I see this an insult against the Holy Spirit Who in this presentation seems rather incapable to sanctify the one born again.
The Lord's Side (Remaining neutral and non partisan)
- Thread starter Episkopos
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I know the Bible pretty good. You would do well to include Scriptures, or at least references, and not only when you are trying to prove you can, but for all your doctrine, though I know you cannot. I think this is why you do not.
You're thinking not all Christians are called to be holy?
Or is this an example of Christian "castes"?
The church is facing the same problem as black people are in the US at this time. And that is the challenge of what it means to be free. Shelby Steele calls this...the shock of freedom. We want to think of ourselves as enslaved to sin as we always were and as we think we will always be...as being oppressed so that we are permanent victims...to sin as long as we live. Nevermind that Jesus died to set us free...or that the truth sets us free. All that is not enough for us to believe in a freedom away from sin. Our lack of faith is NOT doing us any favours in this regard. We make excuses to not take up our responsibility in freedom...and excuse our bad behaviour due to outside forces that cause us to remain as we always were. A broken horse can be kept still by gently placing the reins over a tether pole without any risk that the horse will perceive it is free to gallop away. A simple tug on the reins and it is free! But freedom is fearful. When a person doesn't know what freedom is...or else can't be comfortable with it...the idea of enslavement wins the day. The horse remains where he is. And we remain as we always have been.
The black culture in America is in that same place. There is a feeling that in spite of making HUGE progress towards equality in all walks of life...with an equal opportunity or even more chances to succeed (affirmative action)...the idea of oppression is still there in the psyche. So it is with the church. We can't seem to wrap our minds around being responsible for our newfound freedom in Christ. We still think in terms of being slaves to sin. Just as the predominant black culture continues to beat the drum of victimhood in the face of a supposed "white privilege." Fear of freedom is real and a powerful hindrance to growth.
The gambit of a hypocritical black culture is to look to exploit a white hypocrisy based on white guilt. And many white people are so afraid to be labeled as racist...that they will put on a great show to support the lies that justify them. But it is hypocrisy...and another way to to be afraid of freedom. We prefer bondage...even if that bondage is to a lie. So our mutual hypocrisy keeps us all in bondage.
We see the same thing among believers. The church can no longer receive or tolerate sound doctrine...just as prophesied. But why? It is the terrible price of freedom to be labeled a heretic and a false teacher. To be seen as different or labeled an outcast. That fear causes people to endorse doctrines that most know aren't true. Of course great expense is taken to repeat the lie enough times so that people actually start thinking there is no other way to see it. The price of a sound doctrine in the face of that kind of mass delusion is to be out on one's own. Free, but cut off from the people who claim to be like ourselves. But these have learned to tow the line. They remain enslaved in their psyche. And the devil has them by the lies they believe they need to be seen as good by the world.
In the church the fear is to depart from the status quo of lukewarm religion into "the dangerous ground" of what sounds like a far-fetched freedom that nobody seems to have or claim to have. Fearful believers are looking to tear down the ones who move ahead...just like the Black culture looks down on they who side with the greater American culture...a culture that is no longer racist. A colour-blind culture that few believe is even possible.
So the devil still divides and rules...based on fear. The fear is one of taking responsibility for the freedom we have been given...as a gift. But learning to live in that freedom is a great challenge. Taking responsibility means you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of success. Growth begins when we stop blaming others and walk fearlessly forward by faith.
I see a lot of people blaming the religious system for a lack of growth. And that is for the believers who have woken from their deep spiritual sleep. Of course if you depend on anything or anyone but God...you will fail. But who's fault in that? No one can force you to bow your head or take a knee. A free person only follows what he knows to be right. Naturally people will SAY they are free even as they submit to the errant culture They say they WANT to follow the lie. So their sin increases.
So we need to be careful of the predominant culture in our society. We need to be careful of the predominant culture in the church. The majority is NEVER right. The truth lies with they who are free. In the case of believers...with they who are free from sin. We are free to ignore a society that most will allow themselves to be defined by. And that defining keeps us enslaved to act like everyone else. Nevermind going outside the camp to be with Jesus. Nevermind becoming one people who have learned to be one body.
The black culture in America is in that same place. There is a feeling that in spite of making HUGE progress towards equality in all walks of life...with an equal opportunity or even more chances to succeed (affirmative action)...the idea of oppression is still there in the psyche. So it is with the church. We can't seem to wrap our minds around being responsible for our newfound freedom in Christ. We still think in terms of being slaves to sin. Just as the predominant black culture continues to beat the drum of victimhood in the face of a supposed "white privilege." Fear of freedom is real and a powerful hindrance to growth.
The gambit of a hypocritical black culture is to look to exploit a white hypocrisy based on white guilt. And many white people are so afraid to be labeled as racist...that they will put on a great show to support the lies that justify them. But it is hypocrisy...and another way to to be afraid of freedom. We prefer bondage...even if that bondage is to a lie. So our mutual hypocrisy keeps us all in bondage.
We see the same thing among believers. The church can no longer receive or tolerate sound doctrine...just as prophesied. But why? It is the terrible price of freedom to be labeled a heretic and a false teacher. To be seen as different or labeled an outcast. That fear causes people to endorse doctrines that most know aren't true. Of course great expense is taken to repeat the lie enough times so that people actually start thinking there is no other way to see it. The price of a sound doctrine in the face of that kind of mass delusion is to be out on one's own. Free, but cut off from the people who claim to be like ourselves. But these have learned to tow the line. They remain enslaved in their psyche. And the devil has them by the lies they believe they need to be seen as good by the world.
In the church the fear is to depart from the status quo of lukewarm religion into "the dangerous ground" of what sounds like a far-fetched freedom that nobody seems to have or claim to have. Fearful believers are looking to tear down the ones who move ahead...just like the Black culture looks down on they who side with the greater American culture...a culture that is no longer racist. A colour-blind culture that few believe is even possible.
So the devil still divides and rules...based on fear. The fear is one of taking responsibility for the freedom we have been given...as a gift. But learning to live in that freedom is a great challenge. Taking responsibility means you have no one to blame but yourself for a lack of success. Growth begins when we stop blaming others and walk fearlessly forward by faith.
I see a lot of people blaming the religious system for a lack of growth. And that is for the believers who have woken from their deep spiritual sleep. Of course if you depend on anything or anyone but God...you will fail. But who's fault in that? No one can force you to bow your head or take a knee. A free person only follows what he knows to be right. Naturally people will SAY they are free even as they submit to the errant culture They say they WANT to follow the lie. So their sin increases.
So we need to be careful of the predominant culture in our society. We need to be careful of the predominant culture in the church. The majority is NEVER right. The truth lies with they who are free. In the case of believers...with they who are free from sin. We are free to ignore a society that most will allow themselves to be defined by. And that defining keeps us enslaved to act like everyone else. Nevermind going outside the camp to be with Jesus. Nevermind becoming one people who have learned to be one body.
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Agios
Well-Known Member
I'm still trying to figure out your theology, Episkopos -lol - but as I read the above, the concept of empowerment might be what some people are lacking in the Church, we don't believe, we lack faith, people tend to want to be under law, how many times was this addressed in the new testament? Socialism has slid into place (big government, so they can control the masses). I hate to use this word for the black community, however, being misconstrued. It doesn't mean empowering over another group of people, or empowering over the police, or even empowering themselves to be above and beyond all other races - but empowerment within themselves to overcome adversity, stop playing the victim and do something with your life, take some responsibility, make your community a better place - this sort of thing is lacking.
In the Church, empowerment should be much more prevalent and we should all be empowered through the Holy Spirit, after all we are participating with the divine nature, with God, all things are possible. We're commanded to live Holy and godly lives, He has given us every single thing we need to live the abundant life in Christ Jesus, we are free.
I would disagree with you that the "religious systems" should not be blamed, they are part of the problem, they have hindered growth in the Body of Christ, in many, many, many different ways. Maybe the person should be blamed for the lack of knowledge, or their lack of growth, idk. The "religious system" has contributed to a whole bunch of lies, a whole bunch of false doctrines, it missed the boat on training up disciples. What they have done is introduced "the prayer of salvation", not Biblical by the way, and told these same that they are saved, nothing else to do, no other sacrifices to make, go and enjoy your life. This concept doesn't hold water when you're faced with a tragedy or a crisis, there is nothing to hold onto in this type of "religion".
We need empowerment to be who God told us who we are and then go and act like it.
Disclaimer - do I need one? lol I am talking about the overall sense I get when I listen to sermons on-line and/or attend different churches. Not talking about any particular church or individual, it's a general sense.
Of course. I think you misread my statement. Believers can blame the devil for their sins the same way believers can point to a faulty church system and refuse to grow. I'm speaking of the excuses people use to NOT take personal responsibility for their own walks. I was contrasting that with a black culture that seeks to blame white people for their enslavement...while being free to do as they wish. Freedom is a big challenge.
Don't get me started on the Babylonian system.
Agios
Well-Known Member
Oh, I agreed with your post. I guess I didn't touch on the sin issue, if it were all the devil, there would be no need for what Paul said in
1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
You've missed my previous posts. Episkopos has manufactured his own theology and is quite proud of it.
You've missed my previous posts. Episkopos has manufactured his own theology and is quite proud of it.
No. You have just never heard the full message preached.
Agios
Well-Known Member
Where can we here this full message preached? Is there a video? Or PDF? Thanks.
Just read along and talk to God. If we are eating his flesh and drinking his blood more than the other stuff, then we should be becoming like Him. Yesterday is gone. Job was a perfect man yesterday, but today? And you? And me?
LOL. More like the Holy Spirit teaches actual truth and gives actual life which I receive...but you are of the religious dogmatic persuasion and are happy with that. Stay with your religious theoretical grasp of things and ignore the life and power I'm speaking of (which the bible testifies of).You've missed my previous posts. Episkopos has manufactured his own theology and is quite proud of it.
I don't post chapter and verse because it would be annoying. But I find that religiously indoctrinated people don't recognize the same idea...but without the chapter and verses citation. In that way it would seem I'm the one inventing things. But the truth is that the modern dogma is an invention based on an inability to tolerate a sound doctrine. (And this is just one example of me citing a bible verse but without writing in the bible coordinates...so it appears I'm speaking my own truth)
Real doctrine is alive...it's not some list of things to believe or a dogmatic statement. The testimony of Christ is a living testimony. So I eschew all forms of static religion...which is based on a dead idea of God. It puts God in a box. When God is reduced to a religious formula...people then claim to understand Him and even have Him...but they are then further from the truth than they were before. And this is intolerable to the carnal religious mind. So then God hides Himself in a place that no one can expect. We need to make room for God. Not cement Him into a human understanding. Not reduce God to the level where He goes easy on our sinfulness. So very few know God and His ways.
The truth is very difficult to convey...because it is alive. He is alive...the living God. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. That is truth...but it needs to be opened up by the Spirit. Unpacked into a hi-rez understanding. And religious men hate that about truth. They stumble over truth in their effort to be justified in their present fallen condition. So they stumble over Christ. Believing they are saved for their own beliefs and claiming to be righteous for it.
Do you understand these things?
Agios
Well-Known Member
I think I do understand, God is bigger than our religion could ever be, comprehend or understand. We get just enough of God to be satisfied but there is so much more. Our systems stunt the potential for this growth. The Spirit wants to teach, but man has a program, man has the next 12 months of sermons already lined up, giving no room for the Spirit's interaction.
The Bible is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit teaches us through it, we learn of God's character, His ways and how he deals with people, we read about other people's experiences, and it all points to a life of walking in the Spirit, it points us to the narrow path. We read it, but now God wants us to experience Him outside of the written Word, He wants us to walk in the Spirit - that is the Life, be led by God, walking in the Spirit and experience God for Himself, this is the Spirit giving Life you speak of (I think is what you're saying). From your previous post to Enoch, you're talking about not running back to the Bible for every single movement we make, because our God lives in us, not necessarily in a book, even though His Words give Life as well, our bodies are His Temple, it doesn't say the Bible is His Temple. This would be referring to how the Spirit is Life and the letter kills. The Bible does say God wants to live in us and among us, so this would require more than one person, the Church, the Church as a whole, an entity, Spiritual, being led by God, walking in the Spirit, avoiding that which might hinder the Spirit.
Is this what you said? lol
Yeah...I get this feeling you like saying "walk in the Spirit"
....But I'm cool with that! I'm interested in seeing just how much you do understand about this...but you are on point with your comments!
Agios
Well-Known Member
HaYeah...I get this feeling you like saying "walk in the Spirit"
Did I say it too many times?
And again, God help me to walk in your Spirit, on your narrow path! That is my prayer.
A story, but I won't give too much detail right now, I started praying - hard a couple of years ago, maybe 3 years ago that God would make me just like Jesus. I did not know at the time what I was asking, I had no idea what that meant, it is the most difficult prayer a person can pray - God is faithful and answers it for you if you are sincere. Let's say I am blessed (now) beyond measure, but it was the hardest years of my life, I lost almost everything, loved ones, my home and I know that I know, it was a direct result of that prayer.
I am not praying that prayer right now. I guess I'm taking a break. lol
The full message can never be preached by people like Episkopos who have gone off the rails. But since you are apparently his *disciple* you will stand up for him regardless.
