The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[ewq1938]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
Jesus, ie how he related while here on Earth sees, feels, behaves just as the Father has always seen, felt and behaved.
Check the beginning of Hebrews 1

None of that is related to our discussion plus you are SDA and SDA's are Premill so none of your arguments make any sense.

 

[quietthinker]

None of that is related to our discussion plus you are SDA and SDA's are Premill so none of your arguments make any sense.

lol....you're a funny one!
Firstly, I'm not SDA ...and secondly, my post has everything to do with the discussion, it's just that you do not see it.

Here's a suggestion; ask some questions instead of assuming.
Without enquiry, without the knowledge of information you do not yet know, speculation and assumption (incorrectly might I add) will take the boat to a shipwreck.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no thousand year gap implied in the above fact in-between what those who come out of great tribulation will experience, and the new heavens and new earth.

There has already been 1900+ years "gap" between the start of the church and the Second Coming. No verse states they all came out at the same time. The OT assembly entered that on resurrection Sunday. Those coming out of great tribulation have been doing that for almost 1992 years. That is an ongoing phenomenon. Another 1,000 years of life on earth is not a gap. That is life in Paradise.

Life in Paradise does not change. The location of Paradise itself changes, and life goes on as it always has since the Cross. You don't expect God to take away those blessings and give them back after 1,000 years. Neither do pre-mill, so this is not an issue at all.

The 1,000 years is not a gap. The time since the Cross is not a gap. The fulness of the Gentiles is not a gap. Life is going on as planned from the beginning of creation. Calling out gaps is as bad as dispensational misrepresentation.

If amil claim one single age without any changes in heaven and earth, they need to figure out 2 Peter 3. Obviously they have missed some aspects of Peter's teachings. Could that be "gaps" in their assessment of history?

How can Peter be talking about the lost as scoffers? Most on earth accept evolution, and that is all about change, and definitely many ages. Can I point out that it is those who scoff at dispensations who claim no change since creation? Obviously there was a new heaven and earth and age when Noah stepped off the ark. For one, the sons of God were no longer present on earth, and only Adam's dead corruptible flesh survived. Sin was passed on and death reigned to continue Adam's 6,000 years of punishment.

A change happened when Abraham was called out of the Nations. I guess that was not a "biggie" for those who scoff at dispensations. And the list goes on.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you also think that needs inserted into Rev 21 and 22? Why do you think past events have to be inserted into passages that come after?

It's Premillennialism that inserts the notion of "after a thousand years" into the text of Revelation 21 and 22:

Revelation 21:1 And (Premil: after a thousand years) I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.

Premillennialism also inserts the same notion into the text of Revelation 7, because there is no difference between drinking of the fountains of living waters and God dwelling permanently among His people, and His people serving Him day and night in His temple as described in Revelation 21 and Revelation 7:14-17:

Revelation 21
3 And (Premil: after a thousand years) I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
5 And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Revelation 7
14b These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore (Premil: after a thousand years) they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 (After a thousand years) they will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For (after a thousand years) the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[Zao is life]

There has already been 1900+ years "gap" between the start of the church and the Second Coming. No verse states they all came out at the same time. The OT assembly entered that on resurrection Sunday. Those coming out of great tribulation have been doing that for almost 1992 years. That is an ongoing phenomenon. Another 1,000 years of life on earth is not a gap. That is life in Paradise.

Life in Paradise does not change. The location of Paradise itself changes, and life goes on as it always has since the Cross. You don't expect God to take away those blessings and give them back after 1,000 years. Neither do pre-mill, so this is not an issue at all.

The 1,000 years is not a gap. The time since the Cross is not a gap. The fulness of the Gentiles is not a gap. Life is going on as planned from the beginning of creation. Calling out gaps is as bad as dispensational misrepresentation.

If amil claim one single age without any changes in heaven and earth, they need to figure out 2 Peter 3. Obviously they have missed some aspects of Peter's teachings. Could that be "gaps" in their assessment of history?

How can Peter be talking about the lost as scoffers? Most on earth accept evolution, and that is all about change, and definitely many ages. Can I point out that it is those who scoff at dispensations who claim no change since creation? Obviously there was a new heaven and earth and age when Noah stepped off the ark. For one, the sons of God were no longer present on earth, and only Adam's dead corruptible flesh survived. Sin was passed on and death reigned to continue Adam's 6,000 years of punishment.

A change happened when Abraham was called out of the Nations. I guess that was not a "biggie" for those who scoff at dispensations. And the list goes on.

Revelation 7:13-17 is talking about the same people that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about, and the same people that Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about.

 

[Timtofly]

It's Premillennialism that inserts the notion of "after a thousand years" into the text of Revelation 21 and 22:

Revelation 21:1 And (Premil: after a thousand years) I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.

Premillennialism also inserts the same notion into the text of Revelation 7, because there is no difference between drinking of the fountains of living waters and God dwelling permanently among His people, and His people serving Him day and night in His temple as described in Revelation 21 and Revelation 7:14-17:

Revelation 21
3 And (Premil: after a thousand years) I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
5 And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
6 And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Revelation 7
14b These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore (Premil: after a thousand years) they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
16 (After a thousand years) they will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For (after a thousand years) the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Can you source those pre-mill that do that? Sounds made up and contrived, simply for arguments sake.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 7:13-17 is talking about the same people that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about, and the same people that Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about.

No it is not. Revelation 20:4 is referring to a specific type of people: those beheaded in the last 42 months, prior to their resurrection.

Those in Revelation 7 is the entire Church body from Abel to the 6th Seal.

1 Thessalonians 4, has people in Paradise and alive on earth, ie the church.

Was Abel blessed at the Cross, and given a first resurrection that prevented the Second Death to have power over him? Was Abel beheaded? Will Abel be alive on the earth waiting for the Second Coming? Context is key here, not putting every one in the same basket helps.

 

[ewq1938]

It's Premillennialism that inserts the notion of "after a thousand years" into the text of Revelation 21 and 22:

lol, no. Amill also recognizes that the thousand years ends in Rev 20 and the next chps are after it.

 

[Zao is life]

Can you source those pre-mill that do that? Sounds made up and contrived, simply for arguments sake.

I'm not Premil. Or Amil. Or Post mil.

Amil sees that the NHNE follows the return of Christ and goes, "therefore the thousand years is symbolic of the period in-between the ascension of Christ and His return".

Premil sees that this cannot be, since the scripture clearly shows that the thousand years commences after the beheading of those mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, and Satan is definitely not bound because there is nothing in scripture which agrees with such a notion, and goes, "therefore the NNHE follows a thousand years after the return of Christ.

But Adam was living forever in paradise during the sabath rest of God and yet God allowed Satan to test him. It isn't as though Adam never knew what God had said - he knew exactly what God had said. He knew God had said, "You shall surely die", and the lie said, "You shall not surely die" . But he sinned, and died.

OSAS is only promised to those in Revelation 20:4-6. Not all of the resurrected saints are promised what the saints in Revelation 20:4-6 are promised. The saints in Revelation 20:4-6 will have already been tested. That is why the 2nd death will not apply to them.

Paradise begins when Jesus returns. The NHNE begins when Jesus returns. After a thousand years Satan will be allowed a second and last time to test the rest of the resurrected saints who have not been tested the way Adam was. Those whom Revelation 20:4-6 mentions have already been tested, and overcame, are the only saints who are promised that the 2nd death will have no power over them.

And they will rule over the rest of the resurrected saints for a thousand years.*

* Edited: No doubt the apostles, and all who have been martyred over time for their testimony to Christ, will be included in this group. But I'm not claiming that Revelation 20:4-6 is saying anything about them, because it isn't. Revelation 20:4-6 isn't giving us much information at all, except that the saints being spoken of here, are those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or his image.

Great tribulation is only talking about one thing and one thing only, and it's mentioned only 3 times in the New Testament - only 3 times.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not Premil. Or Amil. Or Post mil.

Amil sees that the NHNE follows the return of Christ and goes, "therefore the thousand years is symbolic of the period in-between the ascension of Christ and His return".

Premil sees that this cannot be, since the scripture clearly shows that the thousand years commences after the beheading of those mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, and Satan is definitely not bound because there is nothing in scripture which agrees with such a notion, and goes, "therefore the NNHE follows a thousand years after the return of Christ.

But Adam was living forever in paradise during the sabath rest of God and yet God allowed Satan to test him. It isn't as though Adam never knew what God had said - he knew exactly what God had said. He knew God had said, "You shall surely die", and the lie said, "You shall not surely die" . But he sinned, and died.

OSAS is only promised to those in Revelation 20:4-6. Not all of the resurrected saints are promised what the saints in Revelation 20:4-6 are promised. The saints in Revelation 20:4-6 will have already been tested. That is why the 2nd death will not apply to them.

Paradise begins when Jesus returns. The NHNE begins when Jesus returns. After a thousand years Satan will be allowed a second and last time to test the rest of the resurrected saints who have not been tested the way Adam was. Those whom Revelation 20:4-6 mentions have already been tested, and overcame, are the only saints who are promised that the 2nd death will have no power over them.

And they will rule over the rest of the resurrected saints for a thousand years.*

* Edited: No doubt the apostles, and all who have been martyred over time for their testimony to Christ, will be included in this group. But I'm not claiming that Revelation 20:4-6 is saying anything about them, because it isn't. Revelation 20:4-6 isn't giving us much information at all, except that the saints being spoken of here, are those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or his image.

Great tribulation is only talking about one thing and one thing only, and it's mentioned only 3 times in the New Testament - only 3 times.

Paradise was opened at the Cross. They have been leaving great tribulation, due to length for 1992 years and physically entering Paradise.

The final harvest at the Second Coming is the time of unprecedented trouble.

Why are you saying Satan is not bound? If Satan is not bound, then those in Revelation 20:4 don't reign with Christ. You are saying John was wrong about one aspect, but not another aspect.

People at the end of the 1,000 years on earth come from somewhere. Don't you think there are normal humans doing normal things on earth? Of course not our normal, it will be a different normal, but still normal life.

 

[Zao is life]

Paradise was opened at the Cross. They have been leaving great tribulation, due to length for 1992 years and physically entering Paradise.

The final harvest at the Second Coming is the time of unprecedented trouble.

Why are you saying Satan is not bound? If Satan is not bound, then those in Revelation 20:4 don't reign with Christ. You are saying John was wrong about one aspect, but not another aspect.

People at the end of the 1,000 years on earth come from somewhere. Don't you think there are normal humans doing normal things on earth? Of course not our normal, it will be a different normal, but still normal life.

Tribulation is something Christians must face all the time, but megas thlipsis (Great Tribulation) is only mentioned 3 times in the New Testament:

There are only two New Testament references to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.

2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

There are no other New Testament mentions of tribulation as the experience of those who are not Christians.

Here is the list of New Testament verses talking about the persecution and tribulation of Jesus, the apostles, and Christians:-

Persecution: Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9, 21 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:19, 24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14

Great Tribulation: Mentioned only three times in the New Testament and each time it's the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22; Revelation 7:14; 'Olivet Discourse': Matthew 24:21 *

If you read Matthew 24:9, 21-22 and 29-31 and compare it with Revelation 2:22 and Revelation 7:14, and with all the other scriptures above referring to tribulation (that don't call it great tribulation), you will see the fallacy in your belief that great tribulation is something that has been taking place since the church was born.

* Luke uses the words great distress and wrath in Luke 21:23 in reference to what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation). Luke 21:23 is not talking about the tribulation of the saints.

 

[Zao is life]

Paradise was opened at the Cross. They have been leaving great tribulation, due to length for 1992 years and physically entering Paradise.

The final harvest at the Second Coming is the time of unprecedented trouble.

Why are you saying Satan is not bound? If Satan is not bound, then those in Revelation 20:4 don't reign with Christ. You are saying John was wrong about one aspect, but not another aspect.

People at the end of the 1,000 years on earth come from somewhere. Don't you think there are normal humans doing normal things on earth? Of course not our normal, it will be a different normal, but still normal life.

Satan will be bound for a thousand years. Then he will be allowed to deceive again - for the second and last time that he will be allowed to deceive mankind in paradise. The first time was in the garden of Eden. Satan did not tempt Adam at the start of God's sabbath. We are not told at what time, or how long it was after God breathed His Spirit into Adam making him a living soul that God allowed Satan to tempt Adam in paradise.

Whether those in Revelation 20:4-6 will be reigning over all the other resurrected saints who never were tested as they were, or over non-resurrected mortals I do not know. Jesus told us in His Revelation that whatever the seven thunders uttered will remain sealed until the 7th trumpet sounds.

If they are mortals then Premil is true, because there cannot be mortals in the new heavens and new earth. But Revelation 7's multitude who came out from great tribulation are shown to be in the new heavens and new earth, so then Premil is wrong.

All I'm saying is that there is biblical evidence that the new heavens and new earth follows immediately after the return of Christ, but there is also biblical evidence to show that Satan is definitely not currently bound, and the text itself has the thousand years commencing after the resurrection of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and refusal to worship the beast or his image.

So Amillennialists and Premillennialists are both partly correct and partly wrong.

 

[quietthinker]

tooooooo much tossing....toooooo much!

 

[Truth7t7]

but there is also biblical evidence to show that Satan is definitely not currently bound, and the text itself has the thousand years commencing after the resurrection of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and refusal to worship the beast or his image.

So Amillennialists and Premillennialists are both partly correct and partly wrong.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[ewq1938]

If they are mortals then Premil is true, because there cannot be mortals in the new heavens and new earth. But Revelation 7's multitude who came out from great tribulation are shown to be in the new heavens and new earth, so then Premil is wrong.

People being in the new Earth does not prove Premill wrong. Rev 7 is of the timeframe of the NHNE. It is simply LONG after the second coming.

 

[Zao is life]

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Then already at the beginning of the millennium they have already been seen living (zao) and have always been reigning with Christ over all these nations and were raised in the first resurrection (anastasis) after they were beheaded.

It's a nice theory used by Amil to make it easier to place the millennium into the period in-between the ascension and return of Christ, but it isn't scriptural. It actually contradicts the text of Revelation 20 and plays the binding of Satan down, bringing it down to the level of human reasoning so that the thousand years can make sense.

@Truth7t7 It's also adding the words "unto battle" to Revelation 20:3 (adding to the scriptures in order to take away from them)

Revelation Chapters 12-13 has Satan going to war against the woman, then against the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, then immediately afterward giving power to the beast to war against the saints and cause all the world to worship the beast or his image.

Those who are seen in Revelation 20 have been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and their refusal to worship the beast or his image.

Before Revelation 20 there's no binding of Satan in any way, or anywhere else in scripture - not even "binding in order that he cannot deceive the nations to battle" - which you have added to scripture to take away from the meaning of Revelation 20.

 

[Zao is life]

Rev 7 is of the timeframe of the NHNE. It is simply LONG after the second coming.

So they went through great tribulation and remained faithful but will have to wait another thousand years in order to experience the promises made to those who overcome in the NHNE?

 

[ewq1938]

So they went through great tribulation and remained faithful but will have to wait another thousand years in order to experience the promises made to those who overcome in the NHNE?

Yes. The NHNE does not come until after the GWTJ and the LOF, Rev 20-21.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes. The NHNE does not come until after the GWTJ and the LOF, Rev 20-21.

He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Same blessings promised to those who came out of great tribulation in Revelation 7. The first time in the Revelation you read that there is no more curse, is in Revelation 22:3. The new Heavens and new earth and the thousand years are the same.

 

[ewq1938]

Same blessings promised to those who came out of great tribulation in Revelation 7.

I know. See this:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.

This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the Millennium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This is comparable to this:

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Ok, this is where it gets interesting.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the Millennium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.

So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.

tribulation
2347

2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}

from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f

AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45

1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.