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the "little horn" is NOT "the Antichrist".

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by truthsearcher, Jun 22, 2007.

  1. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (truthsearcher;12406)
    The term "abomination of desolation" was the term used quite often by Daniel the prophet in his description of the "ten-horned beast" or, "man of sin", "son of perdition". So then, by referring us to the writings of Daniel, it stands to reason that the "abomination of desolation" of which Christ spoke in Matt.24:15, is that of the end-time "beast".....And if "the end-time beast", then obviously Jesus meant, "When ye (whom are living at the end of the age) see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...."Remember that Jesus was addressing the question, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
    What are you doing to Jesus' words? He said to His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see Daniel's abomination of desolation. So if THEY saw Daniel's abomination of desolation, then you are wrong in assuming that Daniel was speaking of some future to us end-time beast! Matthew and Daniel agree! They are both speaking of the end times that occurred in AD 70! Remember, Jesus was addressing the question, "What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the AGE!!!!! not world!!!!JesusReigns
     
  2. RND

    RND New Member

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    "What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the AGE!!!!! not world!!!!
    Matthew 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?Um, I think Matthew 24 and 25 (which is an extension of Matthew 24) clearly points to the coming destruction of the earthly temple (70 A.D.) and the future coming of the "end of the world."
     
  3. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (RND;12793)
    Matthew 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?Um, I think Matthew 24 and 25 (which is an extension of Matthew 24) clearly points to the coming destruction of the earthly temple (70 A.D.) and the future coming of the "end of the world."
    The word is aion, meaning age not world (kosmos). The question was prompted not by Jesus saying something about the end of the "world" but His statements about the desolation of the temple and His judgment upon that generation of Jews who were clearly pronounced by Him guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. That is the context.Where is the end of the world taught in Matthew 24 and 25 (or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter)?JesusReigns(NOW)
     
  4. truthsearcher

    truthsearcher New Member

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    What are you doing to Jesus' words? He said to His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see Daniel's abomination of desolation. So if THEY saw Daniel's abomination of desolation, then you are wrong in assuming that Daniel was speaking of some future to us end-time beast! Matthew and Daniel agree! They are both speaking of the end times that occurred in AD 70! Remember, Jesus was addressing the question, "What shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the AGE!!!!! not world!!!!JesusReigns
    JR,As I stated in another post addressed to you, and of which you must have overlooked, the abomination of desolation spoken in both Matthew and Luke cannot be referring to 70 AD, because Jesus said in Luke 21:22 in reference to the AOB, "For these be the days of vengeance, that "ALL THINGS" which are written may be fulfilled." So, clearly He's speaking of the end of days.Jesus (in linen) is speaking of that same abomination of desolation (end-time beast) in Dan.12:7, for notice: "and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (the Christian Europeans), "all these things shall be finished."
     
  5. RND

    RND New Member

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    (JesusReigns;12796)
    The word is aion, meaning age not world (kosmos). The question was prompted not by Jesus saying something about the end of the "world" but His statements about the desolation of the temple and His judgment upon that generation of Jews who were clearly pronounced by Him guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth. That is the context.Where is the end of the world taught in Matthew 24 and 25 (or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter)?JesusReigns(NOW)
    According to the Strong's Concordance #165, aion can mean properly, "an age" or by extension "perpetuity (also past)", by implication, i.e. implied "the world", or even specifically "the (Jewish) Messianic period (present or future)".To suggest the word 'aion' only means one thing, in this case "an age" is ignoring how the word is used in other parts of scripture, which is disingenuous at best, purposeful error at the worst.There can be no escaping the specific 'context' of the word or 'meaning' of it's use when the entirety of both Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 are taken into context. The implication in Matthew 24, spoken by Jesus Himself, is that when Jesus returns, it will just as it was in the days of Noah, and those 'unprepared' will be taken, not 'left behind'. Matthew 24:36-42
     
  6. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    JR,As I stated in another post addressed to you, and of which you must have overlooked, the abomination of desolation spoken in both Matthew and Luke cannot be referring to 70 AD, because Jesus said in Luke 21:22 in reference to the AOB, "For these be the days of vengeance, that "ALL THINGS" which are written may be fulfilled." So, clearly He's speaking of the end of days.Jesus (in linen) is speaking of that same abomination of desolation (end-time beast) in Dan.12:7, for notice: "and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (the Christian Europeans), "all these things shall be finished."
    truthsearcher: If Jesus said "THESE be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled," than that is exactly what He meant. What were the things written when Jesus spoke--the OT prophets and writings! Jesus clearly said to His original disciples who asked those questions and who were standing right there with Him--"But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near" (Lk 21:20). He makes a definite connection between that desolation and the days of vengeance--they are contemporaneous. In other words, the desolation which Jesus told His disciples right there with Him THEY would see ARE the days of vengeance! ALL that was written was fulfilled at the desolation of AD 70. That is what Jesus said! Peter later stated--"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). This is what was spoken of by the writer of Hebrews when he explained that the Old Covenant was growing old and becoming obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb. 8). Who are the holy people? When was their power broken? The Jewish leaders had great power even under the Roman rule. They ruled over the people and made rules and regulations which made life difficult for the people under them. They sought to silence Jesus and His followers because their teachings detracted from their power over the people. They killed the Lord of glory and killed the prophets and apostles sent to them just as Jesus predicted they would in Matthew 23. But the people had seen a great light and many were saved from its hold on them by the light of gospel of the New Covenant. The power of that obsolete system was finally and forever broken when the temple and city were destroyed in AD 70. JesusReigns
     
  7. truthsearcher

    truthsearcher New Member

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    truthsearcher: If Jesus said "THESE be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled," than that is exactly what He meant. What were the things written when Jesus spoke--the OT prophets and writings! Jesus clearly said to His original disciples who asked those questions and who were standing right there with Him--"But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near" (Lk 21:20). He makes a definite connection between that desolation and the days of vengeance--they are contemporaneous. In other words, the desolation which Jesus told His disciples right there with Him THEY would see ARE the days of vengeance! ALL that was written was fulfilled at the desolation of AD 70. That is what Jesus said! Peter later stated--"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). This is what was spoken of by the writer of Hebrews when he explained that the Old Covenant was growing old and becoming obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb. 8). Who are the holy people? When was their power broken? The Jewish leaders had great power even under the Roman rule. They ruled over the people and made rules and regulations which made life difficult for the people under them. They sought to silence Jesus and His followers because their teachings detracted from their power over the people. They killed the Lord of glory and killed the prophets and apostles sent to them just as Jesus predicted they would in Matthew 23. But the people had seen a great light and many were saved from its hold on them by the light of gospel of the New Covenant. The power of that obsolete system was finally and forever broken when the temple and city were destroyed in AD 70. JesusReigns
    Whom do you say "the holy people" are in Dan.12:7? And, would you point out the scriptures that you believe relates to the end-times of which we are living today? Do you even believe that we are living in the end times?! It appears as though you believe all end-time scriptures are in reference to 70 AD!
     
  8. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (RND;12798)
    According to the Strong's Concordance #165, aion can mean properly, "an age" or by extension "perpetuity (also past)", by implication, i.e. implied "the world", or even specifically "the (Jewish) Messianic period (present or future)".To suggest the word 'aion' only means one thing, in this case "an age" is ignoring how the word is used in other parts of scripture, which is disingenuous at best, purposeful error at the worst.There can be no escaping the specific 'context' of the word or 'meaning' of it's use when the entirety of both Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 are taken into context. The implication in Matthew 24, spoken by Jesus Himself, is that when Jesus returns, it will just as it was in the days of Noah, and those 'unprepared' will be taken, not 'left behind'. Matthew 24:36-42
    RND: First of all, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is NOT a Hebrew or Greek Dictionary. The entries there should not be considered as authoritative. However, since you quoted Strong's, notice what it says about the translation "world." It states that it is arrived at through IMPLICATION, i.e., IMPLIED. That is hardly a strong case for understanding aion as "world" instead of "age," the much more prominent translation. Scholars do not take Strong's Concordance as authoritative. Etymologically, it is at best merely a guide. The value of Strong's is not its word definitions but its numbering system and cross-referencing.A much more accurate source which I use is "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament" (Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich). Matthew 24:3 is placed under the heading "a segment of time, age". There are only a very few obscure usages noted of aion as "world." The KJV translated many usages of aion as "world." However, more modern translators have made the following changes:Matthew 13:39-40 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)Matthew 13:49 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)MATTHEW 24:3 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)Matthew 28:20 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)See also, Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:34-35; 1 Cor. 10:11; Gal. 1:4; Eph. 1:21; Heb. 6:5; Heb. 9:26.But you are correct in stating that the context greatly narrows down the meaning. You mention the context of Matthew 24 and 25. I believe we need to go back to Matthew 23 to get the proper understanding. Jesus is dealing exclusively with the apostate, disobedient, rebellious, stiff-necked Jews of His day. He pronounces numerous woes upon them and then judges them guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth." As a result, THEIR generation will be the recipients of God's wrath. That is the very significant background for the disciples' question. The entire foundation of Jewish worship is about to be demolished (the city and the temple). The disciples saw in this the end of that age (Judaism and the Old Covenant) which formed the basis for their question concerning the end of that age not the world. This compliments and does not disagree with Paul's use of kosmos in 2 Peter 3:5-7, 10-13. The stoicheia (elements, principles, rudiments) of the kosmos were to be soon judged. This judgment is described by the figurative language of melting with fervent heat and burning up. This is no more literal than Isaiah 34:4 where God is described as coming in judgment against Edom. Were the mountains THEN literally melted with blood? Were all the host of heaven literally dissolved? Were the heavens literally rolled up as a scroll? Here, as in 2 Peter, the language is figurative--physical earthly and heavenly things are used to describe God's wrath upon a people or nation.The elements that were to soon be burned up were the basic or even false principles or traditions of men--or in the case of Judaism, the elements of the law with the observing of days and months and seasons and years.As for any similarity to Noah's day, we must remember that the world itself was not destroyed, only most of the inhabitants! The heavens and the earth remained! If we desire to see any physical and literal dimension to Peter's inspired use of "fire" we can read the works of Josephus (Wars, 6:4) to discover the horrible and immense fires that accompanied the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans. The Old Covenant world of Judaism was indeed melted with fervent heat!All of this also ties in quite nicely with Peter's words in 1 Peter 4:7--"The end of ALL things is AT HAND." If we understand what the "end of all things" entailed (i.e. the burning up of the stoicheia in 2 Peter 3), there is no need to ignore or redefine the meaning of AT HAND. The end of those things--the rudiments of the law--was indeed AT HAND when Peter wrote those words!What about Peter's New Heavens and New Earth? Doesn't this demand that the Old Heavens and Old Earth have been destroyed or removed? Yes! But not in a physical sense. Remember that the stoicheia is NOT the chemical or physical make up of the heavens and the earth but the principles or rudiments of men! They are metaphors for the Old and New Covenants. Both Peter and John expected the end of the old and the arrival of these new heavens and earth SHORTLY (cp. Rev. 1:1 with Rev. 21:1). The time was AT HAND (1 Peter 4:7). The judgment on a nation or people is described in Isaiah 13:13 with the following figurative language--"Therefore I will shake the HEAVENS, and the EARTH will move out of her place." Did this literally happen when God came in judgment against Babylon? No, of course not! For clarification, consider Hebrews 12:25-28 where the writer makes reference to Haggai 2:6--"Now this, 'Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.' Now this, 'Yet once more,' indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.'"What is the context of this shaking? The end of the world; the dissolving of the earth? No. Verse 28: "THEREFORE, since we are receiving A KINGDOM which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God . . . . "The things shaken and removed when Jesus returned to fully establish His kingdom were the stoicheia of Judaism with its many impotent shadows and types. They are replaced by the perfect, substantive antitypes found in God's Kingdom--the New Heavens and New Earth!In its CONTEXT, then, Matthew 24 is addressing the end of the AGE described above. The end of that which Jesus had just pronounced worthy of God's wrath in Matthew 23. Then follows all the personal pronouns (YOU) which make ALL of Jesus' predictions personally relevant to THOSE disciples and THAT generation (Matthew 24:34). Matthew 25 describes that new heavens and new earth--the kingdom of heaven--which was about to come! JesusReigns
     
  9. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (truthsearcher;12841)
    Whom do you say "the holy people" are in Dan.12:7? And, would you point out the scriptures that you believe relates to the end-times of which we are living today? Do you even believe that we are living in the end times?! It appears as though you believe all end-time scriptures are in reference to 70 AD!
    truthsearcher: First of all, we must set the time frame for Daniel 12. His mention of "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation" clearly coincides with Matthew 24:21 (and, I believe, Dan. 9:26). Since the events of Matthew 24 were to personally involve those disciples who were right there with Jesus (note the many uses of "YOU") and since Jesus clearly established the time (THIS generation), the "holy people" of Daniel 12:7 are people of that first-century age!Daniel 8 deals with "many days in the future" for Daniel. It is a time "when the transgressors have reached their fullness." Consider Matthew 23:32 when Jesus said to those reprobate, disobedient, apostate "Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites"--"Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt." These are the transgressors whose time Daniel was told of--It was those Jews of Jesus' day who were the transgressors of Daniel 8! They are the "holy people" of Daniel 8 who were to be destroyed, and who were destroyed in AD 70. As I have already stated, they are the same "holy people" of Daniel 12.There are no Scriptures that declare that WE are living in end times! Daniel was told to seal up the words of the prophecy until the "time of the end" (12:9). As I have already stated, that was the "time of trouble" (Dan. 12:1) and the great tribulation of Matthew 24 which occurred in THAT first-century generation (Matthew 24:34). The writer of Hebrews spoke of his time as "these last days!" (Heb. 1:1)Therefore, yes, I believe all end times scriptures refer to AD 70.Why do you think there is an end of time?JesusReigns
     
  10. RND

    RND New Member

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    RND: First of all, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is NOT a Hebrew or Greek Dictionary. The entries there should not be considered as authoritative. However, since you quoted Strong's, notice what it says about the translation "world."
    While not a Hebrew-Greek Dictionary the Strong's definitions and descriptions of word usage is nearly the same. It is a valuable resource.
    It states that it is arrived at through IMPLICATION, i.e., IMPLIED. That is hardly a strong case for understanding aion as "world" instead of "age," the much more prominent translation.
    "Implied" usage is in "relation" to context. If I said that ship is huge, it would be unlikely I would be discussing a sailboat. It's all in the context as to how the implication is understood.
    Scholars do not take Strong's Concordance as authoritative. Etymologically, it is at best merely a guide. The value of Strong's is not its word definitions but its numbering system and cross-referencing.
    Don't you mean "some scholars"?
    A much more accurate source which I use is "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament" (Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich). Matthew 24:3 is placed under the heading "a segment of time, age". There are only a very few obscure usages noted of aion as "world." The KJV translated many usages of aion as "world." However, more modern translators have made the following changes:Matthew 13:39-40 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)Matthew 13:49 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)MATTHEW 24:3 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)Matthew 28:20 WORLD (KJV) - AGE (NKJV)See also, Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:34-35; 1 Cor. 10:11; Gal. 1:4; Eph. 1:21; Heb. 6:5; Heb. 9:26.But you are correct in stating that the context greatly narrows down the meaning.
    I rest my case.
     
  11. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    JesusReigns,I see that your still trying to push your false doctrine on everyone!
     
  12. Tama

    Tama New Member

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    JesusReigns,I see that your still trying to push your false doctrine on everyone!
    Yes. It looks like JesusReigns has a mission that HAS to be accomplished succesfully, and no giving up untill then [​IMG]
     
  13. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    JesusReigns,I see that your still trying to push your false doctrine on everyone!
    MY false doctrine? Is it with me that you have an issue? Did not Jesus, and not I, clearly say the following?"YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel BEFORE the Son of Man COMES" (Mat. 10:23)."There are some standing HERE who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28)."THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (Mat. 24:34)."YOU (Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man . . . COMING in the CLOUDS of heaven" (Mat. 26:64).Who said these things, Jodycour? Did I? No. Jesus said them--is He the spreader of false doctrine? What did Jesus say?JesusReigns
     
  14. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (Tama;12863)
    Yes. It looks like JesusReigns has a mission that HAS to be accomplished succesfully, and no giving up untill then [​IMG]
    If I have any "mission," Tama, it is to get people to be honest with the words of Scripture. When Jesus plainly says "There are some standing here who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom," why is that not taken at face value?I post the very words of Jesus and am then accused of spreading false doctrine? All I have asked is for someone to respond to a simple verse by taking it in its context and proving to me that I am misunderstanding Jesus' very own words!JesusReigns
     
  15. Tama

    Tama New Member

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    (JesusReigns;12891)
    All I have asked is for someone to respond to a simple verse by taking it in its context and proving to me that I am misunderstanding Jesus' very own words!JesusReigns
    WE ALL have done since day one you started this False Doctrine deal over here. We gave you hundreds of scriptures that you obviously ignored!If you think you will have success with your 'the more they hear - the more they believe' strategy - You are wrong. The more we hear your stuff the more sickening it becomes to us (me at least) and few more people on here. I am shocked to see someone to deny ALL BIBLE just because of wrong interpretation on 2 verses...
     
  16. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (Tama;12893)
    WE ALL have done since day one you started this False Doctrine deal over here. We gave you hundreds of scriptures that you obviously ignored!If you think you will have success with your 'the more they hear - the more they believe' strategy - You are wrong. The more we hear your stuff the more sickening it becomes to us (me at least) and few more people on here. I am shocked to see someone to deny ALL BIBLE just because of wrong interpretation on 2 verses...
    Tama: What do you mean--deny ALL BIBLE? Two verses? I have stuck to only a few verses because no one will do proper Bible exegesis. If we cannot do that in simple passages, how will we ever understand the more complicated ones.Tama, what do you consider sound Bible study? Don't you think it is important to understand why a writer wrote what he wrote or why someone said what he said? Don't you think it is important to ascertain what words written to specific people meant to them? Don't you think that it is significant to understand the times during which certain Scriptures were written? That is all I was asking! Quite frankly, Tama, it seemed to me that when I brought up Matthew 10, you gave no relevance to those disciples right there with Jesus. I am interested in knowing what you think Jesus meant when He told them that they would be scourged in synagogues and be persecuted. Yes, Christians have been and will continue to be persecuted, but when have we or any other than those of that day been scourged in synagogues? Are there not things here that are for that definite point in history? I am extremely curious why everyone here is so quick to cry "false doctrine" when all I am doing is taking Jesus' words at their face value. I find these accusations absurd in the light of the charges that preterists take things too FIGURATIVELY and SYMBOLICALLY!JesusReigns
     
  17. RND

    RND New Member

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    I am extremely curious why everyone here is so quick to cry "false doctrine" when all I am doing is taking Jesus' words at their face value.
    John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.The problem I see is that an "exact description" of a conversation between Jesus and His disciples detailing their persecution can't be, by any historical measure, considered simply an "exact description" of a conversation between Jesus and His disciples. There are meanings behind those conversations, literal as well as symbolic.There are many, many meanings and thoughts behind each and every gem of each scripture verse that simply cannot be looked at as just 'literal' or just 'symbolic.' What may have been literally mentioned does not preclude that the same conversation can only be viewed 'literally' amd not 'symbolically.'By taking things in the whole of the context in which they were intended we can clearly see that while prophesied, 70A.D. cannot logically be viewed as the period in which Jesus Christ came again and resurrected the 'dead in Christ.'
    I find these accusations absurd in the light of the charges that preterists take things too FIGURATIVELY and SYMBOLICALLY!
    Funny, I've never known these to be attributes of the preterist movement, but rather just ignoring what is clearly stated by the apostles.Understanding what you believe to be true, without honestly exploring the origins of those beliefs, is a dangerous way to practice one's theology:The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
     
  18. truthsearcher

    truthsearcher New Member

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    (JesusReigns;12845)
    Daniel 8 deals with "many days in the future" for Daniel. It is a time "when the transgressors have reached their fullness." Consider Matthew 23:32 when Jesus said to those reprobate, disobedient, apostate "Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites"--"Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt." These are the transgressors whose time Daniel was told of--It was those Jews of Jesus' day who were the transgressors of Daniel 8! They are the "holy people" of Daniel 8 who were to be destroyed, and who were destroyed in AD 70. As I have already stated, they are the same "holy people" of Daniel 12.
    Nonsense....God's the author of the Scriptures, and He would NEVER refer to the Scribes and Pharisees who had His Son crucified, as "the holy people".
    There are no Scriptures that declare that WE are living in end times! Daniel was told to seal up the words of the prophecy until the "time of the end" (12:9). As I have already stated, that was the "time of trouble" (Dan. 12:1) and the great tribulation of Matthew 24 which occurred in THAT first-century Therefore, yes, I believe all end times scriptures refer to AD 70.
    Daniel was told to seal up the words of prophecy until the time of the end simply because no one would be able to understand those prophecies until the end-times after they occured. Well, guess what? These are the end-times, and Daniel's prophecies have all been fulfilled whereby we can now understand them. All that is, except for the "time of trouble" which America is to experience in the near future.
    Why do you think there is an end of time?JesusReigns
    By "end-times", I mean the period of time, or, last generation prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ. You DO believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, do you not?
     
  19. JesusReigns

    JesusReigns New Member

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    (RND;12924)
    John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.The problem I see is that an "exact description" of a conversation between Jesus and His disciples detailing their persecution can't be, by any historical measure, considered simply an "exact description" of a conversation between Jesus and His disciples. There are meanings behind those conversations, literal as well as symbolic.There are many, many meanings and thoughts behind each and every gem of each scripture verse that simply cannot be looked at as just 'literal' or just 'symbolic.' What may have been literally mentioned does not preclude that the same conversation can only be viewed 'literally' amd not 'symbolically.'By taking things in the whole of the context in which they were intended we can clearly see that while prophesied, 70A.D. cannot logically be viewed as the period in which Jesus Christ came again and resurrected the 'dead in Christ.'Funny, I've never known these to be attributes of the preterist movement, but rather just ignoring what is clearly stated by the apostles.Understanding what you believe to be true, without honestly exploring the origins of those beliefs, is a dangerous way to practice one's theology:The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
    RND: First of all, preterism did not originate with Roman Catholicism--it began with Jesus! I had never even heard of preterism when I became a preterist! Let me understand what you are saying. When Jesus told His disciples that they were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, He meant that many people were going to see it? He had no specific people in mind? When He told His disciples to get a donkey upon which He could ride into Jerusalem, He meant for other disciples in other generations to do that as well? Yes, there are meanings behind the conversations Jesus had with His disciples, but when He told THEM that THEY were going to personally experience something in THEIR lifetimes, THEY were going to personally experience those things!Do not historical events occur to specific people at specific times? While there are many wars throughout history, there is only one particular war at any given time. In other words, there will never be another WWII. There will never be another Korean War. There may be similar wars but there will never be those exact wars affecting those particular actual people and those particular battles and events! There are many similarities between wars but each war is unique!When Jesus addressed the Twelve in Matthew 10 before He sent THEM out to the lost sheep of Israel, He forewarned THEM of specific things that were to happen to THEM and He told THEM that He would COME BACK BEFORE THEY went through the cities of Israel. These were specific events happening to specific people at a specific point in time. Can we learn from them? Of course. Christians continued to be persecuted and killed but those persecutions and martyrdoms were not what Jesus had in mind at that particular point in time!Even you, as a futurist, believe that at some specific point in time Jesus will come to a specific generation of men, do you not? Many dispensationalists exclude all other generations through their belief that Jesus will come back to this generation. In the same way, Jesus had specific wars and rumors of wars in mind in Matthew 24. He told them ahead of time about specific things that were to happen to them. He told them that at some specific time in their lives they would see the abomination of desolation. He did not know the specific time (i.e. the day and the hour) but He knew the time frame--THIS generation.I understand from your statement that you are accusing me of taking my beliefs from some catholic teachings, whether knowingly or not. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The conclusions I have reached come from my own personal study. About twenty years ago now, I decided to abandon everything I had been taught and set about to study the Word with an open and uncluttered mind. As I said before, I reached the preterist understanding before I even knew there was such a thing as preterism.I am really trying to understand but I find it very difficult to grasp how anyone can read such passages as Matthew 10 and not see the glaring fact that Jesus is telling His disciples (the Twelve) about things they should expect in their lifetimes and how they should handle each situation. He clearly has those particular disciples in mind when He tells them that they personally will not finish going through the cities of Israel before He comes!That is the context. As you read this passage, do you not get that sense in some way, shape or form even though in your mind you believe that it just simply cannot be?Respectfully and truly, do we stumble over such simple things because they go against long-held beliefs? Is anything worth holding onto that does not square with God's Word? As for the resurrection--Addressing governor Felix in Acts 24, Paul said "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (verse 15). His anticipation of it was the reason he always endeavored "to have a conscience without offense toward God or men" (verse 16).In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul again anticipates something that will personally affect him. That is why he says "WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed . . . . this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." He also personally includes himself and the Thessalonians (and by extension all believers of that generation) in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he says "WE who are alive and remain until the COMING of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. . . . WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord." The comfort was in the personal nature of this resurrection--"therefore comfort one another with THESE words"JesusReigns
     
  20. RND

    RND New Member

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