The Most Disturbing Verse: Giving Into The Adversary's Demands

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Wrangler

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.
 

Hidden In Him

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.


It purifies. The analogy of being sifted from the chaff is similar to that of gold being purified in the fires of trials and sufferings. Both purify the soul, by cleansing it of any and all desires for the things of this world.
 
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Pearl

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Luke 22:31-32 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
 

FHII

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According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.
I will start with Amos... There is a difference between Luke 22:31 and Amos 9:9. The former is Satan looking to sift and the latter is God actually sifting. God does it to separate for purification. Satan looks to separate that which is pure to cause fornication (in the sense of tainting, for lack of a better term).

As for Job... It is a strange circumstance. It comes off almost as a bet between God and Satan with a righteous man caught inbetween. In the end, God knew Job wouldn't break. While Job went through a ohysical and emotional hell, he was rewarded with more riches, greater knowledge, loosed of some bad family members and "friends" and a powerful testimony.

God allowed Satan to sift Job to a limited level. Seems unfair, but in the end we learn something powerful: that if we are faithful, God does not leave us.

Finally... Those parallel verses are theologians doing their best to guide you. I like them, but they are not always divinely given.
 

Wrangler

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“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail.

You do realize this thread is not about my concern that we may fail the test, right? Rather my concern is the deference to who is conducting the test, KNOWING his motives.
 

Raccoon1010

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.
Where does it say God gave into Satans will? Because he didn't.
 

Raccoon1010

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It is implied. Reading comprehension. Otherwise, the text has no practical application.
God testified to me that Satan can do no good and God can do no evil so I'm not going to assume that. But I think I now understand why you're saying that. OK.
 

marks

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You do realize this thread is not about my concern that we may fail the test, right? Rather my concern is the deference to who is conducting the test, KNOWING his motives.
God allows evil in our lives, but knowing what the final outcome will be, and knowing how He will use it, even though we don't know, and Satan/minions don't know.

God allowed Satan to afflict Job, knowing that God knew Job's character, not Satan. I think is the first lesson to learn from Job, that God is the true judge of human nature, and not Satan. When God tells you something about people, believe Him, I don't care what things look like.

Same thing in Ecclesiastes, God gave Solomon wisdom and knowledge and riches and power, prosperity in every way, to prove that nothing in this world will be worthwhile, only doing what God says.

God used calamity instigated by Satan to prove the He is the better judge of human nature, and therefore, God alone has the answers we seek.
God used prosperity given to Solomon to show that nothing we can come up with on our own will give us those answers.

God promises that all things will work together for our good, we being those who love God, who are the called. This says to me that nothing that cannot work for me good will be permitted by God. I think this is the restraining of the hidden working of lawlessness (2 Thess 2). So then depending on the results God is looking for, and depending on how He has determined to achieve them, maybe He will use a natural process, or maybe supernatural, they are all natural to Him. He allows evil within limits.

Your thoughts on this?

Much love!
 
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Pearl

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You do realize this thread is not about my concern that we may fail the test, right? Rather my concern is the deference to who is conducting the test, KNOWING his motives.
o_O
 

Wrangler

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God promises that all things will work together for our good, we being those who love God, who are the called. This says to me that nothing that cannot work for me good will be permitted by God.

Well, there are the heroes who died horribly in Hebrews 11:35-38. But the evil thrust upon them were from other people - not Satan.
 

Robert Gwin

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.

It is basically common sense Wangler, the closer the relationship with Jehovah is, such as in the case of the Apostle Peter, wouldn't that put him higher up on the hit list of the adversary? Yes as you mentioned he did it in the past with Job as well, satan never changes, God's people are his enemies, heck he went after Jesus as well, Mat 4. The thing is, he has no real power over Christians, as God promises that He will not let us be tempted beyond what we can bear, and that He will make the way out for us. 1 Cor 10:13
 

Daniel Veler

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Wrangler all scriptures are given that we may learn and have hope. The apostle wrote:
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience
The story of Job shows us that those having trust in Christ will triumph no matter what comes against them. Your reward is great.

and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
 

Brakelite

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The answer lies in the answer to another question...why is Satan still alive even? Why didn't God destroy him in the beginning, so that none of the crap that's been poured out upon mankind for 6000 years would proceed?
The answer to both questions, is that ideas/mindsets/ideologies that are rooted in rebellion (aka Lucifer) must be allowed to play out. God isn't deferring to Sattan's wishes, just merely giving him enough rope to hang himself, and add coals to his head so that in the end, all his arguments concerning the condemnation and guilt, the worthiness of man to die, etc, will be in the end utterly refuted. Satan's rule as prince of the earth will be finally paid to rest and he would have proved himself unworthy to rule through his own actions and ineptitude to govern...and it will be seen and recognised by all.
 
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Amazed@grace

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It is a curiosity as to why God cast Lucifer from heaven after Lucifer led the war there instead of just destroying him.

And in Job Lucifer was let to bring trials onto Job and with God's permission. Just to test Job's faith.
Wouldn't God already know Job would stay faithful?
And why does God let Lucifer come back into heaven?

Luke 22:31, could the sifting like wheat of the apostles have occured when we're told all but John were martyred?
 

VictoryinJesus

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.

was going to mention the same as another member 1 Peter 1:5-7 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [6] Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
 

VictoryinJesus

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You do realize this thread is not about my concern that we may fail the test, right? Rather my concern is the deference to who is conducting the test, KNOWING his motives.

Yet what Jesus Christ said to Peter “and when you return(are converted), strengthen your brothers”, not an if you return but when... very similar to Job 42:10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
 

robert derrick

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The answer lies in the answer to another question...why is Satan still alive even? Why didn't God destroy him in the beginning, so that none of the crap that's been poured out upon mankind for 6000 years would proceed?
The answer to both questions, is that ideas/mindsets/ideologies that are rooted in rebellion (aka Lucifer) must be allowed to play out. God isn't deferring to Sattan's wishes, just merely giving him enough rope to hang himself, and add coals to his head so that in the end, all his arguments concerning the condemnation and guilt, the worthiness of man to die, etc, will be in the end utterly refuted. Satan's rule as prince of the earth will be finally paid to rest and he would have proved himself unworthy to rule through his own actions and ineptitude to govern...and it will be seen and recognised by all.

A thought here. Your question is very good. Most people say, if God is so good, why does He allow evil things to happen. But you say more accurately, why has God allowed the evil one to continue, only to sow more evil? Which he did from the beginning of man in the garden.

Another question might be, why did God allow pride and evil to enter the heart of an archangel in the first place? Since the source of evil was 'created' by Lucifer, who Jesus calls the father of lies (John 8:44) Is this not how God thus created evil? (Is 45:7) and for the time being allows evil to continue in creation?

It is evident that God allows tribulation and temptation and deception to come our way in order to try our faith in Him (Dan 12:10). But does He do so, because of Lucifer's sin? I.e. Because Lucifer sinned, who was created perfect in all his ways (Ezek 28:15), God is no longer sure anyone will abide faithful, and so He must allow the 'test of time' to tell?

I believe love and risk are at play. When you love someone, you are therefore at risk of betrayal. As one man said, it is only your friends that can betray you. You expect it from your enemies.

I dont believe God knows for certain our responses to trials of faith. Scripture says of God, Now I know Abraham fears God (Gen 22:12), by not withholding his only son. Love is therefore a risk. And greater love is a greater risk. God risks allowing His people to be tempted, because He must, else love is not proven. God is love, and so God is bound to allow His love to be tested, whether He likes it or not, because iniquity was found in Lucifer, and so iniquity might also be found in us.

I believe this is where love is declared greater than faith (1 Cor 13:13). We are saved by grace through faith, but it is love that makes faith sure and eternal. Our love of God, even as His love of us, grows as we walk with Him (Eph 4:15) (Col 2:19), and as our love grows (so the song says), so do the trials grow greater, along with the greater risks of failure. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Without great risk there is no great success.

God literally risked all His Creation by allowing Lucifer to sin and to continue as a false angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), and He even sweetened the pot by making man in His own image in creation. And why? Because He did know of a certainty that the devil would be overcome by man (Rev 17:14), and that man, made in His own image, would choose Him over Satan (Josh 24:15), because He would in the latter days throw all stakes on the table by sending His own Son into the world. Jesus, who is God, was sent as God's ace in the hole to prove once and for all that a man made according to the flesh (Rom 1:3), would not accuse and reject God after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:14). And that man is the man Christ Jesus.

Knowledge, reasonings, learning, etc...may indeed vanish away in the final trial (1 Cor 13:8), but love will be greater at that time, even greater than death. By faith we know God loves us (John 3:16, I John 4:19), but only by the love of God shed abroad in our hearts (Rom 5:5), can we be sure we will love Him and not our own lives to the end (Rev 12:11). By faith we overcome the world (1 John 5:4), but by love we overcome Satan. By love we stand sure for God and will lay down our life for Him, even as He did for us. (John 15:13)

The reason God allowed iniquity to enter into Lucifer, and then allowed Satan to continue for a season to make war against us (Rev 6:11, 12:12) is because His love in us wants us to overcome Satan for ourselves, and prove to ourselves and to Him, that we love Him more than we love the creation He created. (Rom 1:25)(1 John 2:15). In this way Satan and his tribulation are become necessary for us to be tried (Acts 14:22). We ought not want him to be shut up (Rev 20:3) nor to be taken out of the way of His tribulation (2 Thess 2:7), lest we fall short of full trial that proves the fullness of His love in our hearts (Eph 3:19). Paul was torn between two things: A sure road to glory by death, or continued risk of grievance, betrayal, and sorrow in the ministry of Christ. He would remain in the world, because he so loved the believers, even as God so loved the world. The risk was worth the reward, and he was willing to risk it even for Gentiles that were called uncircumcision (Eph 2:11) by his own kinsmen after the flesh. The same as Jesus was willing to risk the cross for mankind that is called but flesh by His own Father. (Psalms 78:39)

Great trial has great risk, but only great trial can grow great love. And what was the greatest trial of the man Jesus? His wish to be taken out of the way of the cross. (Mark 14:36) He shed blood of prayer for our sakes, before He ever shed blood on the cross. In the end, Satan may be our accuser (Rev 12:10), but he really is no risk nor match nor great adversary for us. We all shall look narrowly upon him (Isaiah 14:16) as the weakling that he is, so long as we love God as He first loved us in laying down our lives for one another. (1 John 4:9, 3:16)
 

Stumpmaster

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In today's devotional reading, I came across this verse.

31 “Shim‘on, Shim‘on, listen! The Adversary demanded to have you people for himself, to sift you like wheat!
Luke 22:31 (CJB)


According to the NSRV, parallel verses are found at Job 1:6-12, Am 9:9. I find the notion of the LORD giving into the Adversary profoundly disturbing. Please help me come to terms with this.
This post reminds me of the backlash I got from one user for stating that Christ's suffering and death on the Cross was God's Will. Satan is always opposed to God's Will, which is evident in this verse.

Mar 8:33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."
 

VictoryinJesus

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why is Satan still alive even? Why didn't God destroy him in the beginning, so that none of the crap that's been poured out upon mankind for 6000 years would proceed?

just for the sake of conversation...could ask why is mankind still alive even? Like in the OT where Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Or Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

And again, why didn’t God destroy man (an reprobate mind) in the beginning so that none of the crap that's been poured out upon mankind for 6000 years would proceed

The answer to both questions, is that ideas/mindsets/ideologies that are rooted in rebellion (aka Lucifer) must be allowed to play out. God isn't deferring to Sattan's wishes, just merely giving him enough rope to hang himself, and add coals to his head so that in the end, all his arguments concerning the condemnation and guilt, the worthiness of man to die

“and add coals to his head” Proverbs 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: [22] For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.

...that in the end all his arguments concerning the condemnation and guilt, the worthiness of man to die ‘that every mouth might be stopped and found guilty’ Romans 6:11-12 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


Satan's rule as prince of the earth will be finally paid to rest and he would have proved himself unworthy to rule through his own actions and ineptitude to govern...and it will be seen and recognised by all.

would you say the reprobate mind has proven unworthy to rule through his own actions and ineptitude to govern...and it will be seen and recognized by all? Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That the mind of Christ ...let this mind that was also in Christ rule ‘govern’ you