The Manner of Jesus' Return

[RR144]

I do not expect Jesus to have a literal sword in His mouth, but to utter the very Word which He is! Which is the sword! Jesus has no trumpet, but angels do and I expect they will blow them! You can only speculate with your opinions as to what things mean. We may agree on many, but disagree on many more.

Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:10) When a thief comes to break into a house, does he carry a bright light and blows a trumpet, shouting to the people, "Hello, you people! Wake up! I am coming to rob your houses"? Of course we know he does no such things. Neither, therefore, does our Lord when He returns as a thief in the night. The thief in the night comes silently, stealthily, hiding in the dark, walking noiselessly with padded shoes or in stocking feet, picking locks and opening doors or windows with quiet deftness, thus concealing his presence from his unsuspecting victims.

 

[Jack]

Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:10) When a thief comes to break into a house, does he carry a bright light and blows a trumpet, shouting to the people, "Hello, you people! Wake up! I am coming to rob your houses"? Of course we know he does no such things. Neither, therefore, does our Lord when He returns as a thief in the night. The thief in the night comes silently, stealthily, hiding in the dark, walking noiselessly with padded shoes or in stocking feet, picking locks and opening doors or windows with quiet deftness, thus concealing his presence from his unsuspecting victims.

Are you referring to His meeting the saints in the air or when He returns as He left with His feet on Mt. of Olives? They are not the same.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:10) When a thief comes to break into a house, does he carry a bright light and blows a trumpet, shouting to the people, "Hello, you people! Wake up! I am coming to rob your houses"? Of course we know he does no such things. Neither, therefore, does our Lord when He returns as a thief in the night. The thief in the night comes silently, stealthily, hiding in the dark, walking noiselessly with padded shoes or in stocking feet, picking locks and opening doors or windows with quiet deftness, thus concealing his presence from his unsuspecting victims.

That is the rapture and not the second coming!

Here are a few verses that describe His Second coming:

Revelation 1:7

King James Version

​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 19:11-21

King James Version

​

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version

​

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus return to earth is not as a thief in the night. But visible, global and with enormous event!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ACCORDING to the creeds, Jesus is to return visibly to the physical eyes of mankind, riding upon a literal cloud, blowing a literal trumpet, shining with a dazzling literal light and blasting the literal universe into atoms. Usually this view of the manner of His Return, His Second Advent, is presented to frighten people into repentance, but upon a close examination in the light of scripture and reason, it is found in many respects to contradict these. So far as a Scriptural basis for this view is concerned, it rests entirely upon erroneous principles of interpretation; for it is drawn from a literal interpretation of figurative passages, such as parables, symbols and dark sayings, which according to the rules of language must, of course, be interpreted figuratively. Not only does this view rest upon a wrong method of interpretation, but upon logical analysis its unreasonableness becomes apparent. For example, in view of the roundness of the earth, how could the people at the antipodes of the place of His arrival see Him coming? Even if, as has been suggested, He would after His coming remain stationary at a certain place in the sky during 24 hours for the rotation of the earth on its axis to make Him visible around the earth eastward and westward, the rotundity of the earth would nevertheless make Him invisible beyond a few hundred miles northward and southward. Clouds forming within the earth's atmosphere, and the earth's rotundity, as well as its size, would make Him invisible at no great distance. A literal trumpet, blowing loud enough to be heard all over the earth, would burst the eardrums of all within at least 12,000 miles of it. And even if these difficulties would be overcome in some manner so that all on earth would e.g., by television, see Jesus in His Second Advent simultaneously with their physical sight and hear the literal trumpet without injury to their ears, it would still be unreasonable to expect Jesus in His glorious spirit body to appear to mankind's physical eyes; for if the light from the glorious spirit body of Christ would appear to the physical eyes of mankind, they would be instantly blinded, as was Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus (Acts 9:3-18); but if they should see that body itself, they would instantly drop dead, as no human can see God and/or Christ and live (Ex. 33:20; Heb. 1:3; 1 Tim. 6:16). And if the literal universe were meant in the Bible passage that speaks of the heavens and earth passing from His face (Rev. 20:11), it would have passed away long ago, yes, at the instant of its creation, for He faces all things. Thus proper methods of interpreting the Bible, as well as reason and facts, contradict the idea that our Lord Jesus in His Return, His Second Advent, appears to mankind's natural sight in a visible manner. In recent years many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Bible scholars, among others, have given up the abovementioned creedal view of Jesus' arrival in His Second Advent. Instead, they agree that at Jesus' arrival and for some time afterward, He will not be visible to mankind's physical eyes. This is commendable, but they do not go far enough, for a candid, reverent and careful study of the Scriptures reveals the fact that our Lord in His entire Second Advent is to be invisible to mankind's physical sight, but visible to their mental sight, their eyes of understanding (Matt. 13:13-17).

Yeah the scriptures says that Jesus would return in the same manner. I understand about his manner of departure, the whole world didn't see Jesus depart. Only believers saw his departure. The world as a whole was completely oblivious to his departure. So Jesus left quietly without public display, only believers saw Jesus departure.
Also at John 14:19 Jesus said the world would see him no more. After Jesus was resurrected from the dead only believers, those who had exercised faith saw Jesus again. No unbeliever saw Jesus after his resurrection.
Jesus will not again take a form of flesh during his second presence. Today Jesus is a immortal spirit who's form is in unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see. He will not lower himself again to be a fleshly person.

 

[Jack]

Luke 24
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Zechariah 14
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yeah the scriptures says that Jesus would return in the same manner. I understand about his manner of departure, the whole world didn't see Jesus depart. Only believers saw his departure. The world as a whole was completely oblivious to his departure. So Jesus left quietly without public display, only believers saw Jesus departure.
Also at John 14:19 Jesus said the world would see him no more. After Jesus was resurrected from the dead only believers, those who had exercised faith saw Jesus again. No unbeliever saw Jesus after his resurrection.
Jesus will not again take a form of flesh during his second presence. Today Jesus is a immortal spirit who's form is in unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see. He will not lower himself again to be a fleshly person.

Well that is the Watchtower line, but not Scripture.

Jesus left visibly.

And Jesus and JOhn both delcared the manner of His return:

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The Watchtower said He returned "invisibly and in secret" in direct opposition to what jesus said.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

See in verse 7 is optomai and can never mean what the Watchtower said- "to see with the eyes of understanding" there are two Greek words that God would have used if He meant that lie.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well that is the Watchtower line, but not Scripture.

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead I can find no place in scripture where Jesus appeared to an unbeliever. So when Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world(unbelievers) would see him no more but his apostles and disciples(believers) would, that's exactly what the scriptures show us happened. Anyone who says that the whole world saw Jesus leave as he went into heaven, is proving he/she doesn't know scripture. The whole world didn't see Jesus leave, and I know for a fact that anyone says that the manner that Jesus left was that the whole world stopped what they were doing and watched in awe as Jesus ascended into heaven are people who have deceived themselves into believing a lie. The world was oblivious to Jesus ascension to heaven. That's just a fact. The angels that said Jesus would come in the same manner he left said that to Jesus apostles and disciples(believers), they didn't say that to any unbelievers, they didn't say that to the whole world because every literal eye in the world wasnt seeing this happen. There were no unbelievers present as Jesus ascended into heaven.

A Greek-English Lexicon which has nothing to do with the watchtower, it says concerning the Greek word for “see” used at Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 this lexicon at volume 2, page 1245a lists this as one of the meanings: “Metaphorically, . . . of mental sight, to discern, perceive." It's obvious to the objective reader of the Bible that the Bible speaks not only of seeing with our literal eyes but also of seeing with our mind and with our heart, Romans 1:20 is another scripture that proves that.

Jesus Christ referred to a sign when he said at Matthew 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Anyone can open their copy of the Bible to Matthew 24:1-29 and read the preceding verses and see the setting for this statement. When you do, you will find that it forms part of Jesus’ great prophecy on the “conclusion of the system of things” or “end of the world,” and the time for announcing “good news of the kingdom” and its establishment. This gives us the key to the understanding of “the sign of the Son of man,” that Jesus spoke of.

At Matthew 24:15 of this chapter Jesus had just referred to the prophet Daniel, and from the expressions he now used with reference to the “sign,” there is no doubt that Jesus was referring back to the prophetic vision recorded at Daniel 7:13, 14 which said, “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”

The “Ancient of Days” is the God of eternity, YHWH God. (Psalm 90:2) He is the Universal Sovereign, the source of all right to rule. The one “like a son of man” is Christ Jesus, as he himself indicated at John 3:13-15 and Luke 22:66-69. What is shown to be taking place here that Jesus referred to as “the sign of the Son of man”? It is the act of God’s Son in receiving authority from his Sovereign Father to rule in an everlasting kingdom, is it not. This event brought the establishment or “birth” of his kingly rule. Do not fail to note, please, that this event takes place, not in the skies of earth’s atmosphere, but in the invisible heavens of Jehovah God’s presence. At the due time, God’s Son, who had been waiting at his Father’s right hand, would enter into full regnal power and authority, obeying his Father’s command: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” (Psalm 110:1; Hebrew 10:12, 13)

So, with regard to “the sign of the Son of man,” I ask, With what eyes did Daniel first see this prophetic sign? Was it not in “visions of his head” and so with the mind’s eye rather than the fleshly or literal eye? (Daniel 7:1) It was in a similar vision, because the book of Revelations was shown to John in signs, that the apostle John was transported far into the future and could say: “I saw, and, look! a white cloud, and upon the cloud someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.” (Revelation 14:14) Considering that “the sign of the Son of man” took place in the heavenly courts, it is only with the ‘eyes of the heart of appreciation’ that “every eye will see” this installed king, Jesus Christ.(Ephesians 1:18).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Some may ask, what about the use of “clouds” in all these texts? Wouldn't that place the “sign” within earth’s atmosphere, where literal clouds form and float and so within the range of human eyesight? Lets take another look at Daniel chapter 7, where the “sign” is first presented. We can see Daniel’s use of symbolisms by which world governments are represented as “beasts” that come up out of the “sea”? (Daniel 7:2, 3) also, in Daniel 7:13 he uses “clouds” in a figurative way to contrast with the symbolic “sea” and
show the heavenly situation where the authority is given to the “Son of man” by which he rules and crushes the beastly governments that the sea of humanity has spawned.(Compare Revelation 13: 1-3 and Revelation 17:15).

In the scriptures, clouds are the accompaniments of the “power and great glory” Jesus mentioned at Matthew 24:30, and also are symbolic of invisibility. (1 Kings 8:10-12) At Mount Sinai it was in clouds and with thunder and lightning that Jehovah God “met” with Moses, and neither Moses nor the people below saw God with their fleshly or literal eyes. (Exodus 20:21; 24:18; 33:20; Deuteronomy 4:11, 12) Likewise, when God’s Son, Jesus Christ, took leave of his apostles and began his ascension to the heavens of God’s presence, the record at Acts 1:9 tells us: “While they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision." The cloud thus cut him off from their literal eyesight but, on the day of Pentecost, YHWH God opened their understanding to perceive that Jesus had ascended even to God’s right hand. (Act 2:33-35) Since the angels, standing by at the time Christ began his ascension, told the disciples that Jesus would “come in the same manner,” we can be certain that his ‘coming in the clouds’ will be invisible to fleshly or literal eyes and be perceived only with the ‘eyes of the heart.’ Like Jesus Father, Jesus now “dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see," so Jesus will not lower himself again to be a fleshly person. He will always dwell in unapproachable light. Humans will not be able to see Jesus and live. (Acts 1:11; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead I can find no place in scripture where Jesus appeared to an unbeliever. So when Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world(unbelievers) would see him no more but his apostles and disciples(believers) would, that's exactly what the scriptures show us happened. Anyone who says that the whole world saw Jesus leave as he went into heaven, is proving he/she doesn't know scripture. The whole world didn't see Jesus leave, and I know for a fact that anyone says that the manner that Jesus left was that the whole world stopped what they were doing and watched in awe as Jesus ascended into heaven are people who have deceived themselves into believing a lie. The world was oblivious to Jesus ascension to heaven. That's just a fact. The angels that said Jesus would come in the same manner he left said that to Jesus apostles and disciples(believers), they didn't say that to any unbelievers, they didn't say that to the whole world because every literal eye in the world wasnt seeing this happen. There were no unbelievers present as Jesus ascended into heaven.

So that means nothing concerning His return!

What matters is what Gods INspired Word says about His return!

Matthew 24:26-30

King James Version

​

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Very visible and unbelievers see HIm!

Revelation 1:7

King James Version

​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Very visible and unbelievers see His return.

this really should end the matter if you believe the bible is Gods Word!

 

[ScottA]

Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:10) When a thief comes to break into a house, does he carry a bright light and blows a trumpet, shouting to the people, "Hello, you people! Wake up! I am coming to rob your houses"? Of course we know he does no such things. Neither, therefore, does our Lord when He returns as a thief in the night. The thief in the night comes silently, stealthily, hiding in the dark, walking noiselessly with padded shoes or in stocking feet, picking locks and opening doors or windows with quiet deftness, thus concealing his presence from his unsuspecting victims.

Indeed.

Notice also that He does not say He comes "in the light of the morning after the darkness has passed", but rather during the darkness of "night."

 

[ScottA]

So that means nothing concerning His return!

What matters is what Gods INspired Word says about His return!

Matthew 24:26-30​

​

King James Version​

​

​

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Very visible and unbelievers see HIm!

Revelation 1:7​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Very visible and unbelievers see His return.

this really should end the matter if you believe the bible is Gods Word!

Ronald, of course all of that is true, but what does it say, "with flesh?" No, but "with clouds", indicating "with heaven/spirit." It is in that context therefore that "every eye shall see"...meaning all have risen and the world has passed away. It is also in that context that the new heavens and new earth commences.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So that means nothing concerning His return!

What matters is what Gods INspired Word says about His return!

Matthew 24:26-30​

​

King James Version​

​

​

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Very visible and unbelievers see HIm!

Revelation 1:7​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Very visible and unbelievers see His return.

this really should end the matter if you believe the bible is Gods Word!

A person can believe that when Jesus says something it doesn't matter, but I know that when Jesus says something it does matter. Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world wouldn't see him again. If someone thinks that when Jesus said that, it doesn't matter what he said, well that just lets me know that person doesn't care too much about what Jesus has to say. After Jesus was resurrected no unbelievers saw him, so anybody saying the manner which Jesus ascended into heaven was that believers and unbelievers saw him ascend into heaven are incorrect. So that means that only believers will know that the second presence of Jesus Christ has begun when it does begin. Just as the unbelieving world was oblivious to Jesus ascension into heaven the unbelieving world will be oblivious to the second presence of Jesus Christ. The unbelieving world will not know that they have been living during the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ until the war of Armageddon begins.
Another thing people have to understand about Jesus today is that at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 this scripture says that the form that jesus is in today is that he dwells in unapproachable light which no man has seen or can see. He will always dwell in his unapproachable light he will not lower himself again to a person of flesh, and humans can't see Jesus in this form which he is in unapproachable light and live.

 

[[email protected]]

ACCORDING to the creeds, Jesus is to return visibly to the physical eyes of mankind, riding upon a literal cloud, blowing a literal trumpet, shining with a dazzling literal light and blasting the literal universe into atoms. Usually this view of the manner of His Return, His Second Advent, is presented to frighten people into repentance, but upon a close examination in the light of scripture and reason, it is found in many respects to contradict these. So far as a Scriptural basis for this view is concerned, it rests entirely upon erroneous principles of interpretation; for it is drawn from a literal interpretation of figurative passages, such as parables, symbols and dark sayings, which according to the rules of language must, of course, be interpreted figuratively. Not only does this view rest upon a wrong method of interpretation, but upon logical analysis its unreasonableness becomes apparent. For example, in view of the roundness of the earth, how could the people at the antipodes of the place of His arrival see Him coming? Even if, as has been suggested, He would after His coming remain stationary at a certain place in the sky during 24 hours for the rotation of the earth on its axis to make Him visible around the earth eastward and westward, the rotundity of the earth would nevertheless make Him invisible beyond a few hundred miles northward and southward. Clouds forming within the earth's atmosphere, and the earth's rotundity, as well as its size, would make Him invisible at no great distance. A literal trumpet, blowing loud enough to be heard all over the earth, would burst the eardrums of all within at least 12,000 miles of it. And even if these difficulties would be overcome in some manner so that all on earth would e.g., by television, see Jesus in His Second Advent simultaneously with their physical sight and hear the literal trumpet without injury to their ears, it would still be unreasonable to expect Jesus in His glorious spirit body to appear to mankind's physical eyes; for if the light from the glorious spirit body of Christ would appear to the physical eyes of mankind, they would be instantly blinded, as was Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus (Acts 9:3-18); but if they should see that body itself, they would instantly drop dead, as no human can see God and/or Christ and live (Ex. 33:20; Heb. 1:3; 1 Tim. 6:16). And if the literal universe were meant in the Bible passage that speaks of the heavens and earth passing from His face (Rev. 20:11), it would have passed away long ago, yes, at the instant of its creation, for He faces all things. Thus proper methods of interpreting the Bible, as well as reason and facts, contradict the idea that our Lord Jesus in His Return, His Second Advent, appears to mankind's natural sight in a visible manner. In recent years many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Bible scholars, among others, have given up the abovementioned creedal view of Jesus' arrival in His Second Advent. Instead, they agree that at Jesus' arrival and for some time afterward, He will not be visible to mankind's physical eyes. This is commendable, but they do not go far enough, for a candid, reverent and careful study of the Scriptures reveals the fact that our Lord in His entire Second Advent is to be invisible to mankind's physical sight, but visible to their mental sight, their eyes of understanding (Matt. 13:13-17).

There is one MAJOR problem with Christian expectations of the future; sequence.

Many theories exist with regard to the future of the church, of Jerusalem, of the world and of one's personal life as its end approaches. Most of these theories are based on imaginary ideas born of secular pagan ideology and Biblical illiteracy. Much of it relies upon social media rather than conventional reading and study of established theological works as well as the Bible.

(22% of Americans get their news and information from social media.)

The problem with these theories is that the SEQUENCE of events they depict is terribly illogical, unfounded and impossible. The secular world laughs at these ideas even as church types argue constantly amongst themselves - failing even to convince each other of their veracity partly because of their illogical sequence.

Without getting into specific theories at this point, the reader should understand that each of them depends upon a temporal sequence - one thing happens after another in time. There are several problems with this point of view.

Chief among them are temporal earthy expectations that one event will naturally and immediately follow another.(*) These sequences are usually dependent upon personal or group opinions as to how to interpret scripture. Another problem is that they aren't observed in the first place. Only imaginary events and times and characters are considered these days based as they are upon the pontifications of popular religious celebrities who appear on social media.

Jesus said one way a person can understand the future is by studying and watching the signs of the times - meaning the events of the current period in time. (Matthew 16:1-3) It's sadly apparent that no one attempts to do so any more because they're focused upon social media where they get most of their news, some of their opinions and a bit of their worship (not of God, but of each other and the church traditions they've constructed for themselves - which in turn causes them to stumble).

That being said, it's my ardent opinion that the post quoted above - the first post of this thread - is already so confused, out of sequence, and out of touch with reality that it represents only the most vague awareness of the fog of our future.

Much more is needed, but doubtless impossible to dredge from the muck of church sequential ideology.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Jewish rabbinate has, for instance, struggled with the concept of a future and/or past Messiah. One acknowledged version recognizes a 'suffering' messiah (ben Joseph), while another hopes for a 'conquering' messiah (ben David). The sequence of appearance of either or both of these figures is a source of debate and ill considered confusion.

On the other hand, the church expects a future 'tribulation' without understanding it's already happened in history - as a sign of the times.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A person can believe that when Jesus says something it doesn't matter, but I know that when Jesus says something it does matter. Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world wouldn't see him again. If someone thinks that when Jesus said that, it doesn't matter what he said, well that just lets me know that person doesn't care too much about what Jesus has to say. After Jesus was resurrected no unbelievers saw him, so anybody saying the manner which Jesus ascended into heaven was that believers and unbelievers saw him ascend into heaven are incorrect. So that means that only believers will know that the second presence of Jesus Christ has begun when it does begin. Just as the unbelieving world was oblivious to Jesus ascension into heaven the unbelieving world will be oblivious to the second presence of Jesus Christ. The unbelieving world will not know that they have been living during the time of the second presence of Jesus Christ until the war of Armageddon begins.
Another thing people have to understand about Jesus today is that at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 this scripture says that the form that jesus is in today is that he dwells in unapproachable light which no man has seen or can see. He will always dwell in his unapproachable light he will not lower himself again to a person of flesh, and humans can't see Jesus in this form which he is in unapproachable light and live.

Well Jesus will not be mortal again.

I will not waste the time to tell you your acceptance of the Watchtower lie of what John 14 means is garbage.

but like Jesus said in Matt. 24:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the nations will mourn and see the son of man coming!

Also in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But because you accept what the Watchtower says as infallible above the bible, you cannot see the contradiction you stand in.

Now go and learn the difference in teh word see which in the original Greek , John is "thereo" and Matt and REv. is "opotanomai".

 

[marks]

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead I can find no place in scripture where Jesus appeared to an unbeliever. So when Jesus said at John 14:19 that the world(unbelievers) would see him no more but his apostles and disciples(believers) would, that's exactly what the scriptures show us happened.

Maybe Saul of Tarsus?

Much love!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well Jesus will not be mortal again.

I will not waste the time to tell you your acceptance of the Watchtower lie of what John 14 means is garbage.

but like Jesus said in Matt. 24:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the nations will mourn and see the son of man coming!

Also in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But because you accept what the Watchtower says as infallible above the bible, you cannot see the contradiction you stand in.

Now go and learn the difference in teh word see which in the original Greek , John is "thereo" and Matt and REv. is "opotanomai".

Just because you and other people who are imperfect people Just like everyone else, and says the watchtower is putting what they say above scripture, that doesn't mean it's true. Any other imperfect person like you can say they think you believe you're infallible in what you're saying and you're putting your belief above the word of God. It's easy to say things like that. It's called a intimidation tactic. Trying intimidate someone to believe your way. instead of just disagreeing with you. just as easily say you're doesn't mean when you say that the watchtower

Maybe Saul of Tarsus?

Much love!

All Saul of Tarsus saw was a bright light that blinded him and he heard the voice of Jesus. So no Saul of Tarsus didn't actually see Jesus.

 

[marks]

All Saul of Tarsus saw was a bright light that blinded him and he heard the voice of Jesus. So no Saul of Tarsus didn't actually see Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:1 KJV
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Didn't the 11, after Jesus' accension, consider it necessary to be an Apostle that you had seen Christ resurrected?

Much love!

 

[Taken]

Yeah the scriptures says that Jesus would return in the same manner. I understand about his manner of departure, the whole world didn't see Jesus depart. Only believers saw his departure. The world as a whole was completely oblivious to his departure. So Jesus left quietly without public display, only believers saw Jesus departure.
Also at John 14:19 Jesus said the world would see him no more. After Jesus was resurrected from the dead only believers, those who had exercised faith saw Jesus again. No unbeliever saw Jesus after his resurrection.
Jesus will not again take a form of flesh during his second presence. Today Jesus is a immortal spirit who's form is in unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see. He will not lower himself again to be a fleshly person.

Barney...
* It was the Word of God, sent forth out from Gods mouth in a body God Prepared.
* That Prepared body was specifically sent to a virgin womb, betrothed to a man of the House of king David.
* The female Mary was expressly told, she would be conceived (pregnant), the child would be a boy, and that boy WOULD BE “CALLED” the Son of God.

Scriptural History tells us WHY.
Scriptural History tells us earthly men were FAILING to BELIEVE what they COULD NOT SEE.
Scriptural History tells us God Promised men on Earth...A Messiah, that they COULD SEE and HEAR.

It was the Son of Man, men could SEE and HEAR, as long as He is IN the Body God Prepared FOR earthly men TO SEE.

It IS the Son of Man, that came to Earth, Left Earth, And SHALL return ... on a Cloud, Above the earth, that ALL SHALL SEE... earthly men on earth, souls beneath the earth, souls in heaven, and all spirits.

It was WHILE the Son of Man was ON Earth, men discovered, HE IS the Son of God, HE IS the Christ, who is Spirit, who is the Power of God, who is the Wisdom of God, who is the Seed of God, who is the Spirit who births again a mans spirit from natural to spiritual.

KNOWING is one thing, SEEING is another thing.
No man has SEEN God, Heard His Voice, Seen His Shape, Seen His Power, Seen His Spirit....Yet (some) men HAVE experienced “THE EFFECTS”, “THE REFLECTION”....of His Word, Power, Spirit, Seed, etc.
(which is exactly from the beginning what made God angry when historical men complained, they needed to see HIM to believe, when God wanted men to SEE the Effects, Reflections, Results, OF Him, as being sufficient to Believe IN Him.)

If Jesus did not Return .... IN the body, as the Son of man....the majority of the World would NOT, could NOT SEE Him. Because the majority OF the world are humans with “limited” human Eye-sight.

A handful SAW/Witnessed the revealing (birth) of Jesus on Earth.
Yet nearly everyone in and of the world Has Heard About Him.
A handful of men SAW/Witnessed Jesus depart From Earth.
Yet nearly everyone in and of the world Has Heard of His intended Return.

Everyone shall See with their own sight, His appearance IN...actually sitting ON a white Cloud....Before He sets foot on Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Just because you and other people who are imperfect people Just like everyone else, and says the watchtower is putting what they say above scripture, that doesn't mean it's true. Any other imperfect person like you can say they think you believe you're infallible in what you're saying and you're putting your belief above the word of God. It's easy to say things like that. It's called a intimidation tactic. Trying intimidate someone to believe your way. instead of just disagreeing with you. just as easily say you're doesn't mean when you say that the watchtower

All Saul of Tarsus saw was a bright light that blinded him and he heard the voice of Jesus. So no Saul of Tarsus didn't actually see Jesus.

Saul saw the LIGHT, so bright it blinded him.
Remember...God IS LIGHT....Jesus is the TRUE LIGHT? John chap 1.

Think with your spirit in your heart, to understand the spiritual Truth.
Don’t think with your logical carnal mind nor understand with your mind, concerning spiritual things.

Correct. Saul did NOT see a bodily form in the shape of an earthly man.
Yes, Saul SAW Jesus, as He is SPIRIT, The TRUE LIGHT.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well Jesus will not be mortal again.

I will not waste the time to tell you your acceptance of the Watchtower lie of what John 14 means is garbage.

but like Jesus said in Matt. 24:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the nations will mourn and see the son of man coming!

Also in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But because you accept what the Watchtower says as infallible above the bible, you cannot see the contradiction you stand in.

Now go and learn the difference in teh word see which in the original Greek , John is "thereo" and Matt and REv. is "opotanomai".

Well there at Revelation 1:7 which says that they also which pierced him will see him, you're saying those that pierced Jesus will literally see him, wasn't that a Roman soldier that pierced Jesus side with a spear? That soldier and all Roman soldiers are long dead. So how are those that pierced Jesus literally going to see Jesus?
Also, regarding Matthew 24:30 at Matthew 24:15 Jesus had just referred to the prophet Daniel, and from the expressions he now used with reference to the “sign,” there is no doubt that Jesus was referring back to the prophetic vision recorded at Daniel 7:13, 14.
What is shown to be taking place here when Jesus referred to at Daniel 7:13, 14 as “the sign of the Son of man” isn't it, the act of God’s Son in receiving authority from his Sovereign Father to rule in an everlasting kingdom? This event brought the establishment or “birth” of his kingly rule. (See also Revelation 12:1, 2, 5, 10) I Do not fail to note, that this event takes place, not in the skies of earth’s atmosphere, but in the invisible heavens of YHWH God’s presence.

So a good question to ask is, why, then did Jesus say the sign would “appear” in heaven and that all the tribes of the earth would “see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”? Is that not to be expected in view of the statement made at Revelation 1: 7?
As I said, a helpful comment in this regard is found in A Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott, and this Lexicon has nothing to do with the watchtower Ronald Nolette. Anyway this lexicon says concerning the Greek word for “see” used at Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 (Volume 2, page 1245a) one of the meanings in that list of meanings is, “Metaphorically, of mental sight, to discern, perceive.” So this lexicon says regarding the Greek word, "opotanomai" one of the meanings of the list of meanings of this Greek word is, metaphorical which means, perceive or discern. This seems reasonable to me because when I ask myself, with what eyes did Daniel first see this prophetic sign? Wasn't it in “visions of his head” and so with the mind’s eye rather than the literal eye? (Daniel 7:1) Daniel saw this in a vision right? Wasn't it in a vision that the apostle John was transported far into the future and could say at Revelation 14:14 : “I saw, and, look! a white cloud, and upon the cloud someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Isn't it true that John saw all this in signs, isn't that how the book of Revelation was communicated to John?(Revelation 1:1)

Then we have the scriptural fact that today the form that Jesus is in is that he dwells in unapproachable light which no man has seen or can see. (1 Timothy 6:15, 16) Jesus will not lower himself again, he will not lower himself from this form. Humans can't see Jesus in this form and live. So no, humans on earth will not see Jesus literally with their eyes.