because "I have to go home and make friends with my wife".
"Phileo" is the friendship-love, the one that the city of Philadelphia is mis-named after. In that John 21:15-22 vignette that's usually good for a post-Easter sermon every three years, the one in which Jesus asks Peter, "Simon Johnson, do you love me sacrificially (agape)", and Peter replies, "Lord, you know I like (phileo) you", Jesus finally asks Peter in verse 17, "Simon, do you like (phileo) me?"
I guess sometimes liking Jesus like a friend is enough.
And that reminds me of my first apartment in Florida, and waking up to a nearby church playing What a Friend We Have in Jesus on the carillon one Sunday morning.
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