The most "evident" truth of scripture

[HiddenManna]

Exactly, Christ is the overcomer, who lives where? IN US! He overcomes in us.

It's not rocket science.

Who said it was? its simple but it is a mystery

Exactly, Christ is the overcomer, who lives where? IN US! He overcomes in us.

It's not rocket science.

Childlike faith is the key

 

[williemac]

well of course I do, and these things of God are not based upon man or mans abilty to keep the law, but based upon faith in Christ and the Spirit of God working in and through the believer.

So then it is man's ability and determination to cooperate with the Spirit in him, to keep the law (do good works, love, and not sin). ...right? This is what we all can agree on. But where some go astray is when they bring this into the arena of justification. They do this by suggesting that one can lose his eternal life by failing to perform to a certain standard in this area. ie...too much sin, unrepentant sin, unconfessed sin, lack of good works, etc. Take your pick.

But Jesus said that we by our faith in Him, have passed from death to life and will not come under judgment. I still have not seen anyone rebut this passage (John 5:24). They all seem to dance around it like it doesn't exist. If an unrepentant sin can lose us our salvation, it would be by virtue of being judged for it. What judgment?

Agreed?

 

[aspen]

Have you guys ever been around kids between the ages of 6 and 12? they are in the law bounded, concrete operational stage of development. Law is king. I remember spending 90 percent of my time at that age simply making up the rules of a game rather than playing it. Fairness and justice and right punishment for evil doers was extremely important because boundaries gave us our identies in the world.

You can still find many adults who are operating in this manner - lawyers, clergy, scientists often count themselves among them.

Jesus challenged all people still caught up in the Law by cutting across it. Using the law in order to actually play the game of loving God and neighbor. The Pharisees that opposed Him did so by trying to suspend the game in order to get the rules straight. Anyone who knows Christ throught experience cannot limit themselves to memorizing the rules of the game - folks who this are caught in the concrete opration stage and are not living abundantly. No fully talented and able bodied person wants to stop a football game and discuss the rules for 10 minutes. Jesus and the disciples called everyone to stop being afraid to just play the game. Unfortunately, many people never get around to it because they are preoccupied with the nuances of the rules and making sure everyone is following them
Jesus to the Pharisees 'loosen up!'

Pharisees: 'you are breaking the rules - tighten up'

So why are so many churches today so concerned about the rules?

 

[Episkopos]

Well I doubt that very much that some are keeping a "perfect standard" and the standard is perfect in that which Christ works through the Spirit, not the works of man or mans religious efforts.

That depends what sins you think are in Christ.

 

[HiddenManna]

So then it is man's ability and determination to cooperate with the Spirit in him, to keep the law (do good works, love, and not sin). ...right? This is what we all can agree on. But where some go astray is when they bring this into the arena of justification. They do this by suggesting that one can lose his eternal life by failing to perform to a certain standard in this area. ie...too much sin, unrepentant sin, unconfessed sin, lack of good works, etc. Take your pick.

But Jesus said that we by our faith in Him, have passed from death to life and will not come under judgment. I still have not seen anyone rebut this passage (John 5:24). They all seem to dance around it like it doesn't exist. If an unrepentant sin can lose us our salvation, it would be by virtue of being judged for it. What judgment?

Agreed?

Well I dont like to let others describe my beliefs and then put me in some sort of religious box of their own understanding. I would ask what you mean by " keep the law"? That can mean a whole lot of things to a lot of people. If you mean fulfill the law through love? yes. And I think I can agree with the rest of your post.

That depends what sins you think are in Christ.

well I never mentioned any sins in Christ, I said I doubt that some are keeping a perfect standard(except that they keep Christ) And Christ is perfect and In Him there is no sin

 

[williemac]

Well I dont like to let others describe my beliefs and then put me in some sort of religious box of their own understanding. I would ask what you mean by " keep the law"? That can mean a whole lot of things to a lot of people. If you mean fulfill the law through love? yes. And I think I can agree with the rest of your post.

I had originally mistaken you for someone else, so had to edit my post. But I do think we are in agreement as well.

I think the OP is looking at justifying the brand of lawless grace that abounds far more...

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The natural man is looking for a scheme that justifies a man who remains in his sins. But there is no such scheme in truth.

I notice the big bold type. So what is the holy commandment? What is the way of righteousness? Righteousness is imputed, by way of faith. The holy commandment is found in 1John 3:23.." And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as he gave us commandment". Faith and love.

But I suppose you were saving space by not quoting all of the context in 2Pet. He begins the chapter by revealing that he is speaking of false prophets and false teachers.

If you wish to use this passage to suggest condemnation to those who fall away from the faith, then fine. But we are told by John in 1John 2:1, that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father...Jesus. We are told by Jesus Himself that through faith in Him we will not come into judgment (John 5:24). He Himself said that those who bear fruit would bear some100, some 60, and some 30.

So what does this 30 (or even 15) look like? Does it look like a person who is walking in the full victory of sinlessness, and in the full fruit of the spirit? Not even close. Has such a person buried his talent? Not at All. Is He judged or condemned by our Lord? Absolutely not!!

If we are discussing theories here, then we should get to the standard that you think must be kept. Let's put an exact picture to it if you think we can. But otherwise, I don't think any of us are called to throw our brothers and sisters under the bus for being imperfect in their walk. And I certainly don't see that Peter was doing that either.

 

[marksman]

Did you know that in most evangelical churches, you are under the law?

Yes, that is right.

Here are some of the laws that are imposed by man.....

To be a member of this church you have to attend communion at least once a month.

You cannot preach unless you are ordained.

You have to be a member for 12 months before you can be involved in ministry.

All revelation is subject to the pastor's approval.

We have a dress code which you are expected to conform to (unwritten).

Tithing is a standard practice for this church.

Expressing the gifts of the Spirit is not welcome here.

We are a Calvinist Church.

To be a Christian, you need to confess your sin, be baptised in water and spirit and speak in other tongues.

The pastor always has the last word (unwritten).

If you don't attend Sunday morning regularly your commitment will be questioned (written and unwritten).

Questioning the pastor is not welcome (unwritten).

To be considered for membership you will be interviewed by a membership committee, who will report back to the leadership. You will then be appraised over a period of six months to see if you are good enough for us.

The pastor is the first among equals but he is more equal than others.

The Elders are there to support the pastor.

We have the right to shoot the wounded (unwritten).

The pastor is the boss around here and don't you forget it (unwritten)

Who can separate you from the love of God? We can if you disagree with us (unwritten).

The right hand of fellowship will be extended to you as long as you comply with all our rules and regulations.

Now the sad thing about all these laws is that we believe the keeping of them is somehow going to score brownie points for us on the way to heaven.

And the sad thing is that this is reinforced by the leadership of the church.

And the sad thing is that none of these rules are found anywhere in scripture so we have created our own 10+ commandments to make us seem more holy than the next person and to replace those in Exodus 20.

And in replacing the 10 commandments in scripture we feel that we can ignore them because we have our own set of commandments which are more modern and relevant to our denomination or church.

And unlike the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 which are a promise for the believer, our own 10+ commandments are laws, not promises and if you break them, you are in real trouble.

In other words, once saved, you earn your salvation with all these add ons.

Let me share something with you that happened to me. One day when I was praying, I was taken into the heavenlies into God's throne room. There I discovered that whether I was good, bad or indifferent, God was crazy about me. His love for me could not be challenged. It was total.

That changed my perception of God totally. And I tell you what, the leadership of the church hate it because my security is in God and God alone so I don't feel the need to submit to all their rules/laws. Which means they cannot control me.

I can be me and let God make me whoever he wants me to be. Soooooooooooooooooo liberating.

FOOTNOTE: The Associate Minister unveiled the church's new tithing campaign slogan last Sunday "I upped my pledge - Up yours." (not a law. A notice in a church bulletin).

 

[HiddenManna]

Wow, I agree and there is a difference between encouraging each other unto good works and laying yokes of religious works. Or taking a portion of scripture and building a false standard by which believers are put under bondage to the letter and not being feed as unto the spirit.

Some of these lines are not always real clear, but we know that if a church is teaching the law even in part as in the tithe, they are teaching error and bondage to the letter.

I did not see the post on 2 Peter on this thread but lets look at what Peter is warning against?

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

"the way of righteousness" is the righteousness of faith, those who "turn" from this way are those who turn back to the law and to self-righteousness by the law.

Thus they were washed by the gospel, but have returned to wallow in their own sin and flesh "for the strength of sin is the law"

 

[Episkopos]

I had originally mistaken you for someone else, so had to edit my post. But I do think we are in agreement as well.

I notice the big bold type. So what is the holy commandment? What is the way of righteousness? Righteousness is imputed, by way of faith. The holy commandment is found in 1John 3:23.." And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as he gave us commandment". Faith and love.

But I suppose you were saving space by not quoting all of the context in 2Pet. He begins the chapter by revealing that he is speaking of false prophets and false teachers.

If you wish to use this passage to suggest condemnation to those who fall away from the faith, then fine. But we are told by John in 1John 2:1, that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father...Jesus. We are told by Jesus Himself that through faith in Him we will not come into judgment (John 5:24). He Himself said that those who bear fruit would bear some100, some 60, and some 30.

So what does this 30 (or even 15) look like? Does it look like a person who is walking in the full victory of sinlessness, and in the full fruit of the spirit? Not even close. Has such a person buried his talent? Not at All. Is He judged or condemned by our Lord? Absolutely not!!

If we are discussing theories here, then we should get to the standard that you think must be kept. Let's put an exact picture to it if you think we can. But otherwise, I don't think any of us are called to throw our brothers and sisters under the bus for being imperfect in their walk. And I certainly don't see that Peter was doing that either.

Christianity is not an immunity from prosecution for sin. That is a man-made doctrine that has turned Christianity into the most lax religion on earth.

 

[HiddenManna]

Christianity is not an immunity from prosecution for sin. That is a man-made doctrine that has turned Christianity into the most lax religion on earth.

Im a little confused about how the last post was put together? I would like to answer willemacs concerns, but I do not see that post?
And who is promoting sin but those who teach law, for the strength of sin is the law and the power over sin is grace.

Rom 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What I am teaching is the power over sin that is only found in being set free from the law.

 

[Episkopos]

Im a little confused about how the last post was put together? I would like to answer willemacs concerns, but I do not see that post?
And who is promoting sin but those who teach law, for the strength of sin is the law and the power over sin is grace.

Rom 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What I am teaching is the power over sin that is only found in being set free from the law.

And this very position of lawlessness leads to gay ministers ...ok maybe not that particular lawlessness...but lawlessness regardless.

If our Christianity does not uphold the commandments of God...then we are worse than sinners.


Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


In the above verse the keeping of God's commandments is a good thing. Do you read that as well?

 

[HiddenManna]

And this very position of lawlessness leads to gay ministers ...ok maybe not that particular lawlessness...but lawlessness regardless.

If our Christianity does not uphold the commandments of God...then we are worse than sinners.


Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


In the above verse the keeping of God's commandments is a good thing. Do you read that as well?

How could power over sin lead to "gay ministers"? Gay people who do not know the real grace of God but only religion leads to gay ministers.
Yes, John tells us what the commandments of God are in plain words; To believe on His Son and love as He gave commandment. You do understand that John wrote more that the book of Revelation, dont you?

 

[Episkopos]

How could power over sin lead to "gay ministers"? Gay people who do not know the real grace of God but only religion leads to gay ministers.
Yes, John tells us what the commandments of God are in plain words; To believe on His Son and love as He gave commandment. You do understand that John wrote more that the book of Revelation, dont you?

One man's lawlessness affects what happens in the world...especially for the Christian. The church is responsible for it's abandoning holiness. This abandoning of holiness has caused a shift away from righteousness both in the church and in society. The church is being led by society now not so much by the Holy Spirit.

 

[daq]

Well I am not here to offend any one group, but the fact that many are going about to establish their own righteousness by works, is very evident to me, and many others. The fact that the law of Moses, is being taught, in many groups cannot be denied.

2Co 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Well, you do understand that the Ten Commandments are the law of Moses, dont you?
And these are taught in many places, many groups teach one must keep the sabbath day of the week. If you cannot see this? Then I doubt you will understand what the term "evident" means.

Do you really think the "law of Moses" is just circumcision? No all that is written in the book of the law, "every jot and tittle"

2Co 3:7

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 (Ten Commandments)

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Yes, the skin (Exodus 34:29-35 KJV) of the face of Moses shone with such glory that his countenance needed to be vailed. And that glory which shone in the skin of his face was of course "done away" because the skin of his face was flesh. What a beautiful contrast the Scripture makes between "the Flesh" and the Spirit. Nevertheless when the heart shall truly repent and turn to the Father then the vail of the flesh is taken away through the Testimony of Messiah, (for the flesh profits nothing and the words of Yeshua are Spirit and Life from the Father). And what remains when the mind and eyes of the flesh are dissolved is the Spirit of Torah: then the vail over the heart and mind which keeps one from understanding the Covenants is finally done away. Therefore every scribe which is discipled into the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder which brings forth out of his thesauros-treasury things new and old.

 

[williemac]

Christianity is not an immunity from prosecution for sin. That is a man-made doctrine that has turned Christianity into the most lax religion on earth.

The prosecution was executed upon our Lord on our behalf. This is Christianity. We have the gospel. (good news)
As for now, He chastens those who sin. He doesn't condemn His own. ( John 5:24). If we read the latter part of Rom.7, and Luke 18:10-14, we can find a common theme. We can see that God looks at the heart and mind, and not merely the outward events. We can see a sinner being justified because of his attitude and not by moral success. God gives grace to the humble.

As for laxness, I don't see love as being lax. The commandments of the new covenant are faith and love (1John 3:23).

Christianity is the only religion that offers love, joy, and peace in spite of an individual's circumstance or situation. This is not laxness. It is what God has offered to the heart. It is what inspires us to bear fruit. Blessings, Howie

 

[Episkopos]

The prosecution was executed upon our Lord on our behalf. This is Christianity. We have the gospel. (good news)
As for now, He chastens those who sin. He doesn't condemn His own. ( John 5:24). If we read the latter part of Rom.7, and Luke 18:10-14, we can find a common theme. We can see that God looks at the heart and mind, and not merely the outward events. We can see a sinner being justified because of his attitude and not by moral success. God gives grace to the humble.

As for laxness, I don't see love as being lax. The commandments of the new covenant are faith and love (1John 3:23).

Christianity is the only religion that offers love, joy, and peace in spite of an individual's circumstance or situation. This is not laxness. It is what God has offered to the heart. It is what inspires us to bear fruit. Blessings, Howie

This is true...but there is more to Christianity than a better animal sacrifice. There is a new creation in Christ...in a power that walks in Him...walking exactly as He walked. So we are perfected in love.

1Jn_4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[Wormwood]

So then it is man's ability and determination to cooperate with the Spirit in him, to keep the law (do good works, love, and not sin). ...right? This is what we all can agree on. But where some go astray is when they bring this into the arena of justification. They do this by suggesting that one can lose his eternal life by failing to perform to a certain standard in this area. ie...too much sin, unrepentant sin, unconfessed sin, lack of good works, etc. Take your pick.

But Jesus said that we by our faith in Him, have passed from death to life and will not come under judgment. I still have not seen anyone rebut this passage (John 5:24). They all seem to dance around it like it doesn't exist. If an unrepentant sin can lose us our salvation, it would be by virtue of being judged for it. What judgment?

Agreed?

Willimac,

No one would argue that we are saved by works. However, as James makes clear, what kind of faith it is that does no good works, does not love and lives in sin? This is not the faith of Abraham and is not a biblical definition of faith. John 5:24 and other such passages use a present participle which indicates an ongoing action. "Whoever is hearing my word and is believing in me..." Thus, it is implied that believing is an ongoing action, not a past event that took place one day in a church building. Now, I agree that unrepentant sin cannot lose us our salvation. However, unbelief can. Often unrepentant sin is a strong sign of unbelief (Hebrews 3:18-19). Those who continue in the faith are convicted of their sin and turn from it.

 

[williemac]

Willimac,

No one would argue that we are saved by works. However, as James makes clear, what kind of faith it is that does no good works, does not love and lives in sin? This is not the faith of Abraham and is not a biblical definition of faith. John 5:24 and other such passages use a present participle which indicates an ongoing action. "Whoever is hearing my word and is believing in me..." Thus, it is implied that believing is an ongoing action, not a past event that took place one day in a church building. Now, I agree that unrepentant sin cannot lose us our salvation. However, unbelief can. Often unrepentant sin is a strong sign of unbelief (Hebrews 3:18-19). Those who continue in the faith are convicted of their sin and turn from it.

Thank you for your comment. Many have quoted from James on this topic and others like it. But I really wonder just who has taken the time to read through his letter and determined his intent. Abraham was mentioned by James. What were his works? He offered his son on the alter. This proved that he believed God's promise that his seed shall come through this very same son. He concluded that God would raise him up. The other example mentioned by James was that of Rahab the harlot. What were her works? She was told that she would be spared if she helped God's messengers. She believed it, as demonstrated by the help she gave.

James was writing to his fellow converted Jews, and through his observations concerning their conduct, was not impressed by their lack of love or inconsistency of it. He knew that those who are of the faith would have a better testimony of love towards one another.

If there is any suggestion that these readers of the letter were not bearing good works, then James was not telling them to do better works. He was questioning their faith.

I disagree with your conclusion that unrepentant sin is a sign of unbelief. Jesus confronted those whom He called His servants, in Rev.2:20-22, who were being seduced into committing sexual immorality. He did not question their faith. He called them His servants. What He did was tell them to repent or else He would chasten them with great tribulation (trouble).

Faith is simply the means by which we receive things from God. It's purpose is nothing more. God offers a free gift, and those who accept His offer, take Him at His word, and take the gift freely, are exercising faith.

It is a mistake to mix the sin issue with the faith issue.

I would rather say that those who don't see eternal life as being a free gift, are they who are at risk of not being of faith. They go about doing their deeds and abstaining from sin, in order to secure their good standing. So then, where is the faith in that? It's in themselves. Is life a free gift or not? If indeed God says it is, do we believe Him or not? How will this be demonstrated? Working for life is a demonstration of the opposite. Bearing the fruit of life that has been given is a demonstration of faith.

How do we know the difference, since they both look the same? It's in the motive.

Those who go about telling us that our walk must meet a certain standard in order for us to survive God's judgment...this is an outward show of their own motives, thoughts, and intentions. You can only give what you have.

If a person has no works, then he is lacking the new man, the new birth, or the indwelling presence of God. These do not need to hear the law. They need to hear the good news. They are not yet saved.

Back to James..dead faith.....works do not bring faith to life. Faith brings works to life. It's always about faith. If one wants smoke, he must start a fire. Works are the smoke. They are the effect. Do we want to light a fire? Don't threaten people with judgment. The law did that and it did not produce even one righteous person. Instead, give them Jesus!!! He stands and knocks.

 

[Wormwood]

williemac,

Thanks for the response. I must disagree with you that sin is not a sign of unbelief. I think this is a constant theme in Scripture. However, I would clarify that "faith" implies belief in the truth. Sometimes the problem is not lack of resolve but being moved by deceptive teaching (such as works based righteousness as you mention...which is the point of Galatians). Revelation is full of this concept of the significance of faith as a means of fleeing sin and inheriting eternal life (Rev. 2:10, 13; 3:3, 10; 13:10; 14:12; 17:14). Moreover, Jesus is continually declared to be the one who was "faithful and true" which is fitting since he conquered through faithful obedence even to death..which is kinda the whole point of Revelation.

Yes, you are right that he stands at the door and knocks. But in that same letter to Laodicea he threatens to spit them out of his mouth also. Im not suggesting that people earn their salvation. But I am saying that Christians are not Gnostics. Our faith is not just a rubber stamp on a list of ideas. They are evidenced by a life of ongoing trust and obedience. Jesus tells stories of "faithful" servants who are obedient to their master's commands when he is absent. Their belief in the master's return causes a change in behavior, and if it doesnt, then they either never did believe or quit believing while the master tarried. Jesus is clear that those who said the master was gone a long time and quit expecting his return is what caused them to begin to get drunk and beat the other servants. They quit believing and so their began to disobey.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I wonder if we being so 'spiritual' don't teach the "law of Moses" as a 'pragmatic moral guide/principle' but now teach the law of man and I think it's called vain philosophy. So instead of getting sound principles from scripture to guide our everyday behavior and thoughts we use our enlightened age's wisdom.

WoW we really have advanced "spiritually". {sarcasm off} :mellow: