The Mark of the Beast is here!

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marks

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Comprehending 1 Cor. ch. 2 will expand your spiritual horizons of His understanding, as He expounds upon His "text" within you.
Be sure to spiritually look for Him, when you present yourself to Him as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable for His use. Rom. 12:1
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 KJV
1) And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Maybe you could highlight the part that addresses the Mark of the Beast?

Otherwise you are referencing a passage that doesn't address the issue. Only that you think the passage in the Revelation should be understood to mean something other than what it is saying.

This would be like all those times people have attempted to defend their fanciful interpretations of John's vision by saying, "Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible", as if in saying so, they are now free to interpret according to their very vivid imagination.

Much love!
 

MatthewG

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To any reader,

While people may have various views. It doesn't stop them from having a heart for God... I mean. The thing is you would never know... Some people believe it's about performance, and being right doctrinally, however that is not the truth. The truth is, allowing people to be themselves, while you can debate over doctrines and stuff, no one is completely superior to another human being. Why? Because God has not any favorites. God doesn't favor me, over so-and-so who murdered someone and they ended up having a life changing experience with the Lord Yeshua, and they no longer went for the thrill of murder. That's the beauty of love... I'm not saying it's okay to go murder whoever you want, but ... Yahavah is much bigger than us all.


When it comes down to the mark of the beast. I have always been taught that it was a ticket or an allegiance. In which was seen when the Roman and Jewish people were confiding in one another, only to have Rome turn on the Jewish people and start to slaughter them. I do not believe today that the mark of the beast is here today. Despite many people who believe so...


It's not about being religious, it's about living in the resurrected spirit of Lord Yeshua, and loving your neighbor as yourself. Sometimes you can just leave you neighbor to what they believe if they believe its the end of days, or the believe that mark of the beast is here. While it is crazy to some people or whatever... No one topples over the other person in "winning" when it comes to the Spirit. All people are equal in having fallen short of the glory of God, and Yeshua having paid the price of sin while we were yet still unbelievers or sinners.


I will teach what I have come to know hopefully by the spirit of the resurrected Christ Yeshua within, but everyone has to do their own testing, and searching in faith God earnstly, which pleases him.

I find it all amazing, and I know how us human beings can most certainly be. I myself and finished with the thread all together.

Grace and peace,
Matthew
 

Earburner

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Maybe you could highlight the part that addresses the Mark of the Beast?
My reply was for what you implied in post #131. You said: "Feel free to use your imagination, and you can consider me narrow and limited, as I limit myself narrowly to the text."
My reply now is, I believe that you, having no interpretation from Jesus about Rev., has relegated you to only the written words of Rev.
Otherwise you are referencing a passage that doesn't address the issue.
Same as my reply above.
Only that you think the passage in the Revelation should be understood to mean something other than what it is saying.
Of course you would say that because you don't have an interpretation at all, and therefore you have no other option but to literally accept the literal words only.
This would be like all those times people have attempted to defend their fanciful interpretations of John's vision by saying, "Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible", as if in saying so, they are now free to interpret according to their very vivid imagination.
"The mind of Christ" is not the mind of every man's interpretation, but rather it is His interpretation for every man that believes in Him.
"There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one Truth."- Earburner
 

marks

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My reply now is, I believe that you, having no interpretation from Jesus about Rev., has relegated you to only the written words of Rev.
Yeah, I get that from you.

People tell me things like this all the time, because I believe the Bible. You say, "it means differently from what it says, I know, because the voice inside says so." OK, for a lot of people, that's enough. And there are so very many strange doctrines out there, because you, and they, just won't believe what's actually written.

Do you know what I've found out about the spiritual understanding? Its about how to know truth as the Spirit leads you to understand what is written, not what is not written. It's not about overturning the meaning of Scripture, it's about causing you to understand how it can actually mean what it says, even though it's contrary to what you may think, and how it all works together in harmony.

So go ahead and add all you like, it's not me you'll have to contend with.

"The mind of Christ" is not the mind of every man's interpretation, but rather it is His interpretation for every man that believes in Him.
And yet, having departed from the what is written, you end up with a million different doctrines from a million different people, and that's not the mind of Christ.

Much love!
 

marks

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Of course you would say that because you don't have an interpretation at all, and therefore you have no other option but to literally accept the literal words only.
Bizarre! You really seem to be reaching here.

I'm curious, does anything in the Revelation mean what it says?

Much love!
 
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Muna

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Bizarre! You really seem to be reaching here.

I'm curious, does anything in the Revelation mean what it says?

Much love!

I doubt it, I take this section with a grain of salt most times.

I think @Earburner believes that two witnesses put to death in Revelation (whose bodies were refused burial) are both John and Jesus, even though John and Jesus both died (and were actually buried); Even though the gospel itself that is preached is Jesus Christ, who died, was buried (and raised from the dead). One of those two witnesses that was not buried is the Lord (who was killed in the very same place as the Lord) but was left un-buried.

If you believe otherwise you are part of "church-ianity"

Did I get that right ear burner? pplh
 
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Earburner

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1 Corinthians 2:1-16 KJV
1) And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Maybe you could highlight the part that addresses the Mark of the Beast?

Otherwise you are referencing a passage that doesn't address the issue. Only that you think the passage in the Revelation should be understood to mean something other than what it is saying.

This would be like all those times people have attempted to defend their fanciful interpretations of John's vision by saying, "Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible", as if in saying so, they are now free to interpret according to their very vivid imagination.

Much love!
1 Cor. ch. 2 most definitely addresses the issue of how it is that we are able to understand the prophetic scriptures in all of the Bible and not just Revelation.

For you to even say that, flies against the very words of the Holy Spirit through Paul.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 
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Earburner

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I doubt it, I take this section with a grain of salt most times.

I think @Earburner believes that two witnesses put to death in Revelation (whose bodies were refused burial) are both John and Jesus, even though John and Jesus both died (and were actually buried); Even though the gospel itself that is preached is Jesus Christ, who died, was buried (and raised from the dead). One of those two witnesses that was not buried is the Lord (who was killed in the very same place as the Lord) but was left un-buried.

If you believe otherwise you are part of "church-ianity"

Did I get that right ear burner? pplh
No. Revelation is not about all future things to come from our perspective in time.
John the Baptist and Jesus are the two anointed ones of Zech. 4:11-14 that CAME. However, in Rev. they are called as being the Two Witnesses. They are not to come in the future but in the past, of which they did. They would be and were a joint ministry. John for 6 mos. for Repentance, and then Jesus for 3 yrs. for Salvation, which totalled to 3.5 years, aka 1260 days.

Now, because both were born with the Holy Spirit, both could never die, even though their mortal bodies would and did suffer mortal death. John, who was "born from beneath", died under the OC. and therefore was remembered by God in the "Book of remembrance"- Malachi 3:16-18.
Jesus, who was Himself eternal, "born from above" died after John. However, when Jesus died, being eternal, on the very same day many came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection, John the Baptist being one of them.

Again, of all people in the world, ever since Adam, John the baptist and Jesus were the only TWO that were ever born having the Holy Spirit upon birth.
1 Cor. ch. 2- "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual", by the discernment of "the mind of Christ" within you, it's all right there written in the gospel scriptures.
 
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rockytopva

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No. Revelation is not about all future things to come from our perspective in time.
John the Baptist and Jesus are the two anointed ones of Zech. 4:11-14 that CAME. However, in Rev. they are called as being the Two Witnesses. They are not to come in the future but in the past, of which they did. They would be and were a joint ministry. John for 6 mos. for Repentance, and then Jesus for 3 yrs. for Salvation, which totalled to 3.5 years, aka 1260 days.

Now, because both were born with the Holy Spirit, both could never die, even though their mortal bodies would and did suffer mortal death. John, who was "born from beneath", died under the OC. and therefore was remembered by God in the "Book of remembrance"- Malachi 3:16-18.
Jesus, who was Himself eternal, "born from above" died after John. However, when Jesus died, being eternal, on the very same day, many came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection, John the Baptist being one of them.

Again, of all people in the world, ever since Adam, John the baptist and Jesus were the only TWO that were ever born having the Holy Spirit upon birth.
1 Cor. ch. 2- "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual", by the discernment of the mind of Christ within you, it's all right there written in the gospel scriptures.
Is there anyone on planet Earth who sees Revelation the same way you do?

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5

It is important that we leave conversations like this one open to error on our part. As Isaac Newton did in his time... As far as Isaac Newton’s 2060AD quote he said.... “It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
 
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Muna

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No. Revelation is not about all future things to come from our perspective in time.
John the Baptist and Jesus are the two anointed ones of Zech. 4:11-14 that CAME. However, in Rev. they are called as being the Two Witnesses. They are not to come in the future but in the past, of which they did. They would be and were a joint ministry. John for 6 mos. for Repentance, and then Jesus for 3 yrs. for Salvation, which totalled to 3.5 years, aka 1260 days.

Now, because both were born with the Holy Spirit, both could never die, even though their mortal bodies would and did suffer mortal death. John, who was "born from beneath", died under the OC. and therefore was remembered by God in the "Book of remembrance"- Malachi 3:16-18.
Jesus, who was Himself eternal, "born from above" died after John. However, when Jesus died, being eternal, on the very same day many came out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection, John the Baptist being one of them.

Again, of all people in the world, ever since Adam, John the baptist and Jesus were the only TWO that were ever born having the Holy Spirit upon birth.
1 Cor. ch. 2- "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual", by the discernment of "the mind of Christ" within you, it's all right there written in the gospel scriptures.
So the Lord was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death, but when he was born of the Holy Spirit he could not die, and being one of the two witnesses his body wasnt suffered to be put in a grave either, and so Jesus did not die, nor was he buried? And the gospel of our Lord needs this special discernment that makes all of what you say make sense to me?

Edit:typo
 

Earburner

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Is there anyone on planet Earth who sees Revelation the same way you do?
I can't answer about what others understand or not
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thessalonians 5
Can you agree that the issuance of "the mark of the beast" and the time of a "falling away" (2 Thes. 2:3) shall take place before 2 Thes. 1:7-10 is a sudden reality for all people?

Now, reflect on 1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 

Earburner

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So the Lord was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death, but when he was born of the Holy Spirit he could not die, and being one of the two witnesses his body wasnt suffered to be put in a grave either, and so Jesus did not die, nor was he buried? And the gospel of our Lord needs this special discernment that makes all of what you say make sense to me?

Edit:typo
You will continue to be confused about John and Jesus being the Two Witnesses, because of how you are approaching the topic.
Do not let the words of Rev. drive your thinking of who the 2W shall be, but rather let Zech. 4:11-14 and the gospel accounts about John and Jesus deliver you to Rev. and then you will know who the 2W were.
 
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Muna

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You will continue to be confused about John and Jesus being the Two Witnesses, because of how you are approaching the topic.
Do not let the words of Rev. drive your thinking of who the 2W shall be, but rather let Zech. 4:11-14 and the gospel accounts about John and Jesus deliver you to Rev. and then you will know who the 2W were.

I am always less confused when I don't read the things in this section clfh
 

Earburner

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Bizarre! You really seem to be reaching here.

I'm curious, does anything in the Revelation mean what it says?

Much love!
Because you ask that question, you realize that the book of Revelation truly is the words of God, Who speaks in the past, in the present and in the future all at the same time. We ourselves are unable to do that.
 

Earburner

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I am always less confused when I don't read the things in this section
Then do yourself a favor and continue studying your interpretations by "the wisdom of men". Church-ianity is full of such that live life in "the natural man".
 
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Muna

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Then do yourself a favor and continue studying your interpretations by "the wisdom of men". Church-ianity is full of such that live life in "the natural man".
I dont study under any man, hate to burst your "church-ianity bubble"

I think you had mentioned (the last time we chatted, what last year? ) that you were like 3 years outside of what you refer to as "churchianity" whereas I am well over 35 years outside of it. But even if that be the case, I need to tolerate you running around calling everything I cannot receive from you "churchianity" clfh
 

rvmb

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Mmmm. So you know who the beast is then. Care to share this with us?
M.O.B. is yet future and those who future take it will lose their salvation, where does Paul teach that today a believer can become unsaved/unsealed/unjustified ?
 

Brakelite

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If we use king Neb's statue as one of our guides, we can see that there are four manifestations of the 4th Beast, each at different stages of its evolution..
1. Symbolized as Iron- the Roman Republic.
2. Divided being Two legs of Iron-.Roman Empire, both East (Byzantine) and West (Roman Catholic).
3. Two feet of Iron mixed with clay- Independant Europe.
4. Ten toes of Iron and clay- European Union.
Hold on there, you are looking at the statue with a preconceived theory as to its identity, as being a "manifestation" of the 4th beast. You are looking at the 4 th beast and going back into the statue in order to justify a wrong conclusion. I suggest you simply take scripture as it reads, and Daniel's interpretation as he relays it to the king.
4 empires. The head of gold, Babylon. 3 more to come, each with waning moral value but increasing tyrannical power. The 4th Empire, as history revealed and with which you agree, is Rome. Later as you noted, it changed in character, and became associated (not completely united because iron doesn't mix with clay) through politics and shared policy. The clay can be understood, by studying scripture and how it is defined elsewhere, as representing God's people. I'm OT times, God people was Israel. But we aren't talking about OT by the time the iron becomes mixed with clay. Rome never made any political agreement with Israel that could even remotely be worthwhile God's gift of the dream to the world. And note also that the destruction of the ten toes introduces a time where those powers have become utterly ended, their influence over, and a new order, the kingdom of God, in its rightful position. So the clay must apply to the church. In the beginning, the clay was malleable and able to be worked according to the designs of the Master Potter. But not so by the time the clay became entangled in politics. This was the 4th century, with the beginnings of the rise of papal Rome. A power that has totally depended on politics in order to sustain its influence in the world, and has this become miry clay, and unworkable in its present condition.
So that's all we can deduce from a study of the iron portion of the statue, and an intelligent and informed study of history.

To add more information, we then must go to Daniel 7, and against as you rightly pointed out, the 4 th beast. We need to take one step at a time, and not presume we know more than has been revealed. While I agree that pagan Rome divided into two branches, I do not believe that we should relate that back into the prophecy. Then we would need to account for 5 toes in each branch. We would need to account for the papacy's influence in both. While there was some important political moves made by the eastern Emperor Justinian towards establishing the papacy as a legal power with authority, by that time the western branch had dissolved. Reconciling that with the statue cannot be done. Hence we look to the 4th beast, and see if their are historical correlations there confirming what we have thus far found, and such needful confirmation we do indeed find, and a lot of it.
We must consider first the ten horns, powers or nations that arose from the head of the beast. Remember, one step at a time. No presumptions, no guesswork, no taking present day conclusions and attempting to fit them into ancient prophecy. We take the prophecy first, and use that as the basis for understanding history. The statue formed the framework. Note we are adding the sinew and tissue. There must first be an answer to an obvious question. What area is under scrutiny in this picture? All prophecy deals explicitly with the major impact made upon God's people over the course of history. That's why we don't find South America, China, or Australia in prophecy. Though there was important events and Christian influence in this nations, as far as the prophecy is concerned, we need to focus more on what affected Israel as a local literal nation, and then later, how the church developed into a global spiritual power. We see that particularly in Revelation, but we aren't there yet, although there are hints off that in Daniel.
The ten horns became 7. As the Empire was dissolving, what took place in Europe, (the principle concentration of Christian activity in the first centuries of the new millennia) that powerfully impacted the Christian community? What we find its that through power Spirit filled evangelism, the nations that invaded the former Empire as Rome abandoned it, were all converted to one form of faith or another. All of them were formerly pagan entities, but through the influence of evangelists such as Wulfilas, Patrick, and earlier word of mouth arising from the ministry of Paul particularly in Galatia, the gospel spread very quickly from Asia to Britain before the turn of the first century, and it was from Irish evangelists such as Columba and Columbanus that central Europe, specifically Germany and France and Switzerland, became converted. Of course, those nations didn't exist as such several centuries later, with the influx on Germanic tribes with the dissolution of the Empire in the 5th century.
We find at least 10 explicit criteria confirming the papacy as there little horn. That little horn, which arose to power through accidental circumstances and through the help of Justinian, became an opposing enemy to the evangelism previously mentioned. And throughout history, there have been two main branches of Christian thought and policy that dominated Europe. The politically powerful papal Catholic church that inherited the throne and authority of the Caesars, and the evangelical churches that inherited the gospel from the apostles. Those two branches have been in tension ever since.
This the prophecy of Daniel 7 finds is complete fulfilment in the rise of that little horn, which had power over the Saints, and made war with them. In later centuries, as Revelation's prophecies unfolded, we see a global conflict ongoing between those same powers, one represented by the harlot, the other by the pure church of Revelation 12, and in chapter 13 we see them sea beast still comprising those powers even from Daniel 2 and 7 inheriting their pagan traditions and practising them under a counterfeit Christian guise.