The most "evident" truth of scripture

[williemac]

williemac,

Thanks for the response. I must disagree with you that sin is not a sign of unbelief. I think this is a constant theme in Scripture. However, I would clarify that "faith" implies belief in the truth. Sometimes the problem is not lack of resolve but being moved by deceptive teaching (such as works based righteousness as you mention...which is the point of Galatians). Revelation is full of this concept of the significance of faith as a means of fleeing sin and inheriting eternal life (Rev. 2:10, 13; 3:3, 10; 13:10; 14:12; 17:14). Moreover, Jesus is continually declared to be the one who was "faithful and true" which is fitting since he conquered through faithful obedence even to death..which is kinda the whole point of Revelation.

Yes, you are right that he stands at the door and knocks. But in that same letter to Laodicea he threatens to spit them out of his mouth also. Im not suggesting that people earn their salvation. But I am saying that Christians are not Gnostics. Our faith is not just a rubber stamp on a list of ideas. They are evidenced by a life of ongoing trust and obedience. Jesus tells stories of "faithful" servants who are obedient to their master's commands when he is absent. Their belief in the master's return causes a change in behavior, and if it doesnt, then they either never did believe or quit believing while the master tarried. Jesus is clear that those who said the master was gone a long time and quit expecting his return is what caused them to begin to get drunk and beat the other servants. They quit believing and so their began to disobey.

Just to clarify on the Laodicean church. Jesus did not "also" threaten to spew them out of His mouth. There was a problem with them that He was bringing to light. They assumed that they were experiencing all that was to experience. Jesus told them that there was something missing. He is what was missing. One needs to start at the beginning and follow the progress of the passage. Lukewarmness comes from not being cold...as in they were following Jesus..BUT.. not being hot...as in they did not have a relationship with Him through His indwelling presence.

But FYI..., in Heb.6:1-6, we find that the author gives an incredible insight into what happens when one falls away. He says that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. This is why he said it was unnecessary to re do the foundations. Life is given one time and one time only. It cannot be repeated. Read it for yourself.

So, if you say that a person quits believing, my question is..just what was it that they were believing? If a Christian falls into sin, do we say that they are in unbelief and have fallen away from the faith altogether? If that is the case, then according to Heb.6, this spells the permanent end for that person. You really want to go there?

As well, the significance of faith is not to flee sin and be saved. It is to have sins remitted. Why do we have a requirement to flee that which is being taken away? Which is it? Do we remove it from ourselves, or does God remove it from us?

The significance of faith is that through it, we are set free from the consequences of sin. Please read John 5:24. In it, Jesus states that through faith, one passes from death to life, and will be exempt from judgment. Do you know how we defeat sin? We escape judgment. This is what faith does for us.

Our good works, our love, our good behavior, all are important and significant. But the problem is that there are many unsaved, unbelieving people on this planet who are just as loving, just as moral, and just as benevolent as many and even most Christians. But because they don't accept God's act of reconciliation, many not even believing there is a God, they are dead in their sin.
The only difference between these and us is that we have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for sin.....haven't we? As well, there are many legalists who are doing all these thing without faith, as they feel they are being saved as a result. Have they accepted the sacrifice?

Hey, we all have good works. We all have a better handle on morality than before we were saved. We all have more love, joy, and peace than we would if we didn't know Jesus.

Many of the examples and parables and teachings that came from Jesus were in the context of the old covenant. Jesus used the law to convince them of sin, just as the law was meant to be used. Let's not confuse these passages with new covenant principles.

Before the cross, the road to destruction was broad. But God made a promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. John had a vision of a multitude standing before the throne, that no one could number. God is not in the business of blocking the way into life. He is in the business of creating life. We are a new creation. This happened in an instant. How well we live out this new creation will affect our rewards...but not our salvation.

But before we go putting faith on the hot seat, I will add that faith is not the qualification for life. It is simply a means by which we receive it. The actual qualification is humility. This is found in such places as Luke 18:10-14. God gives grace to the humble. Thus the leaven of the law was around in Paul's day and he was grieved in knowing that after his departure, it would still persist. This is due to those who want to retain at least some measure of self justification. But God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. By grace we are saved, through faith. This gift is not of ourselves..not of works lest any man should boast. But I should add that ..not of moral behavior (also a work of law, sin being transgression of law)...lest any man should also boast. O yes.. a believer can sin...and an unbeliever can be moral.

 

[Wormwood]

Just to clarify on the Laodicean church. Jesus did not "also" threaten to spew them out of His mouth. There was a problem with them that He was bringing to light. They assumed that they were experiencing all that was to experience. Jesus told them that there was something missing. He is what was missing. One needs to start at the beginning and follow the progress of the passage. Lukewarmness comes from not being cold...as in they were following Jesus..BUT.. not being hot...as in they did not have a relationship with Him through His indwelling presence.

But FYI..., in Heb.6:1-6, we find that the author gives an incredible insight into what happens when one falls away. He says that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. This is why he said it was unnecessary to re do the foundations. Life is given one time and one time only. It cannot be repeated. Read it for yourself.

So, if you say that a person quits believing, my question is..just what was it that they were believing? If a Christian falls into sin, do we say that they are in unbelief and have fallen away from the faith altogether? If that is the case, then according to Heb.6, this spells the permanent end for that person. You really want to go there?

As well, the significance of faith is not to flee sin and be saved. It is to have sins remitted. Why do we have a requirement to flee that which is being taken away? Which is it? Do we remove it from ourselves, or does God remove it from us?

The significance of faith is that through it, we are set free from the consequences of sin. Please read John 5:24. In it, Jesus states that through faith, one passes from death to life, and will be exempt from judgment. Do you know how we defeat sin? We escape judgment. This is what faith does for us.

Our good works, our love, our good behavior, all are important and significant. But the problem is that there are many unsaved, unbelieving people on this planet who are just as loving, just as moral, and just as benevolent as many and even most Christians. But because they don't accept God's act of reconciliation, many not even believing there is a God, they are dead in their sin.
The only difference between these and us is that we have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for sin.....haven't we? As well, there are many legalists who are doing all these thing without faith, as they feel they are being saved as a result. Have they accepted the sacrifice?

Hey, we all have good works. We all have a better handle on morality than before we were saved. We all have more love, joy, and peace than we would if we didn't know Jesus.

Many of the examples and parables and teachings that came from Jesus were in the context of the old covenant. Jesus used the law to convince them of sin, just as the law was meant to be used. Let's not confuse these passages with new covenant principles.

Before the cross, the road to destruction was broad. But God made a promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. John had a vision of a multitude standing before the throne, that no one could number. God is not in the business of blocking the way into life. He is in the business of creating life. We are a new creation. This happened in an instant. How well we live out this new creation will affect our rewards...but not our salvation.

But before we go putting faith on the hot seat, I will add that faith is not the qualification for life. It is simply a means by which we receive it. The actual qualification is humility. This is found in such places as Luke 18:10-14. God gives grace to the humble. Thus the leaven of the law was around in Paul's day and he was grieved in knowing that after his departure, it would still persist. This is due to those who want to retain at least some measure of self justification. But God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. By grace we are saved, through faith. This gift is not of ourselves..not of works lest any man should boast. But I should add that ..not of moral behavior (also a work of law, sin being transgression of law)...lest any man should also boast. O yes.. a believer can sin...and an unbeliever can be moral.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you interpretation on Laodicea. Most modern scholars do not read the "cold" as a negative thing (and the passage indicates that Jesus would rather them be cold than lukewarm). Rather than write in detail on this, I'll just quote my favorite Revelation commentary:

[SIZE=medium]With the image of Jesus as the “faithful witness” in mind, the Laodicean Christians are indicted for being generally ineffective in their faith. Their innocuous witness is the specific focus. It was ineffective either because it was nonexistent or because it was consistently compromised by their participation in idolatrous facets of the Laodicean culture (probably the same kind of compromise envisioned in the letters to Pergamum and Thyatira: see on 2:12–29).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]G. K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1999), 303.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]A more recent interpretation takes the metaphor differently. The picture of hot, cold, and lukewarm water is seen as a unique feature of Laodicea and the surrounding region in the first century. The hot waters of Hierapolis had a medicinal effect and the cold waters of Colossae were pure, drinkable, and had a life-giving effect. However, there is evidence that Laodicea had access only to warm water, which was not very palatable and caused nausea. Indeed, Laodicea had grown as a town because its position was conducive for commerce, but it was far from good water. When the city tried to pipe water in, it could manage only to obtain tepid, emetic water. “The effect of their conduct on Christ was like the effect of their own water” — Christ wanted “to spew them out of his mouth.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]G. K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1999), 303.[/SIZE]

Thus, the point is very simple in my mind. Jesus stands and the door and knocks so they will buy real riches from him rather than continuing to allow their cultural precedents to compromise their faith. If they do not respond, he will indeed spit the lukewarm believers from his mouth.

As far as faith and sin go, I think you are jumping ahead of me here. Yes, I do believe that sin is due to a failure in faith. This could be a lack of knowledge of the truth so faith is limited or due to unbelief that results in disobedience. I think Romans 14:23 backs this notion. Yet I would ask you just to consider this practically for a moment. If a person who is a Christian gets on their computer to view pornography there is a problem. Either 1) the Christian has a very immature faith and doesn't know that such acts are an offense to a holy God or 2) they know what they are doing is wrong but they are not fully relying on the Spirit to satisfy their deepest needs so they turn to this particular sin. The same is true with any sin. The more a person is confronted and filled with the truth, the less they will sin. That is the process of sanctification the Holy Spirit brings into our lives and is part of the evidence that we belong to Jesus and are being changed by his grace.

What I am NOT saying is that if a person sins they are condemned as an unbeliever. A person can struggle with sin and unbelief and not be faithless. Perhaps their faith is lacking and immature (as we see Paul rebuking the Galatians, Corinthian, and so forth due to their immaturity and failure to follow the truth) but this does not mean they have no faith. Also, you bring up an important section of Scripture in Hebrews 6. Yes, I believe that someone who falls away will not be brought back to repentance. However, notice the phrase, "be brought back to repentance." I believe a person can get to a point in their life where the are no longer struggling with unbelief, but are willing to completely disown Christ. When a person does this, they are incapable of repenting and turning back. This means they will not turn back away from their sin of unbelief and rejection of Jesus. Its not like this is a person struggling with sin and so Jesus is casting them away. This is a person who casts away Jesus and therefore will never be capable of embracing him again because God will not allow the blood of Jesus to be trampled (Hebrews 10:29-31).

Your points about unbelievers being "moral" really has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not arguing for morality as a means of salvation. I am saying that only God's grace saves us and that is through faith. Biblical faith is not a list of ideas but placing oneself under the LORDSHIP of Jesus. If someone claims Jesus as their "Lord" but does not live as though he is their Lord, whats the point? This is not faith nor is this really making Jesus one's Lord. Jesus says that such people will be cast away. Our faith does not lead to antinomianism, quite the opposite (cf. Rom. 6:1-2).

 

[williemac]

Well, I'm going to disagree with you interpretation on Laodicea. Most modern scholars do not read the "cold" as a negative thing (and the passage indicates that Jesus would rather them be cold than lukewarm). Rather than write in detail on this, I'll just quote my favorite Revelation commentary:


Thus, the point is very simple in my mind. Jesus stands and the door and knocks so they will buy real riches from him rather than continuing to allow their cultural precedents to compromise their faith. If they do not respond, he will indeed spit the lukewarm believers from his mouth.

As far as faith and sin go, I think you are jumping ahead of me here. Yes, I do believe that sin is due to a failure in faith. This could be a lack of knowledge of the truth so faith is limited or due to unbelief that results in disobedience. I think Romans 14:23 backs this notion. Yet I would ask you just to consider this practically for a moment. If a person who is a Christian gets on their computer to view pornography there is a problem. Either 1) the Christian has a very immature faith and doesn't know that such acts are an offense to a holy God or 2) they know what they are doing is wrong but they are not fully relying on the Spirit to satisfy their deepest needs so they turn to this particular sin. The same is true with any sin. The more a person is confronted and filled with the truth, the less they will sin. That is the process of sanctification the Holy Spirit brings into our lives and is part of the evidence that we belong to Jesus and are being changed by his grace.

What I am NOT saying is that if a person sins they are condemned as an unbeliever. A person can struggle with sin and unbelief and not be faithless. Perhaps their faith is lacking and immature (as we see Paul rebuking the Galatians, Corinthian, and so forth due to their immaturity and failure to follow the truth) but this does not mean they have no faith. Also, you bring up an important section of Scripture in Hebrews 6. Yes, I believe that someone who falls away will not be brought back to repentance. However, notice the phrase, "be brought back to repentance." I believe a person can get to a point in their life where the are no longer struggling with unbelief, but are willing to completely disown Christ. When a person does this, they are incapable of repenting and turning back. This means they will not turn back away from their sin of unbelief and rejection of Jesus. Its not like this is a person struggling with sin and so Jesus is casting them away. This is a person who casts away Jesus and therefore will never be capable of embracing him again because God will not allow the blood of Jesus to be trampled (Hebrews 10:29-31).

Your points about unbelievers being "moral" really has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not arguing for morality as a means of salvation. I am saying that only God's grace saves us and that is through faith. Biblical faith is not a list of ideas but placing oneself under the LORDSHIP of Jesus. If someone claims Jesus as their "Lord" but does not live as though he is their Lord, whats the point? This is not faith nor is this really making Jesus one's Lord. Jesus says that such people will be cast away. Our faith does not lead to antinomianism, quite the opposite (cf. Rom. 6:1-2).

Nice reply. For the most part, I get what you are saying. However, I still maintain that you may not have read the progression of Jesus' comments to the lukewarm church. He is offering to come into any "individual" (if anyone hears My voice), and have fellowship with this person. This is the solution to their lukewarmness. He specifically said that they did not know they were missing that which will make them rich, have sight, and be clothed. Out of sheer logic alone, we know these come with the indwelling presence of the Spirit. They were not in need of better works. They were in need of relationship with Jesus through His indwelling presence. Inferior works do not make one blind and naked. The absence of the Spirit does. I thought this would have been a no-brainer. I don't agree with the practice of some, who apply the term "lukewarm" in meanings outside of the context, then pulling it into the context to put words in Jesus' mouth concerning why He might spew some out of His mouth. Jesus had a specific point with the term.

As for your last point, we have a basic difference as to the use of the word 'faith'. The two uses for this word are not to be confused with each other. The faith you speak of is not the same faith that accesses grace. You are using the word as one's religion. Our religion certainly does recognize moral validity, as you most eloquently put it. Paul did such in Rom.7. He agreed with the law. He served the law in his mind, though he admitted his inability to satisfy it. Therefore he disassociated his sin with his identity.

This is an important revelation. It is all about the mindset. Love the law. Hate your sin. However, we need to be reminded time and again on these kinds of topics that Jesus promised that whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. No one is getting away with insubordination. But casting them away? What about John 5:24? Casting one away implies judgment. Did He lie?

 

[HiddenManna]

One man's lawlessness affects what happens in the world...especially for the Christian. The church is responsible for it's abandoning holiness. This abandoning of holiness has caused a shift away from righteousness both in the church and in society. The church is being led by society now not so much by the Holy Spirit.

The whole world is in "lawlessness" apart from the Spirit of God. No flesh of man is holy, only those who have and walk in the Holy Spirit are holy. The law is not the answer, grace is that which teaches us to deny ungodliness;

Tit 2:11

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The prosecution was executed upon our Lord on our behalf. This is Christianity. We have the gospel. (good news)
As for now, He chastens those who sin. He doesn't condemn His own. ( John 5:24). If we read the latter part of Rom.7, and Luke 18:10-14, we can find a common theme. We can see that God looks at the heart and mind, and not merely the outward events. We can see a sinner being justified because of his attitude and not by moral success. God gives grace to the humble.

As for laxness, I don't see love as being lax. The commandments of the new covenant are faith and love (1John 3:23).

Christianity is the only religion that offers love, joy, and peace in spite of an individual's circumstance or situation. This is not laxness. It is what God has offered to the heart. It is what inspires us to bear fruit. Blessings, Howie

williemac, no doubt you are blessed, for you see the simplicty of the gospel? Faith working by love, ALL OBEDIENCE in the New Covenant is not to the "letter'' but to the Spirit. To obey from the heart is the fulfillment of all righteousness.

 

[Wormwood]

Nice reply. For the most part, I get what you are saying. However, I still maintain that you may not have read the progression of Jesus' comments to the lukewarm church. He is offering to come into any "individual" (if anyone hears My voice), and have fellowship with this person. This is the solution to their lukewarmness. He specifically said that they did not know they were missing that which will make them rich, have sight, and be clothed. Out of sheer logic alone, we know these come with the indwelling presence of the Spirit. They were not in need of better works. They were in need of relationship with Jesus through His indwelling presence. Inferior works do not make one blind and naked. The absence of the Spirit does. I thought this would have been a no-brainer. I don't agree with the practice of some, who apply the term "lukewarm" in meanings outside of the context, then pulling it into the context to put words in Jesus' mouth concerning why He might spew some out of His mouth. Jesus had a specific point with the term.

As for your last point, we have a basic difference as to the use of the word 'faith'. The two uses for this word are not to be confused with each other. The faith you speak of is not the same faith that accesses grace. You are using the word as one's religion. Our religion certainly does recognize moral validity, as you most eloquently put it. Paul did such in Rom.7. He agreed with the law. He served the law in his mind, though he admitted his inability to satisfy it. Therefore he disassociated his sin with his identity.

This is an important revelation. It is all about the mindset. Love the law. Hate your sin. However, we need to be reminded time and again on these kinds of topics that Jesus promised that whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. No one is getting away with insubordination. But casting them away? What about John 5:24? Casting one away implies judgment. Did He lie?

Williemac,

Thank you. Well, as I read Revelation, these letters are written to the "churches." Thus, it seems to me that these people already have the indwelling Christ and that Jesus is encouraging and correcting his own. I think this is why he says things like, "I will remove your lampstand from its place." All of these people belong to Christ in my estimation and Jesus' continual challenge to each of the churches is to "overcome." They must not wilt by the temptations and persecutions but must overcome the enemy by their trust in Jesus. That's my take.

Hmmm... I don't think that is what I am saying. I understand "faith" can be a broad concept. In Hebrews, I do believe these people are saved and are in danger of turning from the faith. Again, in John 5:24 "faith" is a present participle. This means "faith" or "belief" is an ongoing action. Jesus will not condemn those who "are believing." However, this verse would not apply, in my opinion, to someone who once believed but now has disowned Jesus and the Gospel. They are not "believing." There is no condemnation "in Christ." However, if someone is not abiding "in Christ" through faith, then they stand condemned already because they are not "believing" in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[HiddenManna]

To discuss the issue of abiding in faith, and the warnings and instruction of scripture on the issue of continued faith, apart from understanding that "most" of the warnings of "turning" from true faith are made to those who desire to turn back into works of the law. (any part of the law).

Those who seek to be justified by the Ten Commandments are not in faith. The law is the law, it is not "broken" into parts that religion can pick and choose. Its "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW"

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[Episkopos]

To discuss the issue of abiding in faith, and the warnings and instruction of scripture on the issue of continued faith, apart from understanding that "most" of the warnings of "turning" from true faith are made to those who desire to turn back into works of the law. (any part of the law).

Those who seek to be justified by the Ten Commandments are not in faith. The law is the law, it is not "broken" into parts that religion can pick and choose. Its "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW"

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[williemac]

Williemac,

Thank you. Well, as I read Revelation, these letters are written to the "churches." Thus, it seems to me that these people already have the indwelling Christ and that Jesus is encouraging and correcting his own. I think this is why he says things like, "I will remove your lampstand from its place." All of these people belong to Christ in my estimation and Jesus' continual challenge to each of the churches is to "overcome." They must not wilt by the temptations and persecutions but must overcome the enemy by their trust in Jesus. That's my take.

Thank for your reply. I am going to advise that you don't use logic to discredit the text (not that you meant to do that). Just follow the context. And while at it, I suggest you don't let anyone else do your thinking for you. The scholars don't all agree with one another either. But the context is what it is. Follow the progression. They were called wretched, poor, miserable, blind, and naked. There was another church if you recall, that had a name as though they were alive, but Jesus said they were dead. Even today, there are churches that are Christian in name only.

How is it that a lamp stand can be removed, when Jesus assured us in John 5:24 that those who are of faith will not be judged, but have passed from death to life, having everlasting life? The only way is through judgement. Therefore there is something missing. These are not regenerated and are not exempt from judgment.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Funny you should pull this out of its context. If you care to follow Paul's letter a little further, you will find that this indeed might have been the game plan, but unfortunately, no one succeeded. No man on the face of the earth under the law managed to be justified by doing the law. This was the point that Paul was getting to. Rom.3:19...." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (vs20) " Therefore be the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin ( vs23).." for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" c'mon, man. How do you mange to walk right into this? You think you were not going to be called on it?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

FOOTNOTE: The Associate Minister unveiled the church's new tithing campaign slogan last Sunday "I upped my pledge - Up yours." (not a law. A notice in a church bulletin).

Up yours... that's priceless.

Christianity is not an immunity from prosecution for sin.

As chief prosecuting attorney, that is exactly what satan tries to convince people to believe.

 

[Episkopos]

Up yours... that's priceless.


As chief prosecuting attorney, that is exactly what satan tries to convince people to believe.

Do you think the Holy Spirit makes us irresponsible?

Thank for your reply. I am going to advise that you don't use logic to discredit the text (not that you meant to do that). Just follow the context. And while at it, I suggest you don't let anyone else do your thinking for you. The scholars don't all agree with one another either. But the context is what it is. Follow the progression. They were called wretched, poor, miserable, blind, and naked. There was another church if you recall, that had a name as though they were alive, but Jesus said they were dead. Even today, there are churches that are Christian in name only.

How is it that a lamp stand can be removed, when Jesus assured us in John 5:24 that those who are of faith will not be judged, but have passed from death to life, having everlasting life? The only way is through judgement. Therefore there is something missing. These are not regenerated and are not exempt from judgment.

Funny you should pull this out of its context. If you care to follow Paul's letter a little further, you will find that this indeed might have been the game plan, but unfortunately, no one succeeded. No man on the face of the earth under the law managed to be justified by doing the law. This was the point that Paul was getting to. Rom.3:19...." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (vs20) " Therefore be the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin ( vs23).." for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" c'mon, man. How do you mange to walk right into this? You think you were not going to be called on it?

This is not about trying to justify oneself...it is about walking by faith. So as we walk by faith we fulfill the law.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith keeps the law. We overcome sin by faith.

 

[HiddenManna]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Yes, all those who claim to "keep" the law are breakers of the law, and those who have been saved by grace and turn back to the law have rejected (fallen from) the saving grace of Christ.

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do you think the Holy Spirit makes us irresponsible?



This is not about trying to justify oneself...it is about walking by faith. So as we walk by faith we fulfill the law.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith keeps the law. We overcome sin by faith.

we fulfill the righteousness of the law, by "walking in the spirit and love" for he who loves has fulfilled the law (ALL of it) and lets look again to the context of Rom 3, in that Paul says we "establish" the law in its purpose?

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It is only those who reject all attempts to justify themselves by the law, that have "established" the law and its unbending standard as a witness against the sin of all men. So just as Paul makes clear the purpose of the law was to bring us to faith.

Those who yet seek to justify themselves by the law, deny its true standard and and have rejected its purpose.

 

[Just here]

Faith keeps the law. We overcome sin by faith.

What do you mean by "faith keeps the law"?

 

[Episkopos]

What do you mean by "faith keeps the law"?

In other words what works of the law could not accomplish in the doing of the law...faith does! With God all things are possible.

 

[Just here]

In other words what works of the law could not accomplish in the doing of the law...faith does! With God all things are possible.

Would you agree, faith takes us beyond "doing of the law"?

 

[marksman]

If our Christianity does not uphold the commandments of God...then we are worse than sinners.

I am not sure I understand this comment in the present context and in the context of what I said.

What I listed were not the commandments of God. They were the commandments of man which you don't find in scripture.

That being the case, we are not required to submit to them.

Christianity is the only religion that offers love, joy, and peace in spite of an individual's circumstance or situation. This is not laxness. It is what God has offered to the heart. It is what inspires us to bear fruit. Blessings, Howie

Just to emphasise this point, we tend to judge things by what we see and experience as in if you have an unloving church, how can the gospel be about love, joy and peace.

On the other side of the coin and I think that this is more convincing, a standard refrain of muslims who have converted to christianity (on penalty of death), said that they left a religion of hate for a religion of love.

Our faith is not just a rubber stamp on a list of ideas.

Yes, yes and yes.

 

[HiddenManna]

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear? So here is the first truth, that every man that comes to God must first cast aside his own righteousness as filthy rags. Those who attempt to justify themselves by the "letter" are yet seeking to justify their own flesh.

Let us be clear as to the law in which Paul was speaking? The whole idea of the law being "broken" into parts is just a product of mans religion. The "law" is "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" - "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW" and the Ten Commandments are the core and foundation of all the law. To attempt to seperate the law into portions is to reject its true standard and bring in down to a false standard whereby man may seek to establish his own righteousness, thus rejecting Gods Righteousness.


Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.


2Co 3:7

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: (Ten Commandments)
2Co 3:8

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[marksman]

To attempt to [SIZE=14.399999618530273px]separate[/SIZE] the law into portions is to reject its true standard and bring in down to a false standard whereby man may seek to establish his own righteousness, thus rejecting Gods Righteousness.

May I suggest that this is standard practice for the evangelical church. We pick and choose which parts of the bible we will invest in as it suits our dogma and reject those that challenges our understanding of scripture.

As a classic example, even if we do believe the 10 commandments are relevant for us today, we reject the fourth one because it does not fit in with our way of doing things. Not only do we reject it, we invent all sorts of ideas to justify ignoring it.

Another example is the cessationist doctrine that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer relevant because we have the bible as it is easier to believe that, than put yourself on the line and prove the gospel by signs and wonders. As a result, the cessationist doctrine produces lifeless and powerless christianity.

Another example is all the denominations that we have today. We pick and choose the one that suits our interpretation of scripture or we start one because the current church can't accept our understanding of scripture. I believe there are at least 35,000 denominations worldwide.

 

[williemac]

Do you think the Holy Spirit makes us irresponsible?



This is not about trying to justify oneself...it is about walking by faith. So as we walk by faith we fulfill the law.

Rom_3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Faith keeps the law. We overcome sin by faith.

Just noticed this reply. Sorry it took so long. Again, an out of context quote (Rom.3:31). Nowhere in the context does Paul say anything about faith keeping the law. The way that faith overcomes sin is that we put our faith in the blood of the lamb rather than our obedience to law. The blood of the Lamb has given us remission of sin. Jesus is the only one who ever overcame sin. He is the only one who never sinned.

We did not nor will we ever overcome it through the works of law. It is not our task nor our mandate, nor our role, to overcome sin through personal behavior. Through the blood of Jesus our sin has been forgiven and it has been remitted. Because of our faith in Him and His sacrifice there is no longer any sin to overcome. Human sin cannot be overcome. There is only one solution to it. Death. It has been punished. This is the only solution to it that is acceptable to God. We died with Christ. We do not need to overcome that which has been punished,unless we somehow don't accept the punishment that was rendered on our behalf for our sin.

Our abstaining from sin does not translate to the same as overcoming it. Our personal triumphs are not to be placed before God for justification. This would be a slap in the face of grace. This would amount to having something of which to boast. God is not impressed with man's pride. Our salvation is a gift that excludes all cause or potential for boasting.

 

[Wormwood]

How is it that a lamp stand can be removed, when Jesus assured us in John 5:24 that those who are of faith will not be judged, but have passed from death to life, having everlasting life? The only way is through judgement. Therefore there is something missing. These are not regenerated and are not exempt from judgment.

Well, I am not a Calvinist so I am not bound in my interpretation to satisfy "Preseverence of the Saints" assumptions.

 

[williemac]

Well, I am not a Calvinist so I am not bound in my interpretation to satisfy "Preseverence of the Saints" assumptions.

I am not a Calvinist either. What's your point? I am not satisfying an assumption. I am reading a text. It says, (and these are the words of Jesus), that those who believe are exempt from judgment, having passed from death to life (possessing everlasting life). John 5:24. How can anyone misinterpret this passage? It is one of the most direct and obvious promises that I have found. Why does it become such a stumbling stone for some?